Submission a Gift or What?

[nh23]

Ummm, if you read my posts way back to other threads on this same topic several years back (and this one as well), you will see I said both were gifts to each other, PYL and pyl...nothing new there and to me same as when you exchange presents at Christmas, Easter, or for birthdays...still a gift even though you gave one and received one from that person...you give your partner gifts, they give you gifts, still gifts...and yes, I think children are a gift to the relationship and each other.

Catalina

I guess it comes down to a matter of wording then. I don't see a part of my personality as being a gift. It's who I am. I'm not special because of it. Neither is a Dominant special in my mind because his personality makes him a Dominant. It's who he is. The relationship can be special and beautiful.. but I just don't like considering a part of my personality as being a gift.

 

[BiBunny]

I guess it comes down to a matter of wording then. I don't see a part of my personality as being a gift. It's who I am. I'm not special because of it. Neither is a Dominant special in my mind because his personality makes him a Dominant. It's who he is. The relationship can be special and beautiful.. but I just don't like considering a part of my personality as being a gift.

Yeah. That. What you said. Thank you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I said Bunny would be a shitty gift, not Bunny is a shitty person. Big difference there. I guess I'm not articulating well because I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea about what I'm talking about. I'll shut up while I'm still ahead, I think.

I know what your talking about, but I don't agree. You seem to think to be a perfect gift to someone, you have to be perfect...no-one is perfect and unfortunately you have let too many make you feel you are not someone to be treasured as a partner because they are too immature to have a real relationship with a real person...I bet they had more than a few imperfections themselves, but if you let that get in your way, you wouldn't have wanted them either would you? F says without my imperfections, and moments when I make him feel like he could strangle me with delight (and I him), he would find me empty, boring, and unattractive...the bad points make me just as enticing to him as the good ones...that is what relationships with real people are about....accepting all of them. Of course, there is another way to look at this...if you see yourself as qualifying as a shitty gift, what does that say about the value you place on the person you would submit to? Iif you look at your being a poor gift, why should they even consider you unless they are not very good themselves in your eyes? Does that make sense? I think you sell yourself way too short Bunny.
Add to that many here, myself included, have told you more than once how special you are...why listen to a few deadbeats over all us gorgeous peeps?!!


Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[nh23]

*****

My thoughts exactly.. I just didn't know how to word it nicely. Thanks CM.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[nh23]

*****

Nope I wouldn't call it rude at all. I would call it rational.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ah but ladies, you have both reproduced yourselves so I think it unfair to expect another not to...why would it be any less out of submission (and love as was made clear) than out of love alone which I am assuming you both used as the reason for your own offspring coming to be?

Catalina

 

[nh23]

Ah but ladies, you have both reproduced yourselves so I think it unfair to expect another not to...why would it be any less out of submission (and love as was made clear) than out of love alone which I am assuming you both used as the reason for your own offspring coming to be?

Catalina

Maybe if it was a joint decision..but go back and read her post.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I guess it comes down to a matter of wording then. I don't see a part of my personality as being a gift. It's who I am. I'm not special because of it. Neither is a Dominant special in my mind because his personality makes him a Dominant. It's who he is. The relationship can be special and beautiful.. but I just don't like considering a part of my personality as being a gift.

Then what makes you special enough for your partner to bother being with you if not some aspect of your personality at the very least? Why shouldn't they go find someone who is special if you do not see yourself as special in any way? I for one think the submissive part of my personality to be one of the better traits, and also special in today's world where it is often considered bad for a woman to be so, but then maybe I am strange.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Maybe if it was a joint decision..but go back and read her post.

I read it, and understanding her mindset, I have no doubt she would not be springing a baby upon him of her own whim and misguided notion it would be something she could impress him with....she did say if it was required, and given the mindset, I have no doubt the child would be cared for with as much love and attention as her PYL and be a further extension of that bond of D/s and love.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[nh23]

*****

I second that.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Since I consider babies and children to be human beings, I don't think that they should be created to be a 'gift' to someone else, whether out of love or D/s or whatnot.

 

[EmpressFi]

I dont think Bunny or Nh are saying they arent good people or arent worthing of being cared for/in a relationship or anything like that...

I think that they just look at it differently and see the way that you and I see things as overly romanticized. Whereas they see things as "This is who I am".. love me or leave me.. your choice.

neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong.. we just are who we are. They're never going to say to us "ohhhh I see your point.. you're right" anymore than we're going to say the same to them. We're individuals and think differently.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh I know I've done more than my share of contributing to the over-population of the planet, Cat, and I would never wish to remove the right to reproduce from anyone... however, I feel that the issues, responsibilities, chalenges, etc of parenthood need a firmer foundation than "THE ONE wants a baby, therefore I shall have a baby!" Even if Love is involved.

LOL, reality is, since time began, most babies have been the result of the notion of reproducing for the male ego, continuing the family line, and a demonstration of shared love so I don't see it as odd that someone would think it acceptable to have children to someone they were in a lifetime relationship with and who wanted them to have a baby with them...and to me, she made it clear it would be because HE wanted her to, not because she was going behind his back to do so of her own free will. Nothing strange or new there. Sheesh, I've lost count of how many times my mother has told me I was a product of her feeling it was her duty to give my father a child of his own...same thing, except there wasn't the love I would have liked between them.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I dont think Bunny or Nh are saying they arent good people or arent worthing of being cared for/in a relationship or anything like that...

I think that they just look at it differently and see the way that you and I see things as overly romanticized. Whereas they see things as "This is who I am".. love me or leave me.. your choice.

neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong.. we just are who we are. They're never going to say to us "ohhhh I see your point.. you're right" anymore than we're going to say the same to them. We're individuals and think differently.

LOL, maybe though I don't think I have a romanticised view, just a realistic one in that none of us are perfect so why waste time justifying to the world how unworthy or less than perfect and deserving I am as a partner when the reality is he has just as many faults shocking as that may be for some to think of being a PYL state of affairs...but it is human and we accept the whole, not just what appears when rose coloured glasses are whisked on.

Catalina

 

[nh23]

Then what makes you special enough for your partner to bother being with you if not some aspect of your personality at the very least? Why shouldn't they go find someone who is special if you do not see yourself as special in any way? I for one think the submissive part of my personality to be one of the better traits, and also special in today's world where it is often considered bad for a woman to be so, but then maybe I am strange.

Catalina

I didn't say I don't see myself as special..the whole package..me. Being submissive is a part of who I am. I'm not in the mindset that my shit doesn't stink though. I don't think so highly of myself that I think my being submissive makes me any better than anyone else. I am a product of what ever made me the way I am. I don't choose to be this way to be special. It's who I am. It's not a trait I'm ashamed of..nor is it a trait I feel I need special treatment for. It's just me. The men who love me, love me for me. To the Dominant in my life, it's a part of me he needs, it may be my best trait..or not. I guess that's for him to decide. I wonder how many Dominants see submission as a gift? And with that.. I"m done with this debate. I've stated over and over how I feel..it's obviously not the popular choice. But, it's my opinion, which is what SKL asked for.

 

[nh23]

I dont think Bunny or Nh are saying they arent good people or arent worthing of being cared for/in a relationship or anything like that...

I think that they just look at it differently and see the way that you and I see things as overly romanticized. Whereas they see things as "This is who I am".. love me or leave me.. your choice.

neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong.. we just are who we are. They're never going to say to us "ohhhh I see your point.. you're right" anymore than we're going to say the same to them. We're individuals and think differently.

Thank You!

 

[EmpressFi]

LOL, reality is, since time began, most babies have been the result of the notion of reproducing for the male ego, continuing the family line, and a demonstration of shared love so I don't see it as odd that someone would think it acceptable to have children to someone they were in a lifetime relationship with and who wanted them to have a baby with them...and to me, she made it clear it would be because HE wanted her to, not because she was going behind his back to do so of her own free will. Nothing strange or new there. Sheesh, I've lost count of how many times my mother has told me I was a product of her feeling it was her duty to give my father a child of his own...same thing, except there wasn't the love I would have liked between them.

Catalina

maybe I am just wired wrong then...ok.. while I agree..having a babe solely because HE wanted one..yeah..that's pretty stupid.. sorry.. it is... however.. I will say.. that it must have been implanted in me at some point in my indoctrination..because from pretty much the first time a doctor said, "I'm sorry, you just cant have children."... I've apologized ohhhh at least a dozen times to Malin for being broken..for not being able to provide him with a child. Not out of duty.. well maybe a little.. because that's what HE wants.. I want it too.. I've wanted it since I was 16 years old.. but if it were just me.. I'd mourn but be ok.. but it plagues me that I cant give him something he wants too

 

[DeservingBitch]

LOL, reality is, since time began, most babies have been the result of the notion of reproducing for the male ego, continuing the family line, and a demonstration of shared love.

Human beings have done a lot of stupid things since a long time. That doesn't make it right or less stupid.

NOT saying making babies is stupid. But there are a lot of bad reasons why people make babies, and tending to the male ego would certainly be one of them.

 

[nh23]

Human beings have done a lot of stupid things since a long time. That doesn't make it right or less stupid.

NOT saying making babies is stupid. But there are a lot of bad reasons why people make babies, and tending to the male ego would certainly be one of them.

AFuckingMen!

 

[chelleb]

.............

 

[nh23]

Lol.. I was supposed to leave this discussion, but I found a quote by a Dominant that I wanted to share. I can't give credit due to the fact that the article didn't list the Dom's name. But it explains what I was trying to say in a much more articulated way than I could.


"if your submission is a natural imperative to you, if you simply couldn't be you without it, then you are essentially submitting to your own nature. At best this would make it a gift to *yourself*." In essence, He is saying that submission is not a gift if that submission is the acting out of your innate nature.

 

[intothewoods]

LOL, reality is, since time began, most babies have been the result of the notion of reproducing for the male ego, continuing the family line, and a demonstration of shared love so I don't see it as odd that someone would think it acceptable to have children to someone they were in a lifetime relationship with and who wanted them to have a baby with them...and to me, she made it clear it would be because HE wanted her to, not because she was going behind his back to do so of her own free will. Nothing strange or new there. Sheesh, I've lost count of how many times my mother has told me I was a product of her feeling it was her duty to give my father a child of his own...same thing, except there wasn't the love I would have liked between them.

Catalina

Well, I understand that people have had and still do have children for all sorts of reasons, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.