Rant about poets

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

Pop culture cannot kill art. Pop culture is just average art. Not everyone is an artist, but everyone is permitted to try.

Mothers put their kids' little macaroni art on their refrigerators because it is the best they can do.

MTV and the TV is our refrigerator.

You guys should know this.

The good stuff is private and comes from the heart. If you don't have enough of it, make it for yourselves. If it's dead for you then you don't have it in your own homes or your own hearts and I do feel sorry for you.

And it's not from being dead inside, and it's not from a lack of sense of humor or soul. Sugar and spice and MTV and TV and a little Kahlil Gibran on the bookshelf can make for a good life if you enjoy all of it in its place and time. Just don't push all of it away, any more than you should tell a little kid his macaroni art is shit. That's just mean.

the last time I checked we were not talking about kid's art...come on you can dig a little deeper than that.
if you surround yourself with nothing but the nice side than you are choosing your own ignorance and for that I have no sympathy.

 

[Recidiva]

the last time I checked we were not talking about kid's art...come on you can dig a little deeper than that.
if you surround yourself with nothing but the nice side than you are choosing your own ignorance and for that I have no sympathy.

I think it's cute when people accuse me of being nice and ignorant

 

[Liar]

How many "great philosophers" and "true artists" do ya get in a generation?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was always better in the Good Old Days. And still, the same diatribe was heard one, two, three or twenty generations ago too. So was it?

Was the "true" artists of past times the household icons of the common man? Bullshit. The common man didn't have a flying fart about who they even were.

Why do we expect the majortiy to be better today? I truly don't get it.

 

[Liar]

There is no agreement on a definition, so it must not exist.....

Just because everyone else's definition but mine is wrong, it doesn't mean it's not existing.

 

[The_Fool]

Just because everyone else's definition but mine is wrong, it doesn't mean it's not existing.

You must have read my comments on Rybka's poem.....

 

[WickedEve]

There is no agreement on a definition, so it must not exist.....

Then it exists. We just don't know what it is.

 

[Tzara]

I think it's cute when people accuse me of being nice and ignorant

I would merely accuse you of strongly resembling Orion.

But I'm a sucker that way. Always seeing stars...

 

[Tzara]

i'm off to the Space Needle.

Yo. Mr. C!

If yur actually in Seattle, check out Open Books at 2414 N. 45th St. Seattle, WA 98103. Going north on I-5, take the N 45th Street exit and turn left. A few blocks.

Going south? You're coming from suburbia. Do the math.

Wonderful store. All poetry. A bookstore that is all poetry, all the time. In clunky little Seattle, of all places.

 

[bogusbrig]

Once again, with feeling: The big companies does not dictate taste. They cater to it. They. Sell. What. Most. People. Want. To. Buy. That's it, nothing else. Period. They look at the giant smorgasboard of (for instance) books and pick a menu of titles that will maximize their profit. They don't pick a book and make it popular. If they had that kind of magic power, then why don't they make post modern poetry popular? Basic market mecanics. Demand dictates supply, not the other way around. The other way around is what the politburo tried to do. Solid well it did them.

QUOTE]

Who is demanding next year's fashion? The public don't even know what it is yet. Companies create the product and then create the demand through advertising. Even when there is street fashion like punk, the companies copy it, smooth off the rough edges and create a bigger market for it and in the process shed any political content.

Actually they do pick a book and make it popular. Why do you think you see some books in advertisements and not others? How often do you see displays in bookstore windows about one book and why that book?

There is less money in poetry but book stores also refuse to stock collections of short stories too on the whole and so publishers (they give this as a reason themselves) produce less and less collections of short stories. Apparently there is no demand but there is no demand because if you go to a book store you know you won't find a collection you care for because there is so few collections. Here in Britain the short story has almost died because of it. What evidence there is suggests there was, always has been and still is a demand for short stories. You can't buy the product though.

 

[bogusbrig]

How many "great philosophers" and "true artists" do ya get in a generation?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was always better in the Good Old Days. And still, the same diatribe was heard one, two, three or twenty generations ago too. So was it?

Was the "true" artists of past times the household icons of the common man? Bullshit. The common man didn't have a flying fart about who they even were.

Why do we expect the majortiy to be better today? I truly don't get it.

It's a complex issue. It's more about the right person being in the right place at the right time in the right period of history. In the Renaisance western knowledge took a great leap forward and so many great people were produced. Very rarely do you see a stagnation in knowledge and a great thinker produced out of it from nothing. Western culture is pretty stagnant at the moment so you will find less great people produced, it doesn't mean the potential for a lot of great people isn't there, just that those with potential find themselves in a pretty depleted period of western developement. With so much economic activity taking place in the east now, the chances are more ripe there for great people to be produced. I could be wrong, if we were able to move forward a hundred years and look back we would probably be able to assess the period we live in more realistically and assess the people this period has produced.

As Shakespeare succinctly put it. Some men are born great, some become great and some have greatness thrust upon them.

 

[Liar]

Actually they do pick a book and make it popular. Why do you think you see some books in advertisements and not others? How often do you see displays in bookstore windows about one book and why that book?

Again, if they could pick any book, why not a poetry book? Because it still wouldn't make them money.

Why do you think they advertise JK Rowling and Dan Brown and not some obscure postmodern poet? Because they know it will sell. Because that's what most people want to read. They cater to the majority demand, because that's where their biggest profit margin is. Then, of course, by focusing the advertising and limiting the alternatives, they will maximize the profit. They predict bestsellers, and squeeze those for everything they're worth. They have become pretty good at predicting, because picking the wrong title is expensive. And yes, that happens - big ad campaigns, and only minor sales - especially in the movies. We don't see much of it, because as soon as they realise their big ads doesn't do the trick fast enough, they scrap them.

That's the problem with an unregulated market. It will undeniably create oligopolies, both when it comes to sellers, manufacturers and individual products.

There is less money in poetry but book stores also refuse to stock collections of short stories too on the whole and so publishers (they give this as a reason themselves) produce less and less collections of short stories. Apparently there is no demand but there is no demand because if you go to a book store you know you won't find a collection you care for because there is so few collections. Here in Britain the short story has almost died because of it. What evidence there is suggests there was, always has been and still is a demand for short stories. You can't buy the product though.

If demand was that high, believe me, they would sell it. Yes, demand might be higher for short stories than for poetry (just look at this place), but it falls below the bookstores' break-even point. Not the point where they no longer would profit from it, but the point where wasting energy on something else will give more profit.

Or there could be other factors that makes them less available. If we talk about anthologies, there is possibly too much work for the publisher to handle copyright and distribute revenue to copyright holders. I really have no idea how that works, but the reason is economical, that I'm sure of.

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

Why do we expect the majortiy to be better today? I truly don't get it.[/QUOTE]


humanity should expect the majority to be better today because the average citizen has greater learning potential than ever before...we have the aquired knowledge of mankind at our fingertips yet we do little about it. We choose our ignorance instead of embracing knowledge.
So many times I see the same thing happen in the people around me...they get to a certain point and then just stop, they become narrow or focused if you will on what lies before them and nothing more. They stop learning at some imaginary line...what causes this? I truly don't get it.

 

[Recidiva]

humanity should expect the majority to be better today because the average citizen has greater learning potential than ever before...we have the aquired knowledge of mankind at our fingertips yet we do little about it. We choose our ignorance instead of embracing knowledge.
So many times I see the same thing happen in the people around me...they get to a certain point and then just stop, they become narrow or focused if you will on what lies before them and nothing more. They stop learning at some imaginary line...what causes this? I truly don't get it.

No, knowledge is realizing that learning is a choice someone else makes. Someone has to choose to learn. You can't force it on them. Yelling and ranting is only noise. Those things only teach someone to close their ears to you and that words are mostly noise. Just like "teaching someone a lesson" with pain teaches only hate. Yes, words and pain can teach useful things, but only if the mind so chooses.

Learning is something you do for yourself. Teaching is something someone asks you to do, and it is a burden and a compliment. It is not something you decide someone else needs. That is called bullying. Or being a parent.

Adults have to let each other go on being adults or little kids in big people bodies. Not everybody learns. And the people who keep shrieking at the top of their lungs "WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?" Haven't figured out yet that learning is a skill and is not an inherent ability that everyone possesses.

 

[bogusbrig]

Why do you think they advertise JK Rowling and Dan Brown and not some obscure postmodern poet?

You've chosen a bad example. Harry Potter was a success thanks to the doggedness of the author, it was rejected by all the big publishers as unsaleable and picked up by a small publisher who saw the potential. It then got initial success by word of mouth, not advertising. Childrens books are also a very profitable part of the book market and so to choose a children's book is not to choose a typical example.

 

[bogusbrig]

Adults have to let each other go on being adults or little kids in big people bodies. Not everybody learns. And the people who keep shrieking at the top of their lungs "WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?" Haven't figured out yet that learning is a skill and is not an inherent ability that everyone possesses.

It's this sort of attitude that is widely held in the west which is undermining it at the expense of far eastern countries which generally see learning as necessary for the future of their economy and the well being of their nations.

Why are the US and many European countries having to entice immigrants who possess knowledge and skills while sat on a pool of unemployable people? It's not a healthy situation and says more about bankrupt attitudes than the uselessness of people left in ignorance and poverty.

 

[Recidiva]

It's this sort of attitude that is widely held in the west which is undermining it at the expence of far eastern countries which generally see learning as necessary for the future of their economy and the well being of their nations.

Why are the US and many European countries having to entice immigrants who possess knowledge and skills while sat on a pool of unemployable people? It's not a healthy situation and says more about bankrupt attitudes than the uselessness of people left in ignorance and poverty.

The US has to entice immigrants?

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

corruption...there can never be purity where financial gain is conserned.

Young people spend alot of money, this is called impulse shopping...this is an economic fact. Marketing focuses on the demographic that produces the most financial return in the quickest way...
Yes, they do decide which book or movie or bubble gum will sell the best in market polls...this gives them an advantage in the market...they advertise the hell out of the product they are producing.
This same principal is one used in polotics in opinion polls...how many other names did you even hear about for the last presidental election in the states? why you ask? because the ones with the money were the ones to get advertised and backed by their parties...No one else mattered, no one else could get a foot in to compete. This is corruption in the sytem...motives are never pure where finacial gain is considered.
We know that marketing motives are not pure look at the track record, smoking industry right off the top...they used tactics in advertising that brought the supreme court down on their heads. They focused on a demographic, young people the ones that impulse spend and do things that a more mature demographic would not.
How many younger people are out there reading poetry? Not many, it makes you think...instead of looking at a super model for Victoria secret...poetry makes you visualize instead of putting a moniter in front of your eyes and telling you what you should buy. It takes too much work, how does that song go....
"I don't know how to read but I've got a lot of toys,
I'm a twenty-first century boy."
case in point...until super models and extreme motocross racers start backing it there will be no revival of poetry.
Except us dusty folks sitting in coffee houses and on the net scratching our heads and wondering where culture has gone.

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

The US has to entice immigrants?

Key words here..."Who posses knowledge"

we have enough dumb asses.

 

[Recidiva]

corruption...there can never be purity where financial gain is conserned.

Young people spend alot of money, this is called impulse shopping...this is an economic fact. Marketing focuses on the demographic that produces the most financial return in the quickest way...
Yes, they do decide which book or movie or bubble gum will sell the best in market polls...this gives them an advantage in the market...they advertise the hell out of the product they are producing.
This same principal is one used in polotics in opinion polls...how many other names did you even hear about for the last presidental election in the states? why you ask? because the ones with the money were the ones to get advertised and backed by their parties...No one else mattered, no one else could get a foot in to compete. This is corruption in the sytem...motives are never pure where finacial gain is considered.
We know that marketing motives are not pure look at the track record, smoking industry right off the top...they used tactics in advertising that brought the supreme court down on their heads. They focused on a demographic, young people the ones that impulse spend and do things that a more mature demographic would not.
How many younger people are out there reading poetry? Not many, it makes you think...instead of looking at a super model for Victoria secret...poetry makes you visualize instead of putting a moniter in front of your eyes and telling you what you should buy. It takes too much work, how does that song go....
"I don't know how to read but I've got a lot of toys,
I'm a twenty-first century boy."
case in point...until super models and extreme motocross racers start backing it there will be no revival of poetry.
Except us dusty folks sitting in coffee houses and on the net scratching our heads and wondering where culture has gone.

I guess I don't worry about this stuff because I don't indulge in it. Why do you assume young people are not reading poetry, have you asked them all?

Maybe I'm not afraid of something I feel immune to. That's possible. Maybe you are concerned about something that you feel closer to and more concerned about, and that's valid.

But because I've taken a journey and I'm immune doesn't mean I'm stupid or blind. It means I've stepped carefully and I know my way. Not everyone is equally susceptible to what you consider to be a plague. Some are immune and some are only mildly affected. Yes, some people are sick. But in the end, it is the common cold, not new. It is not Ebola.

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

No, knowledge is realizing that learning is a choice someone else makes. Someone has to choose to learn. You can't force it on them. Yelling and ranting is only noise. Those things only teach someone to close their ears to you and that words are mostly noise. Just like "teaching someone a lesson" with pain teaches only hate. Yes, words and pain can teach useful things, but only if the mind so chooses.

Learning is something you do for yourself. Teaching is something someone asks you to do, and it is a burden and a compliment. It is not something you decide someone else needs. That is called bullying. Or being a parent.

Adults have to let each other go on being adults or little kids in big people bodies. Not everybody learns. And the people who keep shrieking at the top of their lungs "WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?" Haven't figured out yet that learning is a skill and is not an inherent ability that everyone possesses.

expectation and force are two different things and your excuses for humanities laziness are trite.

 

[Recidiva]

expectation and force are two different things and your excuses for humanities laziness are trite.

Yes, because I've gone beyond expectation to trying to accomplish something. It's harder than just being demanding. Reality is a bit more stubborn than talking. I'm not making excuses at all, I'm talking, so I can be whimsical and funny. You can try it too!

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

I guess I don't worry about this stuff because I don't indulge in it. Why do you assume young people are not reading poetry, have you asked them all?

Maybe I'm not afraid of something I feel immune to. That's possible. Maybe you are concerned about something that you feel closer to and more concerned about, and that's valid.

But because I've taken a journey and I'm immune doesn't mean I'm stupid or blind. It means I've stepped carefully and I know my way. Not everyone is equally susceptible to what you consider to be a plague. Some are immune and some are only mildly affected. Yes, some people are sick. But in the end, it is the common cold, not new. It is not Ebola.

No, stupidity is something that is not a choice...ignorance is and it does make you blind...
"You see, without the truth of the eyes
the happy folk were blind"
~Dennis Hopper.

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

It's this sort of attitude that is widely held in the west which is undermining it at the expence of far eastern countries which generally see learning as necessary for the future of their economy and the well being of their nations.

Why are the US and many European countries having to entice immigrants who possess knowledge and skills while sat on a pool of unemployable people? It's not a healthy situation and says more about bankrupt attitudes than the uselessness of people left in ignorance and poverty.

<Applauding>

 

[Recidiva]

No, stupidity is something that is not a choice...ignorance is and it does make you blind...
"You see, without the truth of the eyes
the happy folk were blind"
~Dennis Hopper.

Quotes! I can do that too!

"Oh! In two hundred years we've gone from "I regret but I have one life to give for my country" to "Fuck you!"?

- Dennis Hopper

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

Quotes! I can do that too!

"Oh! In two hundred years we've gone from "I regret but I have one life to give for my country" to "Fuck you!"?

- Dennis Hopper

and how is this applicable to the converstation at hand other than just being a quote?