Question for all black men

[Guest]

Yes I meant African American. I don't know what Alcoholics Anonymous people would say!

By using terms that separates the group members from the rest of the world, you only reenforces the myth that there are differences between us, and that there some how SHOULD be different groups in society!

I hear you. A very political English black hip hop artist , Root Manuva, has turned away from rapping in "Patois", the language used by Jamaicans when they want to talk without outsiders understanding. He uses a very common English accent. He talks about "Cheese on Toast" and "Drowning Ten Pints of Bitter", which is totally undivisive and includes white culture, a bit like a Gangsta rapper talking about "Apple Pie" and going to Baseball Games.


But, Svenska, I know there are bad connotations of racial "purity", and all, but you have to admit it's nice to see a lot of different types of people too. Dark, blue-black skin, thick oriental hair. And don't forget fair hair and grey or blue eyes. It may be common in Scandinavia, but 90% of people in the world have dark hair. So it's pretty special. There's something to be said for keeping the differences going!

As I said before, my kids are mixed race -- I'm the last person to advocate racial separation. Trouble is, it's not just about race, it's often about who has power. That's the thing that seems to cause all the trouble.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

True, it's a power thing. And no, I don't mind seeing different kinds of people. What I mind is the fact that when there are different groups in society, there will also follow hostility between the groups, and some will think that they are better than others, and treat the others badly.

That's why I'd like people to mix more - until we're all so used to each other that the color of your skin will mean as little as whether you use your left or right hand for writing!

 

[medjay]

You know what really chaps my hide?

Those dating shows on TV. They never -that I've seen- feature anything but pure-race people dating other pure-race people of the same race. And it's always either white or black.

Actually, I've watched blind date a couple of times and saw a white guy with a black woman and bi-racial guy with an asian woman. Still kind of rare but I'm just letting you know that it has happened.

 

[tenyari]

But a non-Jew using the Y - word is about as dangerous as a

What's the Y-word?
I grew up with a Jewish best friend and hung out with a number of jewish girls in school and I've never heard any 'Y-Word'.

Is this regional slang? Like the case I mention below...

By the way, in London, Afro-Carribeans encounter far less racism than Asians (indians). Outside of London, it's worse. The main exception in London, unfortunately, is the police force, which have provoked race riots in Brixton.

If you ever visit California or the west coast of the US/Canada, be careful how you use the words Asian and Oriental.

I understand Brits use Oriental to mean people from East Asia and Asian to mean people from India or near-abouts.

Here, Oriental is a word about as bad as Nigger if you use it on anyone from anywhere in Asia or in any reference to anything about their regions, cultures, history, or whatever save for rugs from the Middle East .

Asian is used for people from East-Asia and there is no term for people from India or near-abouts, so we talk about them by nationality and then clarify that we don't mean Native Americans... (Since calling a Native American an Indian is like using the word Nigger on a black).

Asians seem to have a similar role to what the Jews once did, being upwardly mobile and succesful in small businesses. Like the Jews of the 1930's, they fought back against the extreme white racist fringe. That, and general British easy-goingness, have kept racism down to a low level here.

Here in San Francisco and the cities around it -Asians- as in people from East Asia (China, Korea, Philipines, and so on) are the majority race. However this region also has the worst cases of anti-asian racism in it's history. All of America's old laws banning Asian Immigration, requiring Chinese heads be shaved upon entry into the ports (traditionally, cutting your hair was a sin against your ancestors), banning females entering the US unless employed in brothels, interning Japs, banning inter-racial marraiges, and not letting Asians become citizens except by birth come out of efforts by the white community of San Francisco. Specifically drive by the Hearst family; which owns the major newspaper here.

All of these laws went away in the 60's (when San Francisco went from the US's most right wing city to it's most left wing in the span of a few short very violent years)... but they are why words like Oriental are hot here, and why we used to have hoods segregated by race (people are now integrated fully in terms of where they live; the city is just too small to have ethic barrios like LA or New York -which is good, cause you're forced to live next to 'those strange freaks from X' and get used to it).

My children are mixed race, as are a lot of Londoners of their age,

What races?
I am Asian (Chinese), White (unknown 'hillbilly mix' suspect: Irish, Scandanavian, Porteguese, Spanish, English, and a few others), Native American (Crow & Cherokee), and South American Native (Inca).

It's those'few others' that cause me to make a claim of 10-12 nationalities (varies by post... ). The feature set between South American Natives and North American Natives is about as different as the difference between either of them and someone from Japan... But the Colonials here don't tend to see us that way... (The culture differenceis even more severe)

I've yet to find any ethnic group that doesn't immediately label me an outsider. My cultural values -whatever those are- do not match any one culture I am aware of, so I tend to view myself as having no race or ethnicity. Which genetically at least is quite true.

multicultural part of London. They have probably never even encountered racism. Power to the next generation of Londoners!

They have. You may not have seen it yet, but you will. Your children are now outcasts by their genetics. While things may be better for them than for previous generations there will still be issues.

Majority-race single race parents of mixed children often go through severe culture shock as their children grow up and face all kinds of hostilities or simple cold reactions that are alien to the majority-race parent.

I don't say 'white' here cause this is a global thing. I've seen it with Korean women with half korean children while living there, and I've seen it in the USA with a white parent of either gender.

It will happen eventually. It may take time, but it will happen and you finally learn what racism actually is.

People don't see it or feel it unless it hits them.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm officially confused.

Here, Oriental is a word about as bad as Nigger if you use it on anyone from anywhere in Asia or in any reference to anything about their regions, cultures, history, or whatever save for rugs from the Middle East .

Asian is used for people from East-Asia and there is no term for people from India or near-abouts, so we talk about them by nationality and then clarify that we don't mean Native Americans... (Since calling a Native American an Indian is like using the word Nigger on a black).

Being a white scandinavian, there aren't really any racial words that can insult me. Immihrants may say "that Swede" with a ton of contempt in their voice, but it still sounds as neutral to me as if they'd call me "that north-European". Swedes haven't had any slave system since the viking ages, and maybe that's why it's hard for my to understand how it can be insulting to be called by your nationality/ethnicity. I can understand that it's not nice to be called something that has been used as a degrading word, but I still can't understand why "Indian" would be any more insulting to a Cherokee or an Apache, than "African" would be to a Somalian or a Gambian, or than "European" would be to a Norwegian or an Italian. I'm not saying that anyone who feel insulted by these labels is wrong, I just don't have enough information on other people's feelings to understand WHY this is an insult??? And I would really like to understand.

(people are now integrated fully in terms of where they live; the city is just too small to have ethic barrios like LA or New York -which is good, cause you're forced to live next to 'those strange freaks from X' and get used to it).

That is exactly what I'm looking for! A big mix of people who have to face each others' habits and costums, and thereby realize that the REALLY weird thing about Mr and Mrs X is not the fact that they don't celebrate this or that Holiday, but the fact that Mr X washes his car every Sunday, and that Mrs X never plays the lottery... If we would get off this race/culture thing, and start seeing each other as individuals, we could really evolve.

What races?
I am Asian (Chinese), White (unknown 'hillbilly mix' suspect: Irish, Scandanavian, Porteguese, Spanish, English, and a few others), Native American (Crow & Cherokee), and South American Native (Inca).
I've yet to find any ethnic group that doesn't immediately label me an outsider.

You're what I call a "rainbow child" - a person of mixed races. I don't think you're an outsider, I more think you're lucky enough to be inside a lot of ethnic groups! Instead of "neither", you're "both". I wish we would all be rainbow people in the future. My children will be a mix of white-black-cherokee. I will encourage them to find East Asian/Middle Eastern partners. Then my descendents will be a true racial bouillabaisse!

 

[bignblack68]

You know Svenskaflicka if everyone thought like you, the world would be a much better place! But unfortunately everyone doesn't...and there are people who use words or names to try and hurt other people....to me, the word is Nigger is completely off limits...i don't like anyone to call me it, even other african americans....for me, it's impossible to use a name that has such a negative aspect and apply it to myself or others....

 

[Guest]

What's the Y-word?
I grew up with a Jewish best friend and hung out with a number of jewish girls in school and I've never heard any 'Y-Word'.

Is this regional slang? Like the case I mention below...
It will happen eventually. It may take time, but it will happen and you finally learn what racism actually is.

People don't see it or feel it unless it hits them.

I guess it's 'Yid'.

Asian is not derogatory in the UK. It means from the Indian Subcontinent, usually. My Asian friends call themsleves Asian, both to me and to each other.

'Yid' is Yiddish for 'Jew'. I guess in the US an antisemite would say 'Kike'. In the UK they say 'Yid'. Which is like Nigga. 'Hey, nigga' --ok if you're black, definitely not, if you're not.

I think London is more tribal than it used to be, more like the U.S. So racism is not so strong as intertribal feuding. Young Afro Carribeans and Asians mix well, partly because they're both dark-skinned, and partly becasue of the music -- Jungle, Reggae, Soca and Bhangra are part of a shared culture they have.

A British comedy (made by Indians for an Indian audience) lampooned young Indians that were more black than the blacks. You may have heard of Ali G (actually Jewish) , who also got this type of person spot-on, especially his musical taste.

 

[tenyari]

Asian isn't derogatory here either.

Oriental is. They recently passed a law in Oregon banning the word in any government document, signage, and so on.

Hopefully we'll get something like that in California someday...

Asian means someone from East Asia: China, Korea, Philipines, Thailand, Vietnam, etc...

(Japanese too -even if other Asians hate to be connected them and vice versa-, but there are almost no Japanese living in San Francisco save for foreign college students. A lot of tourists though.)

 

[Svenskaflicka]

You know Svenskaflicka if everyone thought like you, the world would be a much better place!

My point exactly!

And just imagine what a great world this would be if everyone behaved like I want them to...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

There was a program on Swedish Television (channel 1) last night, called "Baaaaaaadasssssssssss Cinema" (might have missed an s or two in the spelling there). It was said to be "a program about black people made by black people for black people".
Sort of reminds me of the special vacation cruises for gay/lesbian people only... I mean, what exactly do you do since you can't be with the rest of us???

I'm all for keeping one's culture alive, but segregation is not the answer.

My dream is a world where Swedish muslims pray next to Chinese muslims, where Somalian Jews celebrate Midsummer's Eve, and where Italian Hindus bake Gingerbread cookies for the Lucia celebrations...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Yes I meant African American. I don't know what Alcoholics Anonymous people would say!

"The A-word!"

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'd hate to see this thread die out, guys... post more! Or have we already said everything that needs to be said? I can't believe that.

 

[bignblack68]

i agree

I agree we can't let this thread die out it is one of my favs...and i don't think everything has been said...not in the least!

 

[its Leslie]

I hope I don't step on my dick for only having read the first 2 pages of the thread and the last page (ok I am eating lunch right now too and got lazy eh).

I delivered furniture for 4 years in Toronto Canada. I found that a lot of nasty stereo types usually have a grain of truth in them.

But I will say as an expert white guy, I know as an expert, most white folks are assholes (especially the rich ones, lousy no fucking tip jerks).

So to all the non whites out there, sorry for centuries of "white" shit from the assholes.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: i agree

I agree we can't let this thread die out it is one of my favs...

That's why I like you so much!

 

[medjay]

I hope I don't step on my dick for only having read the first 2 pages of the thread and the last page (ok I am eating lunch right now too and got lazy eh).

I delivered furniture for 4 years in Toronto Canada. I found that a lot of nasty stereo types usually have a grain of truth in them.

But I will say as an expert white guy, I know as an expert, most white folks are assholes (especially the rich ones, lousy no fucking tip jerks).

So to all the non whites out there, sorry for centuries of "white" shit from the assholes.

Most white people are assholes? I've found that most white people are kinda cool. But I only tend to hang out with the young blue collar types (as in, not rich ).

 

[tenyari]

Originally posted by medjay Most white people are assholes? I've found that most white people are kinda cool. But I only tend to hang out with the young blue collar types (as in, not rich ).

Most of the stuff we think is about race is really about class.

But class discussions are just not present in American society. We try to pretend we don't suffer from classism, when in reality we have a rather severe case of it.

When Americans meet someone of another race and another class they package the behaivoir they see and label it as typical of that race. Some of it may be by way of ethnicity, but most of it is a fact of the class that person occupies in our society. Meet another person of that same class yet a different race and it becomes much more obvious.

 

[bignblack68]

Re: Re: i agree

That's why I like you so much!

Thanks i guess it's true what they say great minds think alike!

 

[its Leslie]

Tenyari that comment gets a gold star, I have seen a lot of comments in the last while on many topics, but yours was a bit more profound than most.

You are right, on it often being about class not race.

 

[medjay]

Most of the stuff we think is about race is really about class.

But class discussions are just not present in American society. We try to pretend we don't suffer from classism, when in reality we have a rather severe case of it.

When Americans meet someone of another race and another class they package the behaivoir they see and label it as typical of that race. Some of it may be by way of ethnicity, but most of it is a fact of the class that person occupies in our society. Meet another person of that same class yet a different race and it becomes much more obvious.

Money's the great equalizer. Upper class, bourgeois Negroes have treated me far worse in my lifetime than any white person I can think of. It's amazing how donning a suit can make a person feel like they can look down their nose at anyone.

Here's a funny story I like to tell concerning the Rev. Jesse Jackson. A few years ago he and the Operation PUSH/ Rainbow Coalition hosted their annual meeting in a facility that I sometimes work at. I was contracted as the Lighting Director/ Electrician and my partner worked as the Sound Engineer. We worked hard to make sure that everyone from Jackson's entourage could be seen and heard. For our troubles we were treated to a shakedown by security because we didn't have on suits or trendy "African" garb (we wore black pants and t-shirts, typical stage hand attire). Never mind the fact that we were probably making more money per hour than anyone in the building, it was the perception that we were lower class that lead these people to treat us like shit.

The kicker of the evening came when the coalition was to have their banquet. We had been working for about 10 hours with no lunch break. We decided to go down and get a plate (industry ettiquete allows stage hands and technicians to eat when food is being provided, particularly when the client does not suppy food or meal breaks for the crew). On the way in we were stopped by Alderwoman Dorothy Tillman (Chicago residents should be very familiar with her). She took one look at us, my partner's dredlocks in particular, and said we were not allowed into the cafeteria. I explained that we were the techs for the show and our production manager had already told us it would be okay to get a plate, especially since PUSH hadn't supplied us with a meal break.

She said okay, but we would have to go around back to the kitchen so no one would see us! Imagine that! We got the Jim Crow treatment from fellow black people in the mid 1990's! And keep in mind, our attire wasn't sloppy or unkempt, just not white collar. I'm sad to say that we were hungry enough to put up with the insult and went around to the kitchen where Mrs. Tillman herself presented us both with plates of browned lettuce, cold rice and picked over rolls. We walked out.

A long story, but one I hope amuses any fellow Jesse Jackson haters. Also an example of how classism rears it's ugly head.

 

[its Leslie]

Sad isn't it.

And so many squeeky wheels out there crying the blues over politically correct trendy injustices, and often they can't see, that we all screw each other over eventually.

My biggest annoyance though is reserved for religion (but I won't go into that here).

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Medjay, perhaps you were dealing with a coconut?

I think that Tenyari is right, it's a class thing. And class is mostly about money. There's a scale. On the top is rich people who have inheríted tehir money, ie, not done anything to deserve them. On the bottom we have poor people who can't get a decent life no matter how hard they work, so they give up and use booze or drugs while waiting fo Death to come and put them out of their misery.

And the sad thing is when people who have recently moved up on the scale start treating their former "equals" like shit. However, it's also not good when someone tries the "we have the same skin color, how can you treat me like this?" - routine. Kindness should be based on character, critique on behaviour. Skin color, religion or money should be totally unimportant.

Is there any sentence more ridiculous than "you don't know who you're dealing with!" - What the F-WORD does it matter WHO you are? I deal with your actions, not with your background!!!

 

[bignblack68]

Sad isn't it.

And so many squeeky wheels out there crying the blues over politically correct trendy injustices, and often they can't see, that we all screw each other over eventually.

My biggest annoyance though is reserved for religion (but I won't go into that here).

Very true! People don't realize how strong a people...a country we could be if we put all the silliness behind us and learn to judge people by their actions...not by their race, or religion, or even sexually preferences....

Leslie i'm with you too about religion though and saying any more would probably raise all kind of hell....but would love to talk to you more about it if you like...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

My hubby is an American, but I still don't understand you people and your obsession with religion.

Sweden is very de-religiounized (wow, I just created a whole new word! ), but then again, we have no problem discussing religion, politics or sex. And we have a very low rate of murders.

Well, normally, that is - we have election the day after tomorrow, so right now, everything's kind of upside down. Gee... next week, we could be living in Conservative Tyranny - if that happends, I'm applying for asyl in another country!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Election day today... I'm so nervous!

Medjay, your AV keeps getting better!