Rape as a Fantasy

[bunny bondage]

not to mention the fact that it's WAY easier for a woman to get aids from a man than vice versa since a woman is literally filled with semen while a man has that tiny little hole that might maybe let something in.

yes, i know that anal sex is the easiest way to get aids, but we're talking about man/woman and no matter what a woman does to your ass, she still isn't going to shoot her sperm into it.

 

[Marquis]

Rape is a horrible thing with many horrible effects. I was never attempting to argue that point, or that it was easier on men. I was just thinking it was kind of funny that pregnancy would be pointed to as the worse thing about it, when there are so many worse possibilities.

 

[lark sparrow]

It's all in perspective, Marquis. Putting aside the physical, emotional, psychological scars and possible disease, I think it is one of the very worst things that could happen. Being impregnated can be a highly charged subject, particularly for those who actually can be and have no wish to be. lol... having flashbacks of Alien - it's truly a horrible thought, trust me.

 

[UCE]

Since women are pregnable, rape of men is more acceptable/less of a violation? I dunno. Who can fathom the cosmic mind of a chthonic diety?

I think rape of a hetero man, if done via strapon to anus, or especially cock to anus, is even more of a violation that it is for a woman, because it fucks with his sense of who he is sexually.

Women are pregnable, but they can also file paternity suits, which evens the board up very slightly.

On the other hand, many more men rape than women, and it just makes a very angry part of me wish that more women who were stranger-raped got themselves a strap-on and a lot of strong friends and showed the guy just what it felt like.

Unda

 

[UCE]

Rape is a horrible thing with many horrible effects. I was never attempting to argue that point, or that it was easier on men. I was just thinking it was kind of funny that pregnancy would be pointed to as the worse thing about it, when there are so many worse possibilities.

Well, there are a great many women who still either personally believe or who are in mini-cultures that believe that an abortion is wrong and cannot be considered. For such a woman, particularly if she really didn't want children, the rapist has potentially tied her down and ruined the next 18-20 years of her life with an extremely difficult burden. At very least, even if she goes the adoption route, she'll carry the social stigma as well as the stretch marks for the rest of her life. I think that is one reason pregnancy is seen by terrible by some. The term of "imprisonment" can be longer than that suffered by someone who just contracts aids.

 

[UCE]

Someone popped their head into a thread and said: I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread yet, but the title of signals a little trepidition in me. I wonder if that's true of a lot of women reading it?
------------------------------
You said in part: Remember, this is a board dedicated to sadism, masochism, control, power, freaky fetishes, and all sorts of nasty things like that. If you want politically correct speech or attitudes, a bdsm forum--or any other sexually edgey group, for that matter--might not be the best place to find those sorts of things.

If a kind of sexuality makes you uncomfortable, it helps you and also the people who really enjoy this kind of sex to stay out of the threads that discuss it.
----------------------------------
You seemed to tell her this forum and BDSM was not the right place for her, possibly. That if she doesn't like it, perhaps she should go away. And perhaps she should stay away from any topic she finds mildly uncomfortable. Call it what you want, but it seemed a bit unprovoked to me and I mentioned it.

I can see how you might interpret it that way, but that's not how my words were meant. I was trying to give her advise, as this same person had popped her head into a number of other threads at the same time and made some stronger and more negative comments. For example, see the top-opolis thread, where Rosco handled her with his usual aplomb. But I am not Rosco and this person threatened me because, in toto, all of her remarks were suggesting the sort of intolerant angry politicized individual I have run into so many times in the past and who loves to burst into bdsm or other weird-sex places and impose his or her personal morality of what is right or wrong onto everybody (it's OK to talk about this but un-OK to talk about that, even though both lie within the realm of the forum subject). Anyway, I'm not saying this poster WAS that, I'm saying that all of her posts strongly reminded me of that sort, but I wasn't trying to be threatening, like saying "we don't like your type around here" (believe me, I am quite capable of saying the latter directly, when I feel it is true!) but rather trying to suggest, gently, that if (and it was a big IF in my mind, I don't know this person) anti-bdsm sexual politics were her interest, this proabably wasn't the best place in the world to pursue them, because this group is pretty free-wheeling (I don't even see a consensus here on the safe, sane, and consensual issue--I know I am dead against the phrase and always have been for detailed reasons which I outlined elsewhere) and she would be likely to be slammed, if not by me, than certainly others, if they felt their rights to speak freely were being constricted.

I asssumed a lot about this poster, obviously, but then I had read a lot of her posts, not just this one, before I responded to her. I also assumed that if I had guessed wrong about her, she would tell me so herself. I thought that my words were asking her to remain open minded and not quick to accuse. There's been a lot of accusation flying around lately in this forum, unsupported racism accuastions and the accusations that somebody is a bad peson if they do meta-speech, or commentary on forum process rather than content. I think that has made me hypersensitive to other forms of potential accusation, such as sexual politics, getting started.

Online sexual politics wars, as you may well know, are so ugly! They're worse than online racial wars, because unlike racism accusations, people who get "accused" of wrong sexual politics and whose views are strongly disagreed with are often equated by the moral majority of the arguement with criminals. I got death threats from an insane feminist on a grrl-power third-wave feminism board a year or so ago because I wouldn't shut up over insisiting that in some cases certain rapes were grey areas and not clearly black and white. Yeah, death threats--for insisting upon speaking my view that a subject was more complex than the people aruging with me wanted to consider it as! So naturally, all that past history went through my head when I saw somebody using the word "trepidatious" here in the rape thread. I also honestly wondered why they were reading this thread if it made them so uncomfortable. I thought that maybe it hadn't occurred to the person that the could just totally ignore a thread (a lot of people never consider this, which is why you hear so many complaints about thread content--not so much here, in the bdsm forum, but elsewhere--from idiots who think they are watching pay TV and insist that we say or not say what THEY want to hear in order to entertain them) and so I thought I would be nice and pass on to her my own cool tip for staying away from stuff that distresses me: do not read the thread.

Anyway, I thought my message was friendly, full of advice, and not threatening or telling anybody to go anywhere. It was a shock to hear that somebody else had read it so differently.

Unda

 

[evesdream]

I think rape of a hetero man, if done via strapon to anus, or especially cock to anus, is even more of a violation that it is for a woman, because it fucks with his sense of who he is sexually.
Unda

You're talking about heterosexual masculinity and femininity as some key areas vulnerable to violation. Something tells me that anybody's sense of violation like that would be related to the rigidity of their concept of masc and fem.

I wonder whether one use of force fantasies is to establish or completely subvert one's own sense of masculinity and femininity through (morning noon & night, heh) sexual repetition. I can see this in the Taken-by-a-rogue-under-silken-sheets thing and in the other kind too.



On a side note. Why do online discussions about rape inevitably lead to male/female anguish pissing contests? Does anyone really and truly care who it might be worse for? If so, how come?

 

[evesdream]

Anyway, I thought my message was friendly, full of advice, and not threatening or telling anybody to go anywhere. It was a shock to hear that somebody else had read it so differently.
Unda

It was a lot of assumption to make over Naaki’s "pop in", but I’ve seen the wars you’re talking about so I can understand your defensiveness. There’s no such thing as an online perv-sanctuary.

 

[lark sparrow]

On a side note. Why do online discussions about rape inevitably lead to male/female anguish pissing contests? Does anyone really and truly care who it might be worse for? If so, how come?

I think this thread has been less nasty and heated than many other threads here, and although difficult questions were raised everyone got a chance to express what they wanted and the topic was/is discussed - rape is a charged subject. There aren't very many women raping out there, and they are more often the victim of such, so I think it's pretty obvious why male/female aspects come into play. Do you think this has turned into warfare?

 

[Marquis]

It's all in perspective, Marquis. Putting aside the physical, emotional, psychological scars and possible disease, I think it is one of the very worst things that could happen.

Thats a lot to put aside!

"But other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

 

[lark sparrow]

Unda,

I don't respond to anything or post in Top-opolis because of this, although I do occasionally read it. I find much of what Rosco says bizarre, extreme, and untrue (from my perspective) but, I also find him rather human, not interesting in flaming, and willing to discuss things with a level-head. Even though we probably disagree on 97% of everything, there is no need to go into his domain created for his views and disagree - though I do on more open community threads. These are only my views, and how I distinguish what threads I will go into and present a view other than fabulously positive and encouraging.

If Marquis' rape thread said "Rape Fantasy - Only for those who love it!" and then inside the thread he said: I only want to hear from people who will respond positively to my rape questions. It's no guarantee that it is all he will get, but the intention is clear.

I understand what your intentions were now, and I also agree, you assumed alot about her. It seemed uncalled for, and since she seemed a relatively new poster, I put myself in her position and thought how I would feel first coming onto this forum, making an innocent and understandable comment, with an innocuous question, and having someone assume all those things about me. I have not read all of this poster's posts - I was responding to this exchange.

I have no axe to grind with you personally, but thought the response to the fairly new poster's one comment on this thread was extreme. Point taken that we all read and respond to things differently. To me, it seemed unfair - that's all. I understand what you meant and what you were referring to though now.

 

[lark sparrow]

Thats a lot to put aside!

"But other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

You miss the point again, Marquis - anyone could suffer those things regardless of gender. Only a woman could have the additional horrible result of impregnation.

 

[Marquis]

You miss the point again, Marquis - anyone could suffer those things regardless of gender. Only a woman could have the additional horrible result of impregnation.

Ahhh, I think I see what you are saying now. I wasn't really trying to make a point or anything, I just thought it was funny that people seemed to think that pregnancy was the worst case scenario of rape. I see my mistake now.

 

[UCE]

On a side note. Why do online discussions about rape inevitably lead to male/female anguish pissing contests? Does anyone really and truly care who it might be worse for? If so, how come?

Hi ED (that sounds terrible, never mind) Hi Eves Dream,

I think that what you're seeing as a pissing contest I'm seeing as a cooperative piling up of information, so I don't know if I can answer your question, as phrased. I like to know what all the agonies are, male or female, and what I've been doing in this part of the thread is listing the ones that are still relatively new to me and so (I thought) might be new to others.

Unda

 

[UCE]

You're talking about heterosexual masculinity and femininity as some key areas vulnerable to violation. Something tells me that anybody's sense of violation like that would be related to the rigidity of their concept of masc and fem.

Why do you call a person's sense of knoweldge of themselves or being who they artually are "Rigidity." I don't think it's rigid to be purely het or purely gay because I don't believe people choose their sexual identities, like they choose a desert after dinner in a resturant.

I just mean you can't call a person's inability to digest concrete rigid, because that's just the way he's made. That's how I see sex roles, too. How about you?

Unda

 

[evesdream]

lark sparrow, no i didn't think warfare at all- I honestly wanted to know what motivates -what looked like- an odd sort of competition. My question came out sort of snooty. Thanks you and unda both for clarifying it.

unda, funny when you said "sexuality" my mind didn't go to orientation, i thought about prescribed gender roles in sex- and how rape can conceivably transgress against ideas of masculinity and femininity both depending on what a person holds dear. It's possible that I'm the only person on lit who doesn't immediately associate phallus to ass with homosexuality.

I analyze things too much. I was wondering when I commented on your post whether it's the repetition of particular reassurances that make this type of fantasy feel good to some of us - or what.

Still hoping to hear what the word on the street is on this topic.

 

[WriterDom]

consensual nonconsent

she only meant to do laundry
when she felt the knife against her throat

“do as I say and you won’t get hurt”
cry out and you’ll be dead”

He taped her eyes with vet tape
wrapping it around and around
she heard the knife rip thru her clothes
feeling them fall to her feet
the icy coolness of steel
freeing her breasts from Victoria Secret
and the sharp tip
making its way down her belly
not cutting the skin
but perilously close
down to her panties
where he cut them of at her hips
and stuffed them in her mouth

she felt the cold steel of the handle
being pushed inside her pussy

“I thought you’d be wet
But not this wet”

He began fucking her cunt with the handle
and slapping her ass with his hand

“not big enough for you?
Perhaps you like a real cock
Shake your head if you do”

she was moaning from both
the knife and the fear
and some forbidden desire
hidden where she rarely looked
but she did shake her head, “yes”

He placed her hands on the washer
spread her legs with two little kicks
she felt the head press then
then a virile push
plunging his cock ball deep
into her wetness
fucking her hard
humping deep, pushing her forward
and she braced back
matching him thrust by thrust
till they both came
in a crescendo of moans

“And you thought I was working this morning.
Was it as good as you imagined?”

 

[rosco rathbone]

beautiful words

 

[evesdream]

lovely

 

[evesdream]

this 1's for u

him
a trembling scepter of manhood
her
aflutter with her heart's desire
evasion, futile
invasion, imminent
they rode the waves of orgasm
....2 gether
as 1...

*smile*

 

[lark sparrow]

Nice, WriterDom.

It brought a question to my mind. If it was a set up rape fantasy, but there was a surprise element of not knowing the timing (I don't know how one would disquise their voice and scent - it seems what would signal it was the safe and erotic fantasy.) but let's say it's possible - if you surprised your sub and she really didn't know it was you - would it be alarming in any way that she would give in to a man other than you for forced sex? Concern that she would be vulnerable in accepting dangerous situations - as in real random forced sex by a stranger? In other words are their any psychological ramifications to the Dom in this scenario with his submissive, in regard to either her general safety or her fidelity to him?

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: this 1's for u

him
a trembling scepter of manhood
her
aflutter with her heart's desire
evasion, futile
invasion, imminent
they rode the waves of orgasm
....2 gether
as 1...

*smile*

beautiful words, little evie

 

[WriterDom]

Nice, WriterDom.

It brought a question to my mind. If it was a set up rape fantasy, but there was a surprise element of not knowing the timing (I don't know how one would disquise their voice and scent - it seems what would signal it was the safe and erotic fantasy.) but let's say it's possible - if you surprised your sub and she really didn't know it was you - would it be alarming in any way that she would give in to a man other than you for forced sex? Concern that she would be vulnerable in accepting dangerous situations - as in real random forced sex by a stranger? In other words are their any psychological ramifications to the Dom in this scenario with his submissive, in regard to either her general safety or her fidelity to him?

Yes, it does seem like a very edgy scene. Especially if her sight was taken away. I guess there could be an unspoken safe sign fairly early. Like a pinching of the ear lobe for example. Or a finger in the ear.

 

[Never]

UCE:
" So what's your point?"

As I addressed my comment to rosco rathbone the logical thing would be to find what he said that I was responding to. Now, at the very top of the page where I made my comment rasco posted:

" One good point made by Thornhill and Palmer is that women's deep loathing of rape may be as much of an evolved reaction as men's rape instinct. Rape may ( in the distant past) have tended to improve the reproductive chances of inferior males who could not obtain mates other than by force; at the same time it would have decreased the reproductive choice of women, who naturally wanted their eggs to be fertilized by the BMOC instead of the creepy loner and who therefore have an evolutionary reason for instinctual rape hatred. "

Thornhill and Palmer create a very clear and logical theory; that a woman loathes rape because of the risk of unwanted pregnancy by an inferior male. To which I respond:

" rosco rathbone, both men and women have a deep loathing of being raped yet only one can get pregnant."

Which is one problem with this theory. Another being that men often rape women that they already have sexual access to and another being that a large percentage of rapes happen to males, children, and the elderly – none of whom can become pregnant.

Now, I'll respond to your comments:
" Both, however, can get aids. So can the rapist for that matter.

(Not to mention that a woman stronger than a man can rape him with strap-on, to anus, but he probably won't get aids from it.)"

As AIDS has not been around for millions of years I doubt it's influenced the 'evolution' of a person's response to being raped. If you mean STDs in general, they could not influence the response either because one is just as likely to get an STD from consensual sex as you are from non-consensual sex while your chances of receiving inferior genetic material is increased when a woman is raped. According to the theory posted above.

If anything, STDs would only influence human sexuality by increasing the desire for a healthy looking (for that region and culture) mate and a distrust of partners from foreign parts.

As for the 'raping men with a strap-on' idea, I don't believe there's any evidence to suggest pre-historic women did so with any frequency. If we go by both primate and current models men seem to rape either other more than women rape men.

Either way, a man is quite unlikely to get pregnant by such a violation or, more accurately, be impregnated by an inferior male. If we follow the logic of Thornhill and Palmer's theory than a man disliking rape is no different than a man harboring a deep and abiding fear that he will begin menstruating. Obviously, there's another reason why men do not enjoy being raped and it probably applies to women as well.

Given the number of problems that I've found with Thornhill and Palmer's we can say that 'inferior pregnancy' is neither the cause of rape nor only reason that women dislike rape. I would even go so far as to say that it is not even the main reason that women loath rape.

rosco ratbone:
"Who can fathom the cosmic mind of a chthonic diety?"

Asking helps. On occasion.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Your point assumes that men and women loathe rape for the same reasons, Never.

message to diety Have you read the book?