Religious survey

[Stefani]

A few have been able to make some sense of that world--Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed....for a variety of reasons, I choose what Jesus says about it. I dont want to go into whether he was the only one who was right, i really can't say. But that works for me.

Wouldn't think of judging your views at all. You're certainly entitled to them. You have as much a chance of being right about the whole question of a spiritual world as we do - none of us will know till we die what comes next.

To me, the crux of Christianity boils down to one thing. Christ died, and then rose from the dead 3 days later. You either believe that, or you don't. If it did happen - Christ proves there is life after death.

Did he rise from the dead? Or didn't he? I don't know. I suppose that's where individual faith and belief comes in.

All of which makes me wonder... whatever you believe... will you be choosing your own destiny once you die?

 

[snowy ciara]

All of which makes me wonder... whatever you believe... will you be choosing your own destiny once you die?

Have you ever read "the Last Battle" by C.S. Lewis? There's a spot in the end where the soldiers toss another one into the stable. The guy's having a personal crisis because he's always worshiped Tash but now they're saying Aslan and Tash are the same and he's having a minor freak out cause he's thinking he's doomed to hell because he's a Tash worshiper. But he's always been a good guy. Tash was into all this bad ass stuff and Aslan, (being Aslan) was not, since he was the hero of the story and all that, but he's worried. The thing is, the soldier was a good guy. He was honorable and chivalric and all that stuff and Aslan called him over and basically said "Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter that you worshiped a false god all your life; what matters is you served him honestly and well and your sacrifices have not gone unnoticed. Enjoy heaven..." The fact that the guy lived an honorable and decent life was enough.

Although the Chronicles of Narnia were allegorical tales of the Bible and I don't really consider myself Christian anymore, that scene had a profound impact on me. What I got from it was that it doesn't really matter what you call your "Deity of Choice" as Paul put it in the promises thread. What matters is how you live. Do the best you can, try to leave the world a better place than you found it (or at least cause as little damage as possible!) and it'll all work out in the end. I try not to worry about the next life, as this one is challenging enough as it is! I don't want to borrow trouble, as a good friend says. I'm just doing the best as I can on this life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As the semi-resident, semi-holy man, i probably should respond in some way to this thread...i dont know who started it, but it is interesting.

I appreciate the well thought out responses and what really amazes me is that we have gone so many pages, and i have yet to pick up on one flame. I wish the church were more like this. Someone once said the church was like a hospital that shoots it own wounded. NOt all churches are like that, but many are.

I dont want to respond to any one post, but since others have shared what they think, i would liike to share my beliefs as well. I hope they are as welcome as everyone elses.

I believe there is a spiritual world, a world that cannot be apprehended by our five regular senses. I dont believe that on our own, we can make much sense of that world. We find it totally confusing, and far above our comprehension. A few have been able to make some sense of that world--Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed....for a variety of reasons, I choose what Jesus says about it. I dont want to go into whether he was the only one who was right, i really can't say. But that works for me.

I admit i have trouble thinking that just anyone can make sense of this spiritual world on their own. I have been doing it professionally for 16 years now, and i admit to not understanding a lot. Most people i know, who take issues of faith very seriously are also skeptical of easy answers when it comes to spiritual issues--that includes buddhists and hiindus as well as Christians and Jews. The more you dig into spiriitual issues, the more you realize you dont know about this world you are starting, barely starting to connect with.

I am a fan of organized religion mostly because i am not in favor of disorganized spirituality. Buddhists will tell you of the eightfold path, muslims of the five pillars, Christians of the grace, and Jews the Law.

The 11th and 12 century mystics (and this was the flowering age of Christian mysticism) all stressed two things--abandonemnt to the heart of God, and reliance upon doctrine. that second always surprised me, but i realized that they knew they needed to be grounded in something, otherwise they would float off like kites....

Please dont take any of this as being judgmental of any other post on this board. This is just me.

I think what holds my interest and continued exploration into Buddhism as opposed to Christianity is that it does recognise humans as worthy and capable of reaching a point of understanding and enlightenment. There is no god to whom you look to get the answers from, no promotion of the idea that by serving and praying to God you can make your way to heaven, but there is an overall message that every being has the potential to reach enlightenment just as Buddha did thus making them a Buddha too. It is promotion of the use of self to reach that enlightenment, continual seeking of answers through one's own effort, instead of waiting to be told what and how to reach it based on the efforts of another. In that sense it is very much up to the individual to choose and make their own path and to take responsibility for every action they make. It doesn't lend itself to the misguided notions some of my Christian friends have had that they are free to do what they want as long as they ask forgiveness so it can be all made okay.....that idea promotes the idea that you can harm a fellow human being and basically get away with it by saying you're sorry...a simplified version of the thought pattern, but the way many think and operate none the less.

That being said, if you look at history (of the ancient kind) and examine the stories surrounding religion and origins, the stories are the same throughout the religions with only a change in location, names, and importance attached to particular characters. From an historical viewpoint and the understanding that time and place were measured differently between various peoples, narratives were passed initially by spoken word only (which naturally brings about small changes in each telling), it is highly probable they all tell of the same events, the same people, the same outcomes, thus all religions are one in the same with only the assigned names and doctrines of humans making a perceived division.

As to holy men or women. I am usually suspicious of those who promote themselves as such which I realise is for the most part tied into my own belief system. I find the spiritual and/or holy are few and far between. I would say I had the joy of knowing one in my youth. He's a Christian minister and I met him in the earlier days of his career (ironically now, he was Dutch but studied theology in Oz), and gave of himself in a way which did not put him on a self imposed pedestal but made all feel welcome and equal in his presence. He had an uncanny way of making people from all classes and race and circumstance feel valued and equal, and his presence was felt in a way which defied his quiet and unassuming manner. I was overjoyed when our paths crossed unexpectedly again a few years back while I was at university....lol, I was not surprised his name and presence still created a feeling of warmth, love and respect from all who knew him or had the fortune of crossing his path in some way. It is also not amazing to me he has become highly respected worldwide for his work and writing and is now teaching and ministering in Canada I believe.

Catalina

 

[DwayneDibley]

Well put Dibs!

In ancient times cultures like the Greeks, Romans, etc... invented gods to explain the things they didn't understand. Zeus threw lightning bolts, Neptune caused sea storms, Helios pulled the chariot of the sun across the sky...

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people today use religion to explain death. No one wants to believe that death is The End. Religion promises that if you live your life according to their little rulebook - you get to live forever! It's pretty easy to see how they were able to sell that myth for so many centuries.

How much better would it be if people did good, not because they expected to get into heaven, but simply because it was the right thing to do?

I'm glad someone else thinks the same way as me!

There is a small part of me that does wish i was part of an organised religion, but I am just too cynical and questioning to do that. There's probably a spiritual side of me that's trying to burst out and escape.

Reading Catalina's posts here and what little I already know about buddhism makes it sound like a very viable 'religion', one which puts humans in the driving seat, makes us more the masters of our own destiny. I too don't like the idea of relying on some mythical 'omnipotent' being fogiving me or showing me the way!

Just as an aside, I don't believe anyone is omnipotent. Think of it this way: Can God create a rock he can't lift? If he can, that's something he can't do. If he can't create a rock he can't lift, that's something he can't do. Bit simplistic, but it illustrates the point!

 

[arctic-stranger]

cut...
There is a small part of me that does wish i was part of an organised religion, but I am just too cynical and questioning to do that. There's probably a spiritual side of me that's trying to burst out and escape.

by all means, let that side burst out. who knows what you might find!

Reading Catalina's posts here and what little I already know about buddhism makes it sound like a very viable 'religion', one which puts humans in the driving seat, makes us more the masters of our own destiny. I too don't like the idea of relying on some mythical 'omnipotent' being fogiving me or showing me the way!

for the record there are many types of buddhism. What catalina is describing sounds like the Rinzai (southern) Zen School. the Northern school would be much different, with much more emphasis on practice, especially meditation. Tibetian buddhism is very different from Zen. And then it is practiced very differently in southeast Asia.

But she is right in that almost all forms of Buddhism are not deistic. There is a great reliance on Human Enlightenment, with little and mostly no dependence on any kind of god to achieve it.

Just as an aside, I don't believe anyone is omnipotent. Think of it this way: Can God create a rock he can't lift? If he can, that's something he can't do. If he can't create a rock he can't lift, that's something he can't do. Bit simplistic, but it illustrates the point!

Well, not really. What are you asking is whether God can be limited, even by his/her own actions. If you start with an unlimited god, it is the question that ends up being faulty (much like asking "what shape is Yellow?") and not the answer...or apparent lack of answer.

Better yet is Socrates question. Is something good because God says it is good, or does God say it is good because it inherently is good? The former leaves us with no real moral base that we can consistantly rely on (what if god suddenly decided genocide was a good thing?) and the latter limits god to the notions of good, which makes the good greater than god.

 

[catalina_francisco]

for the record there are many types of buddhism. What catalina is describing sounds like the Rinzai (southern) Zen School. the Northern school would be much different, with much more emphasis on practice, especially meditation. Tibetian buddhism is very different from Zen. And then it is practiced very differently in southeast Asia.

But she is right in that almost all forms of Buddhism are not deistic. There is a great reliance on Human Enlightenment, with little and mostly no dependence on any kind of god to achieve it.

Actually I am not a big fan of Zen Buddhism....it seems popular and in for the US though. I am more in line with Mahayana or Humanistic Buddhism, though all factions share similar essentials and meditation is a common factor...and the writings of the Dalai Lama and some who have lived his message feature heavily in my library (lol, alongside Spong). Being Australian and living there until recently, my experiences of Buddhism have been primarily and solely through teachers from Asia. Language can be difficult at times, but not impossible...usually there is someone who can translate on a level that is understandable. I certainly miss that exposure and opportunity living here, especially the temple, meditation hall, and school that was 15 minutes from my home....there were many happy hours spent immersed in that environment.

Catalina

 

[arctic-stranger]

Actually I am not a big fan of Zen Buddhism....it seems popular and in for the US though. I am more in line with Mahayana or Humanistic Buddhism, though all factions share similar essentials and meditation is a common factor...and the writings of the Dalai Lama and some who have lived his message feature heavily in my library (lol, alongside Spong). Being Australian and living there until recently, my experiences of Buddhism have been primarily and solely through teachers from Asia. Language can be difficult at times, but not impossible...usually there is someone who can translate on a level that is understandable. I certainly miss that exposure and opportunity living here, especially the temple, meditation hall, and school that was 15 minutes from my home....there were many happy hours spent immersed in that environment.

Catalina

we are fortunate in having both a korean zen temple and a tibetian community here. I am pretty good friends with the abbot of the zen center, and once had a public dialog with a visiting Monk, which we both enjoyed immensely.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

Well put Dibs!

In ancient times cultures like the Greeks, Romans, etc... invented gods to explain the things they didn't understand. Zeus threw lightning bolts, Neptune caused sea storms, Helios pulled the chariot of the sun across the sky...

Ok, I'm not meaning to crash on you because, honestly, I've read many of your posts and I like your general style, but what makes their "invented" gods any more or less valid than the Abrahamic god (call him what you will)? You said, I believe, in a later post "none of us will know til we die what comes next," so why is it that these beliefs are discounted as antiquated "mythology" and the newer Abrahamic traditions are seen as "religion"? I get irritated when I see people discount the beliefs of reconstructionist pagans (those that follow a religion based on an earlier religion i.e. Hellenism, Asatru, Khemeticism, etc.) as a belief in silly mythologies that everyone learns as a child as amusing stories. Ok, so the Greeks and Romans "invented" gods to explain natural phenomena and govern life and the Jews and the Muslims "invented" a god to explain what they saw and dictate their culture. What's the big difference?
No one knows what comes after life ends, if indeed anything does. To me, anyone's beliefs are as valid as mine so long as they don't harm or impead me. Religion is what works for each person, it's what gets them through the hard times and adds joy to the happy times. If it works for someone, who's to say that that person is wrong?

P.S. I really am not trying to crash on Stefani in particular. I think I just need to vent and I know that PMS is upon me; working in a college town has been hell the past few days.

Anyway, food for the collective thought....

[/rant] *ducks the return fire*

 

[Stefani]

Ok, I'm not meaning to crash on you because, honestly, I've read many of your posts and I like your general style, but what makes their "invented" gods any more or less valid than the Abrahamic god (call him what you will)?

No reason to duck dear, I wouldn't fire back at you. I'm a lover, not a fighter.

I agree with you. I suppose the laugh could all be on us when we die and discover that Zeus, Hera, Athena, etc... are all running the show, and they're damn pissed off that we've ignored them for centuries.

All of which reminds me of a Star Trek episode (disclaimer: I am NOT a Trekkie) where Capt Kirk & Co find a planet that is inhabited by all of the ancient gods that are no longer worshipped on Earth. I don't remember the details, but it had something to do with, once they were no longer worshipped they were banished to this planet. Thought the whole idea of it was kind of cool.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

Is Unitarian Universalist Christian or Non-denominational?

 

[arctic-stranger]

Is Unitarian Universalist Christian or Non-denominational?

Neither really. Uniterians do not believe in the Deity of Jesus, and while some of them revere Jesus as a moral teacher, others are not so Jesus oriented. But they are a denomination, at least in a social sense.

 

[m wisdom]

I voted agnostic.

I did a lot off soul searching when I was younger, but I'm a very logical person so I only found faults with every religion. And I haven't been able to find anything that can tell me if there is a spiritual world at all or not. So I did the only logical thing I could and came to the conclusion that I'm completely clueless, and are most likely not going to know anything until I die.

So now I simply live my life in what I think is a good way and if there is a heaven or similar I hope that is enough to get in. And if it's not I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to go there anyway.

As a life philosophy I try to live by what is usually called the golden rule. "Do to others what you want them to do to you." So far that have worked just fine for me.

 

[Xelebes]

I voted agnostic.

I did a lot off soul searching when I was younger, but I'm a very logical person so I only found faults with every religion. And I haven't been able to find anything that can tell me if there is a spiritual world at all or not. So I did the only logical thing I could and came to the conclusion that I'm completely clueless, and are most likely not going to know anything until I die.

So now I simply live my life in what I think is a good way and if there is a heaven or similar I hope that is enough to get in. And if it's not I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to go there anyway.

As a life philosophy I try to live by what is usually called the golden rule. "Do to others what you want them to do to you." So far that have worked just fine for me.

Pretty much sums up how I became an agnostic too.

 

[Etoile]

Is it shameful or weird that I just can't be bothered with religion or spirituality?

 

[Xelebes]

Is it shameful or weird that I just can't be bothered with religion or spirituality?

Personally, I am not bothered by religion but concerning spirituality, I am certain that I don't have a soul. Other than that, deities concern me not.

 

[Aeroil]

Is it shameful or weird that I just can't be bothered with religion or spirituality?

Not at all, it's actually a pretty good choice I think.

 

[arctic-stranger]

Is it shameful or weird that I just can't be bothered with religion or spirituality?

It is neither, but as someone who is, the the words of Flannery O'Conner, Christ haunted, I find it very interesting. Were you ever interested in anything spiritual or religious?

 

[BlondGirl]

Christian, and not embarrassed about it.

I'll second that.

 

[Kirabeth]

i was raised freewill baptist, married a wesslin, but what do i consider myself now.......... mmmmmmm just freewill i supose.

I do believe in the Bible and God, I just don't believe in the church. I guess what I mean is that I don't feel the church should tell people what to beleive or how to live their lives.

anyway just my 2 cents

 

[Etoile]

It is neither, but as someone who is, the the words of Flannery O'Conner, Christ haunted, I find it very interesting. Were you ever interested in anything spiritual or religious?

Nope. I've never been particularly interested in it. I was raised Unitarian Universalist so my experiences at church were more sociopolitical rather than spiritual and religious. I know there are a great many UUs who find spirituality in the church, but it never interested me. I learned about the theologies of other religions more out of a cultural curiosity rather than a search for my own meaning, and questions were always more in terms of personal ethics and morality rather than what the religion said was right.

 

[shayne_mayhem]

I have my own theology, but I'm Catholic by culture.
P.S. the new pope sucks.

 

[lektra]

I have my own theology, but I'm Catholic by culture.
P.S. the new pope sucks.

Absolutely!

i said I was Agnostic, but really I'm a recovering catholic and probably always will be, see i can't even lie without catholic-guilting myself into fessing up!

 

[DVS]

Why are Atheist and Agnostic within the same category? One knows he doesn't believe while the other knows he doesn't know.

Two very different answers to the question.

 

[DVS]

Have you ever read "the Last Battle" by C.S. Lewis? There's a spot in the end where the soldiers toss another one into the stable. The guy's having a personal crisis because he's always worshiped Tash but now they're saying Aslan and Tash are the same and he's having a minor freak out cause he's thinking he's doomed to hell because he's a Tash worshiper. But he's always been a good guy. Tash was into all this bad ass stuff and Aslan, (being Aslan) was not, since he was the hero of the story and all that, but he's worried. The thing is, the soldier was a good guy. He was honorable and chivalric and all that stuff and Aslan called him over and basically said "Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter that you worshiped a false god all your life; what matters is you served him honestly and well and your sacrifices have not gone unnoticed. Enjoy heaven..." The fact that the guy lived an honorable and decent life was enough.

OK, this is just a qustion. I'm not bashing anyone or any religion with this, but if all of this is true, did the 9-11 hijackers get to meet up with all of those virgins, like they were told they would? After all, they did believe completely in theiir religion, didn't they?

 

[arctic-stranger]

I have my own theology, but I'm Catholic by culture.
P.S. the new pope sucks.

That was my first impression of him (I had to read some of his stuff in graduate school--he is brillant, but incredibly biased), but so far i have been impressed with his ability to be a Pope and not an Inquisitor.

Let's hope it lasts...