Rant about poets

[Recidiva]

Pop culture cannot kill art. Pop culture is just average art. Not everyone is an artist, but everyone is permitted to try.

Mothers put their kids' little macaroni art on their refrigerators because it is the best they can do.

MTV and the TV is our refrigerator.

You guys should know this.

The good stuff is private and comes from the heart. If you don't have enough of it, make it for yourselves. If it's dead for you then you don't have it in your own homes or your own hearts and I do feel sorry for you.

And it's not from being dead inside, and it's not from a lack of sense of humor or soul. Sugar and spice and MTV and TV and a little Kahlil Gibran on the bookshelf can make for a good life if you enjoy all of it in its place and time. Just don't push all of it away, any more than you should tell a little kid his macaroni art is shit. That's just mean.

 

[bogusbrig]

Pop culture cannot kill art. Pop culture is just average art. Not everyone is an artist, but everyone is permitted to try.

Popular culture and popular junk are not the same thing. I started this thread by lamenting that poetry is no longer popular culture. I would love to see poetry as popular culture.

But if you want to look at popular junk well, yeah, turn on the TV, I get thirty channels of mainly junk and there is less quality on those thirty channels than I used to get on four channels. Now on the whole there is just production line written formula TV, nothing creative about it at all. The common denominator is so low my 14 year old daughter has stopped watching it. Which I guess is a good thing and I shouldn't complain but I'm complaining because I still have to pay for the privelege of having a TV in my house despite the almost continuous stream of crap churned out by companies more interested in earning a buck than producing quality programming. Jeez, let me get off of my soap box.

 

[*Catbabe*]

...

Mothers put their kids' little macaroni art on their refrigerators because it is the best they can do.

MTV and the TV is our refrigerator.

You guys should know this.

The good stuff is private and comes from the heart. If you don't have enough of it, make it for yourselves. If it's dead for you then you don't have it in your own homes or your own hearts and I do feel sorry for you.

And it's not from being dead inside, and it's not from a lack of sense of humor or soul. Sugar and spice and MTV and TV and a little Kahlil Gibran on the bookshelf can make for a good life if you enjoy all of it in its place and time. Just don't push all of it away, any more than you should tell a little kid his macaroni art is shit. That's just mean.

I would like to take your macaroni picture one step further. I don't think it's mean to tell an adult who is still hanging macaroni pictures on the fridge, that their pictures are shit. If you lie and say they are great, you deprive that person of the truth and you encourage them to be content with mediocrity or worse.

I am saying tell them it's shit, but in reality what I mean is to offer them comments that would encourage them to put forth more effort and hopefully result in a stronger end result. I think if you ask a lot of people, they will deliver. If you pat them on the head and tell them to sit of the couch and smile, they will.

I would rather live in a world with people full of people trying harder at whatever they did, instead of a world full of people smiling because they don't know any better.

 

[Recidiva]

Popular culture and popular junk are not the same thing. I started this thread by lamenting that poetry is no longer popular culture. I would love to see poetry as popular culture.

But if you want to look at popular junk well, yeah, turn on the TV, I get thirty channels of mainly junk and there is less quality on those thirty channels than I used to get on four channels. Now on the whole there is just production line written formula TV, nothing creative about it at all. The common denominator is so low my 14 year old daughter has stopped watching it. Which I guess is a good thing and I shouldn't complain but I'm complaining because I still have to pay for the privelege of having a TV in my house despite the almost continuous stream of crap churned out by companies more interested in earning a buck than producing quality programming. Jeez, let me get off of my soap box.

No, that's cool. Just make a choice. I've turned TV off completely myself at times and I'd recommend that. I assume everybody does as an adult or it's an addiction. I had the cable and TV completely disconnected in my apartment for a year once. Did that when my daughter was very young and susceptible to commercials, I got sick of her parroting them back to me and having my time turned into a begathon.

Over that year I got over the sense of being detoxed from this poison spewing from this box and got more of a sense of control over it. Now commercials are color and light and sometimes amusing. I don't get a sense of ew any more. I'm also not addicted to TV. I also got a TIVO. I keep TV for the Discovery channel and Animal Planet and stuff like "The Daily Show." I love documentaries and funny people.

But I do recommend good long bits of time spent voluntarily away from anything causing you to feel like you're being dragged into a marketing ploy or a wavelength that turns into a rut.

 

[Recidiva]

I would like to take your macaroni picture one step further. I don't think it's mean to tell an adult who is still hanging macaroni pictures on the fridge, that their pictures are shit. If you lie and say they are great, you deprive that person of the truth and you encourage them to be content with mediocrity or worse.

I am saying tell them it's shit, but in reality what I mean is to offer them comments that would encourage them to put forth more effort and hopefully result in a stronger end result. I think if you ask a lot of people, they will deliver. If you pat them on the head and tell them to sit of the couch and smile, they will.

I would rather live in a world with people full of people trying harder at whatever they did, instead of a world full of people smiling because they don't know any better.

Yeah, but deciding you know better than other people is very, very scary business and I'd rather err on the side of the tolerant than the righteous.

 

[*Catbabe*]

Yeah, but deciding you know better than other people is very, very scary business and I'd rather err on the side of the tolerant than the righteous.

I don't think it's righteous to believe in a process of constant improvement. I think it would only be righteous if the person who was adding their comments believed that they themselves were above such comments from other people. I'm saying that false praise doesn't do anyone any favours.

If you believe a poem or a painting does not work for you, I think you have a duty to say why and offer an idea or two as to how your view could be changed. Doesn't mean you are judging the piece or the person to be bad, you are just being honest in your reaction to the art. It also doesn't mean the piece, as is, has no value for the artist or maybe the rest of the world. All it means is that for you, it didn't work.

I don't know better than anyone with regards to anything. I do know better than anyone, however what my reaction/response to the things in my world are. I believe that my honest response has value and should be shared.

I think if more people offered their honest responses then people would have a better idea of how their work was viewed. True confidence comes from working through criticism and becoming better. I just don't come from a place where people are automatically great without practice. I believe there is a process and for some it may be short and for others it may take forever. It doesnt matter though, because on that journey, people are learning. There is no learning when all people tell you is that you're great.

It's not about right or wrong or tolerant verses righteous. It's about being candid even in the face of someone else's ego. I disagree with the fact that this has become a sin in the eyes of our time.

 

[Liar]

Popular culture and popular junk are not the same thing.

Alrighty then, who defines where the line between "culture" and "junk" is drawn? I'm not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole.

Culture is everything we do. The scale of it's quality and worth is a) analog and b) subjective.

 

[flyguy69]

Can the same point be made for NASCAR racing? Or Medieval Sword Fighting Reenactment groups? Or Hummel figurine collectors? Is there a group out there looking at me and lamenting "why can't we get to that guy?"

WHY should poetry be popular? It might help sell books for authors, but can I really say that a society that reads poetry is a "better" society than one that watches fast cars turn left all day? Is it essential that more people think like me?

This debate has minor significance in the realm of artisitic pastimes, but it easliy translates into one on religion or politics. Why don't more people study the Koran? Why don't more people kill the rich? When we judge those with a different world view as being wrong, it is too easy to decide to do change them by force.

This is not to say that within the realm of poetry I don't have advice to share. I just don't know why I should lament that my aunt Gladys doesn't give a rat's ass about poetry. And I hope she doesn't leave me the figurines.

 

[*Catbabe*]

"...watches fast cars turn left all day? .

This made me giggle and wonder. Are there races that go the other way? Wouldn't it make races more interesting if they changed directions half way through? Is it harder to turn right all day?

Signed,
The race-watching virgin

 

[Recidiva]

I don't think it's righteous to believe in a process of constant improvement. I think it would only be righteous if the person who was adding their comments believed that they themselves were above such comments from other people. I'm saying that false praise doesn't do anyone any favours.

If you believe a poem or a painting does not work for you, I think you have a duty to say why and offer an idea or two as to how your view could be changed. Doesn't mean you are judging the piece or the person to be bad, you are just being honest in your reaction to the art. It also doesn't mean the piece, as is, has no value for the artist or maybe the rest of the world. All it means is that for you, it didn't work.

I don't know better than anyone with regards to anything. I do know better than anyone, however what my reaction/response to the things in my world are. I believe that my honest response has value and should be shared.

I think if more people offered their honest responses then people would have a better idea of how their work was viewed. True confidence comes from working through criticism and becoming better. I just don't come from a place where people are automatically great without practice. I believe there is a process and for some it may be short and for others it may take forever. It doesnt matter though, because on that journey, people are learning. There is no learning when all people tell you is that you're great.

It's not about right or wrong or tolerant verses righteous. It's about being candid even in the face of someone else's ego. I disagree with the fact that this has become a sin in the eyes of our time.

Well, then maybe someone who wants constant improvement might consider themselves to be a minority, just like everyone else. The constant improvers. However, you do have to realize that not everyone wishes to be constantly improved. Which is why those who are in the society of "make everything more blue all the time" get into scuffles with the "we don't like blue" guys.

People who are okay with blue or the lack of blue get used to either repainting or accepting flyers when these groups blow through.

 

[flyguy69]

This made me giggle and wonder. Are there races that go the other way? Wouldn't it make races more interesting if they changed directions half way through? Is it harder to turn right all day?

Signed,
The race-watching virgin

Yes, but they wear Shriner hats. And it is enormously entertaining.

 

[*Catbabe*]

Well, then maybe someone who wants constant improvement might consider themselves to be a minority, just like everyone else. The constant improvers. However, you do have to realize that not everyone wishes to be constantly improved. Which is why those who are in the society of "make everything more blue all the time" get into scuffles with the "we don't like blue" guys.

People who are okay with blue or the lack of blue get used to either repainting or accepting flyers when these groups blow through.

I have no wish to force anyone to change 'their colour from blue to pink' or whatever. In the big picture, the change is not the issue for me. The issue is whether a large part of society has been taught to perceive me as mean for saying "I think pink' might suit you better.

I don't expect the change, if it happens then great, if it doesn't well, in the end, I feel that's their choice and I respect that. I can rest easy that they are happy as they are and I am content with the fact that I have not lied in the process.

I believe that people share their work to elicit a reader response otherwise why post work in a public place? A reader's response may be positive and it may be negative or it may be both. If you post in a public place, you better be prepared and excited to see the whole deal.

It shouldn't be viewed as mean or cruel if someone isn't willing to say only positive things. The prasie-only people feel that I am infringing on their right to write as they please by the fact that I will offer criticism if asked. I see people who only want praise as infringing on my right to offer an honest opinion, an opinion which I believe is automatically elicited when posting in a public forum.

If people don't want honest opinions than don't show your work in a public place. As a reader, if all you want to offer is praise and that feels right to you, then go for it. It doesn't feel right for me so I don't. Will I tell someone that I think there poem is amazing and gush and oooh and awe over it? You betcha, but only if it's what I really feel and not what I think they want to hear.

Do I go out of my way to knock people's writing? No. I, generally offer my opinion only to writers I know or to people who have requested opinions on the thread. In general, if I have nothing good to say and the poet has not asked for feedback, then I say nothing at all.

 

[bogusbrig]

Alrighty then, who defines where the line between "culture" and "junk" is drawn? I'm not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole.

Culture is everything we do. The scale of it's quality and worth is a) analog and b) subjective.

Well yeah. I have to agree with you there.

The problem is access. The large Film and TV companies push everyone else out of the market so not everyone has equal access to the media which is why small companies can't get access to the forums to show thier work. Hence the big companies can produce shit and there will be enough people watching it because there is nothing else to watch.

Ditto with book stores. The big book chains can kill a book stone dead by not stocking it. In years gone by there were a lot of indy bookstores where a small publisher had at least some chance of getting an outlet for their wares. You go to the big stores now and they sell a small cross section of established poetry but try to find something new and unusual and it's almost impossible. When I lived in London I used to go to a small bookstore that had a council grant to keep it going, it used to sell all sorts of new and alternative authors but the big chains ganged up and threatened legal action and got it shut down. Now I've nowhere to go to find books by new and unknown poets.

You can repeat this scenario in almost any medium. The big companies force out the small companies that offer a wider, deeper and more unusual items. You end up only being able to access what the big companies stock so the big companies are arbiters of popular taste under the guise of free trade and free speach. The situation sucks!

 

[*Catbabe*]

Yes, but they wear Shriner hats. And it is enormously entertaining.

That reply was way too tame, damn you! I wanted an excuse to call you a dirty bastard.

 

[flyguy69]

That reply was way too tame, damn you! I wanted an excuse to call you a dirty bastard.

I was going to invite you into the back seat of a little clown car. That is how you become a 13th level Mason.

 

[Guest]

That reply was way too tame, damn you! I wanted an excuse to call you a dirty bastard.

You need an excuse? Damn! No wonder he looks at me like that.

 

[flyguy69]

You need an excuse? Damn! No wonder he looks at me like that.

Excuses to call me a dirty bastard are available on every street corner.

 

[Guest]

Excuses to call me a dirty bastard are available on every street corner.

I thought your dog had done those.

 

[flyguy69]

I thought your dog had done those.

People in white sheets shouldn't throw shit.

 

[Guest]

People in white sheets shouldn't throw shit.

I'll egg your car.

 

[Liar]

You can repeat this scenario in almost any medium. The big companies force out the small companies that offer a wider, deeper and more unusual items. You end up only being able to access what the big companies stock so the big companies are arbiters of popular taste under the guise of free trade and free speach. The situation sucks!

Now we're not talking about good or bad culture but about market politics.

This is the supply and demand mechanics of an unregulated market. Market exposure (running a store, advertising) is expensive. To do it you need to have a demand that covers the costs. The big companies does not dictate popular taste, but they cater it to the point where less popular taste gets marginalized out of proportion. And sometimes marginalized entirely out of frame.

However, the internet has been a revival for many narrow-market suppliers. Your costs for market exposure is much lower, and your potentional area of clientele much higher. I find that my access to non-mainstream books, music and film is much better today than it was ten or fifteen years ago.

 

[bogusbrig]

Now we're not talking about good or bad culture but about market politics.

Since when has culture not been politics?

This is the supply and demand mechanics of an unregulated market. Market exposure (running a store, advertising) is expensive. To do it you need to have a demand that covers the costs. The big companies does not dictate popular taste, but they cater it to the point where less popular taste gets marginalized out of proportion. And sometimes marginalized entirely out of frame.

If marginalising something out of the frame and deciding what gets into the frame is not dictating taste, what is? The large companies take all the middle ground through price cutting and off setting one profit margin against another, leaving an unviable market for smaller companies. The very nature of the free market place leaves culture in the hands of big business. Culture is too important to leave to free market capitalists every bit as much as leaving culture in the hands of a communist politburo.

However, the internet has been a revival for many narrow-market suppliers. Your costs for market exposure is much lower, and your potentional area of clientele much higher. I find that my access to non-mainstream books, music and film is much better today than it was ten or fifteen years ago.

The internet is slowly getting regulated and will soon be in the hands of big business like everything else should it be left to market forces. Running a small internet business is very time consuming for very little return on the whole and having run one and knowing many other people who still do, a lot of work is done by enthusiasm to a cause than making a viable living from it.

 

[Liar]

Since when has culture not been politics?

Since when did that have to do with what I said? I said that that had nothing to do with if the culture was of high or low quality. Just wether it was popular or not.

If marginalising something out of the frame and deciding what gets into the frame is not dictating taste, what is? The large companies take all the middle ground through price cutting and off setting one profit margin against another, leaving an unviable market for smaller companies. The very nature of the free market place leaves culture in the hands of big business. Culture is too important to leave to free market capitalists every bit as much as leaving culture in the hands of a communist politburo.

Once again, with feeling: The big companies does not dictate taste. They cater to it. They. Sell. What. Most. People. Want. To. Buy. That's it, nothing else. Period. They look at the giant smorgasboard of (for instance) books and pick a menu of titles that will maximize their profit. They don't pick a book and make it popular. If they had that kind of magic power, then why don't they make post modern poetry popular? Basic market mecanics. Demand dictates supply, not the other way around. The other way around is what the politburo tried to do. Solid well it did them.

That being said... hell yes it's damaging the diversity of culture. And it sucks, and something ought to be done about it. There I agree with you. I'm just saying that the bigwigs are not in it to shape the cultural landscape. They are in it for profit.

The internet is slowly getting regulated and will soon be in the hands of big business like everything else should it be left to market forces. Running a small internet business is very time consuming for very little return on the whole and having run one and knowing many other people who still do, a lot of work is done by enthusiasm to a cause than making a viable living from it.

Not saying it's all hunky-dory. Nothing ever is. But compared to running an actual physical venue, it's still peanuts in terms of economical risk taking. JIT stock shipping, online billing and a commerse template web host as opposed to store rent, manual stock handling, manual cash handling, insurance and a frenetic banker up my ass... I've done both. Guess which one I'd consider doing again.

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

YES...as I said in the begining of this damn post we are a society that has fallen prey to commercialism...we are being told what we like more, having pop culture shoved down our throats and making up our minds less....A Visual driven society that has become lazy pseudo-intellectuals. Were has true drive for knowledge gone? Where are the great philosophers? The true artists? The poets? Where has apperciation for craftmanship gone? I will tell you where...driven to the edges of civilzation starving on the scraps thrown out from a world that no longer believes in art because we can buy the replica.
Laws of supply and demand have only created industrial lines of machines creating shit because someone sitting in an office decides what the next fad is.
Some fad's take, some don't...we are left with nothing more than the illusion of choice.

 

[The_Fool]

I remember you--vaguely. And why is there no poetry?

There is no agreement on a definition, so it must not exist.....