Question for all black men

[medjay]

Like all other sexual fantasies, there's nothing wrong with them. They shouldn't be harshly judged against a writing standard that really doesn't apply to them. You can't judge sexual fantasy with a sexual fiction ruler, and likewise you can't judge sexual fiction with a sexual fantasy ruler. They will always fall short because they were never desinged to meet the objectives of the other.

Lots of good points. I guess I can't judge writing standards in this instance. Apples and oranges, right?

Still, it seems to me, the more mean-spirited and vulgar the story, the less clarity the writing has. I guess it all goes back to my earlier point of knowing what type of audience you intend to cater to.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Ooooh, I'm sure to be attacked now!

I promised myself not to bring up this argument, as I don't want enemies on this nice and funny website, but if I try to keep it mild, maybe not so many will hate me for it.

I think one of the reasons why we have people fantasizing about black men as jungle creatures with giant dicks and huge sex drives, is because of USA itself. My boyfriend, who is a black american man, have discussed this with me many times, and I gather that Americans still

• feel that sex is a bit dirty, and if you're giving in to your sexual needs and desires, that = you getting down and dirty
• see people on an invisible scale, with white buisnessmen at the top and black housewives at the bottom, and
• the combination "getting down and dirty" and "a low-life letting out your inner slut" works well together in fantasy.
  [/list=a]
  
  I'm not saying that my own country, Sweden, is some kind of paradise where no-one is racistic or have any kind of sexual hang-ups, I'm just saying that it seems to me that this is more usual in USA. My boyfriend thinks it has its roots in the fact that religion still have a very strong hold of americans. Church doesn't cheer on sexual joy, and therefor, exploring and enjoying ones sexuality is like a child doing something the parents would disapprove of, just to enjoy feeling "naughty".
  
  I would not ask people to give up their fantasies, nor to concentrate on being PC while they're having sex, but I can't shake the feeling that we're all responsible for creating and maintaining the kind of world we want to live in. I'm not asking for advice on how to be PC, but on how to be considerate.

 

[Ulyssa]

Re: Ooooh, I'm sure to be attacked now!

My boyfriend thinks it has its roots in the fact that religion still have a very strong hold of americans. Church doesn't cheer on sexual joy, and therefor, exploring and enjoying ones sexuality is like a child doing something the parents would disapprove of, just to enjoy feeling "naughty".

Amen, sister! So many fundamentalists can't abide evolution--not because they don't understand it, but because they understand it too well. Evolution essentially boils down to sex and death. And the church is definately against those two things.

 

[medjay]

Re: Ooooh, I'm sure to be attacked now!

I promised myself not to bring up this argument, as I don't want enemies on this nice and funny website, but if I try to keep it mild, maybe not so many will hate me for it.

LOL! No one can attack you because you're absolutely right! American hang-ups about sex are pretty sad. I thought it was extremely funny the first time I visited a foriegn country and saw that the porno shops actually propped the doors open and had windows you can see through, unlike the ones here.

 

[tenyari]

Re: Another answer to the question from a source who knows.

As a favor to him, I do not use the N-word in my writing. As a favor to me, I do not condone a black man calling my main character "bitch" or using any of the domination and humiliation tactics which so many other authors bring to their work.

Dialogue should be true to character. But unless the intent of a story is one of a racist theme (as the black male dominating a white female seems to be from the perspective of one who'se never actually read the genre...)...
unless the story's theme is racist, you better make sure the dialogue and character make sense for who they are intended to portray.

A quick scan of my 'Naked Girl' story shows nigga used once, and nigger once.

Nigger by a KKK FBI agent in reference to why he didn't become a pastor of his church. "He'd even thought of becoming a pastor at his Baptist church, till they let that nigger family join."
Nigga in reference to a drive by shooting:
"Cops didn't care much, they made a show, but it was just another dead nigga wrapped in a bag. These things happen."
Both are out of dialogue, but it felt fitting to the moment to convey the kinds of emotions wrapped up in the subject at hand.

The cast of the story are people living in West Oakland (for the most part). Inner city types, and they speak in the language of that region. It's my own native turf, and I want to capture it faithfully.

'Bitch' occurs quite a bit, 12 references scattered between chapters 2 and 3.

The language used in this case reflects not race, but class and region.

These are the same people who send me anonymous--"Oh, I get it. You just don't like white men" emails. I stopped trying to answer that question a long time ago.

Weird. Try saying that publicly here and you'd get jumped by a mix of people... Publicly; San Francisco has zero tolerance for racism. The idea that somebody would be shocked by a mixed relationship is 'shocking' to our sense of values here. Private morals are another matter. Especially since the dot-com boom days when all the mid westeners flooded the area, not all of whom have left yet.

Though this fantasy does work for many people, it belongs in the non-consensual catagory.

Only if it is told as non consensual. There are people who do seek out "gang bangs".

 

[tenyari]

Re: Ooooh, I'm sure to be attacked now!

• see people on an invisible scale, with white buisnessmen at the top and black housewives at the bottom, and
  [/list=a]

• 
  Black housewives are nowhere near the bottom.
  
  Young black men are the bottom. At least the housewive's have a legal and moral right to be alive.
  
  Young black men have neither. They are near legal targets for being killed or enslaved (prison, which is just a low wage corporate work force), and society feels this is morally just.
  
  You may find that outrageous, but look at the statistics and how we fail to have any reaction at all to what's going on.
  
  That said, religion has a strong hold on Americans... Not just any religion though. We got sacked with the worst of what Europe had to offer in the 16-17 hundreds... and while ya'll moved past that for quite some time, we're still there stuck in the past.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Religion

Amen, sister! So many fundamentalists can't abide evolution--not because they don't understand it, but because they understand it too well. Evolution essentially boils down to sex and death. And the church is definately against those two things.

It seems to me that the church is not half as opposed to death as it it to sex. Dead people don't make any problem. Dead people don't protest. Dead people can be used to create martures.

Sex is a very powerful force, that makes people feel alive. Anything that make people strong instead of subdued, is a threat to the church's power over people.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Ooooh, I'm sure to be attacked now!

LOL! No one can attack you because you're absolutely right! American hang-ups about sex are pretty sad. I thought it was extremely funny the first time I visited a foriegn country and saw that the porno shops actually propped the doors open and had windows you can see through, unlike the ones here.

I live in a small/medium sized Swedish town, and we have as many as TWO (!) sex shops here. One for women, one for men. Or actually, it's just that the last one is much nicer to go to, so women tend to prefer that. It has underwear and stuff in the window, and sells condoms and dildos and other toys. No secrets.

The second one is a bit... less fresh. It's in a basement, and it has a sign outside with a flying penis on it. In the basement, they sell sex toys, latex underwear, condoms, and porno movies. You may also rent the movies, or watch them in a booth. (I feel so sorry for the cleaning woman...)

That's how it's done in Sweden...

(And yes, religion is pretty weak in our country.)

 

[Ulyssa]

Re: Religion

It seems to me that the church is not half as opposed to death as it it to sex. Dead people don't make any problem. Dead people don't protest. Dead people can be used to create martures.

Here's the only point where we might disagree, Svenskaflicka--organized Christianity hates death--not dead people--Death!

Thus they've developed a labyrinth of "Life after death" schematics with "people who think exactly like me" going to my heaven, and everybody else going to hell.

However, I've seen my sister-in-law's idea of heaven, and believe me, it would be my idea of hell.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

People have different ways of handling their fear of death, taxes , unemployment, boredom, etc. Some drink. Some watch soap operas. Some pray.

And the rest of us do the only sound thing - go shopping.

 

[Guest]

And the rest of us do the only sound thing - go shopping.

Or write stories.

 

[apmadox]

Myself a big fan of the interracial section, I do sometimes get a bit curious with all the clichés, as for example three black men having sex with one white woman, and while getting udnressed, the first one whips out a 10 inch dick, the second a 12 inch one, and the third topping them all by waving a 14 inch dick like a giant sword.
Now, my question:

Where should one draw the line when it comes to racial issues?
Do black men find it insulting to be described as sex-starved creatures with equipments of mythical proportions, or is it harmless fun?

And another thing, what about the language? Are words like "nigger" and "nigga" acceptable as a part of the dirty talk that often spices up an erotic story, or are words like that offending?
Svenskaflicka

I've read a little of Samuel Delaney's work. He's black, gay and writes science fiction with a lot of sexual psychology in it.

One of the things he points out is that we are often sexually excited by the things that we find morally or politically repugnant. For example, a feminist may have a secret fantasy about being forced to have sex, or being submissive.

I am black, and admit that I find the well-written cliche interracial stories you describe intensely exciting. At the same time, I recognize that they are stereotypical, as Medjay says. My hypothesis is that a lot of those stories about hung, insatiable, dominant black men lusting after white women is actually a popular white male fantasy derived from an obsession with dick size and female sexuality. But hey, I get off on it, and I've been involved with at least one white woman who does too.

I appreciate the stories that recognize these stereotypes and spoof them a bit - I think notbillyb, for example, has written some very good stories that parody the sort of cliche you're talking about by taking it way over the top. But I realize that most authors, as Medjay said, are writing from ignorance, even if they make me hard.

As to the n-word, the only thing that I can say is, in the right context, spoken by the right character, it can add to the realism. But personally, I would stay away from it in a sex story, because I know who my audience is, and it's just not necessary.

I read Room-Mating and didn't find it stereotypical at all. My guess is that if you care about this enough to actually get other people's opinions, you don't need to worry. Keep writing.

-apm

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Thank you for your very insightful and thought-through answer, apmadox. True, I think that we are often secretely drawn to what we actually find repulsive. I wonder if that has something to do with that those repulsive things stir up so many strong, indignant feelings inside of us, and that we, once aroused, slide over to sexual arousal..?

However...

I'm mainly having this thread in order to calm my own worries about maybe stepping on someone's toes, as well as hoping to influence other writers to go for consideration and realism in their interracial works.

apmadox, it would be very interesting to know what you think of my a bit more risqué story 12 Hearts, ch.3: Down, boy! ...?

 

[tenyari]

I just recieved an anonymous email which bears something of a tangent to this discussion:

I've posted it and my response here:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2432067#post2432067

Essentially someone blaming rap for the "problems" in black society. As feedback to my story; which has no references to rap in it anywhere...

-shrug-

 

[Angeline]

Context! Context! Context!

When is it "ok" to use racial, gender, or other epithets in writing--ones that will no doubt hurt somebody? Well, I think it's all about context. If you were writing fiction about antebellum life on some plantation, presumably the white owners aren't going to be politically correct a la 2002. On the other hand, you might want to question why you're writing about that in the first place. Not to suggest that there aren't legitimate reasons to do so or that it doesn't make for good literature, but most of what I've seen in that vein gets into weird prurient stuff that feels pretty racist to me.

Censorship is bad, very bad. I would--and do--support anyone's right to speak their own words, even if I personally find them repugnant. And for me that includes anything that perpetuates stereotypes that contribute to the oppression of any group of people for some stupid arbitrary reason.

Sensitivity to all this--at least for me in the USA circa 2002--is about awareness, about acknowledging the vast gulf of understanding between whites and nonwhites. I mean we are all human, you know: "us" and "them" is an illusion. If you proceed with an awareness of that, an understanding that much interracial writing is (however unconsciously unintentional) furthering stereotypes that have no basis in truth rather than confronting real issues, and a willingness to speak up when you do recognize these hurtful generalizations, I think you're on the right track.

(gets off soapbox, picks it up, and quietly walks out)

 

[medjay]

I just recieved an anonymous email which bears something of a tangent to this discussion:

I've posted it and my response here:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2432067#post2432067

Essentially someone blaming rap for the "problems" in black society. As feedback to my story; which has no references to rap in it anywhere...

-shrug-

How bizarre! And yet, sadly, not surprising. You can't blame this person for being uninformed -- their only knowledge of hip hop probably comes from seeing Nelly or Ja Rule on TV all day -- but you can blame them for being insulting and too lazy to research a topic that they apparantly feel very strongly about.

I haven't read your stories yet but I assume they contain black characters. The fact that this person chose to rail against a genre of music that is widely associated with black culture shows once again how so many people think of blacks as just one big monolithic whole who all act and think exactly alike: All blacks listen to rap music, all blacks are good at sports, all blacks love fried chicken, etc., etc. And of course there's the notion that all black men have big dicks and can't keep their hands off white women which leads to the types of stories we've been discussing in this thread.

This person equating your story with rap music may be an unbelieveable stretch but we can see where it comes from.

 

[apmadox]

apmadox, it would be very interesting to know what you think of my a bit more risqué story 12 Hearts, ch.3: Down, boy! ...?

Svenska,

I haven't read the first two chapters, but I see Cora as being both prejudiced against and having an attraction to black men that she cannot admit to herself.

Hermes starts out complex, but I think his motivation becomes a little unclear as the story develops. He finds her snootiness to be a turnoff, but changes his stripes and becomes the sexual aggressor when he discovers her secret desire for black men. This is a little more troubling because he still thinks she is a snob.

At the end he seems to genuinely like her, even though she hasn't really done anything to change his opinion of her as arrogant. After all, she can fuck him and still be 'slumming'.

I wouldn't say that she can't win Hermes over, it just seems that she does nothing that would.

Of course, this is all my reading of it - I could have missed something important - and other people may see it differently.

-apm

 

[Svenskaflicka]

OK, apm, you make a really good point, and this is the whole reason why I made up this thread in the first place - to get constructive criticism about delicate subjects.

It IS a bit unclear why Hermes, who's more into character than looks, falls for Cora. My idea, that he was teasing her for being a hypocrit, isn't too clear, it seems.

I'll work more on my character's development, and not rush things so much, in the future.

 

[cherrylips_au]

After reading through this thread I'm left wondering about the importance of empathasising a person's race at all?

When you are with another person intimately, you aren't seen as a black man/white woman or whatever combination is choosen. You are lovers, partners etc.

I would think with writing an erotic story it should be even more so, maybe that's one way to get beyond the stereotypes, concerntrate on the characters rather then their race.

 

[tenyari]

If you're story is just a stroke story, you don't need anything beyond moving genitalia.

But if your writing a story for the story, then you need to get character going. A large part of what identifies people and sets how they interact is race.

Especially if you're tale is set in an inter-racial society or a society that is very different from what you expect your audience to be.

For example, if I wrote a love story among the Pigmies in the 1100's I would probably have to do a lot of focus on their culture, and thus race; as most of the people reading the story are probably not familiar with Pigmies, let along as they existed at that point in time.

Likewise if I did a story set in my home region of the San Francisco Bay Area which has one of the most diverse cultural makeups in the world; race and culture become two seperate and very large issues (your culture != your race here by any stretch, you can meet white hoodrats, black jews, chinese muslims, Sherpa yuppie physicists, or Amazonian -as in the jungle- hippie technophile psychologists, and so on).

I am doing such a story by the way with my Naked Girl series.

btw; the last two examples in my above list are people I know. All of them are people I've seen or met.

In diverse communities like that, your story will break down if it glosses over the reality of the locale.

Sort of like how people used to always complain about how the entire cast of 90210 was white, despite supposedly living in a city which is largely non-white hispanic, black, and east-asian. To those who knew the community, it was jarring and made the series hard to accept. Hard to deal with -suspension of disbelief.


There's also the -blackface- genre. Which is really what all those black jungle bunny boning a white chic stories are. In these stories race is the central theme. Or rather, derogatory characterizations of race.

 

[Weird Harold]

...wondering about the importance of empathasising a person's race at all?

...You are lovers, partners etc.

...maybe that's one way to get beyond the stereotypes...

I think that you may have missed the point that most of this discussionhas been about the InterRacial story category. In that category, where people go to read about different races having sex, the racial differences are the main focus of the story. in that category, making the most of the racial differences is the whole point.

I write about characters of all races, but race is only mentioned as part of the description as a short-hand way of detailing general features.

I don't write "inter-racial" stories though; I write erotic stories that just happen to fit my color-blind view of the future and post them in the category that suits the tone of the story.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

After reading through this thread I'm left wondering about the importance of empathasising a person's race at all?

When you are with another person intimately, you aren't seen as a black man/white woman or whatever combination is choosen. You are lovers, partners etc.

I would think with writing an erotic story it should be even more so, maybe that's one way to get beyond the stereotypes, concerntrate on the characters rather then their race.

Very beautiful attitude.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Has anyone but me noticed that when Hollywood make films, they always do it so that if there are a black man and a black woman in the same movie, they are BOUND to end up a couple! I'd like to see some more interracial movies - it might stir up anger among racists, but it would also take away some of the big deal about interracial couples. In time, people would get used to it.

 

[cherrylips_au]

I think that you may have missed the point that most of this discussionhas been about the InterRacial story category. In that category, where people go to read about different races having sex, the racial differences are the main focus of the story. in that category, making the most of the racial differences is the whole point.

I write about characters of all races, but race is only mentioned as part of the description as a short-hand way of detailing general features.

I don't write "inter-racial" stories though; I write erotic stories that just happen to fit my color-blind view of the future and post them in the category that suits the tone of the story.

I didn't miss the point of the thread just offered a different view.
People aren't only defined by their race because if that was true then everyone of that race would have exactly the same ideas and lifestyles etc.
People are shaped by many things, personality, lifestyle, surrounds etc so I was just saying instead of making the issue the race of the characters make the people themselves the issues.

But then I don't usually read that catergory very often because most of what I have read has been derogatory to both race and sex of the characters involved.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Here in Sweden, election is coming up, and the different political parties are spreading their reclam all over the country. Yesterday, I got a pamphlet from a party called Sweden Democrats , which is a racist party - more than half of their candidates are ex-criminals, and their long-term program involves sending out immigrants who have lived here for 20 years already.

I was actually quite glad to find their pamphlet on my floor - I had just ran out of toilet paper!!!