The Doormat Discussion

[Keroin]

I'm guilty of it. I just have no idea what to say about it. That's just me, is all.

But from what I've read and from what others here have told me about you, you are none of the above, not even close.

You seem to be very happy with your current position/relationship.

Come on, you know you're not stupid, ridiculous or an idiot, you know people here enjoy what you have to say. "That's just me" feels like a cop out and I'm not buying it. You're too smart for that. So...what gives?

(BTW, in pm's and emails to me, people have nothing but glowing praise for you - just thought you'd like to know).

 

[Netzach]

This is interesting because there are pyl's on this board who I see as having rock solid self esteem - including, (but certainly not limited to), ITW, Rida, CM, Syd, eastern sun, MIS, even OSG. Sure, we all have moments of self doubt but overall, plenty of pyls here seem to have embraced their status and feel no shame in it. However, if I had a dollar for every pyl post I've read that contains the following sorts of phrases...

"I'm stupid..."

"I'm ridiculous..."

"I'm an idiot..."

"I'm sorry, I shouldn't say anything..."

(etc)

...then I would be flying home in Business Class. This is where I see the unhealthy self esteem. Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

Have you ever read Deborah Tannen on language? I used to have intense impatience with the overly apologetic feminine voice, but her theory is that it's a cooperative instinct and this made sense. It made me less liable to walk around wanting to smack girls in a not-good way.

If you and I are sorting out our social dominance, and I want to give you a hand up wherein I expect you to give me a hand up and we both go up, I'll say "That was dumb of me!"

Which is a cue, and other women usually get it, and go "oh no it's not" or "oh, I've done dumber, haha."

Everyone climbs out ok.

Put a woman and a man into this situation and it usually goes "That was dumb of me!"

No response as he thinks "wow, this chick isn't that competent."

Because men will not want to climb out cooperatively, but competitively.

She's one of the only biological/essentialist people I can stand to read, because brains are just that interesting. I've noticed that I tend to avoid the self-denigrating voice with men and turn it on with women, prior to even reading that. It just confirmed a reason for why I do something I do.

 

[Keroin]

Have you ever read Deborah Tannen on language? I used to have intense impatience with the overly apologetic feminine voice, but her theory is that it's a cooperative instinct and this made sense. It made me less liable to walk around wanting to smack girls in a not-good way.

If you and I are sorting out our social dominance, and I want to give you a hand up wherein I expect you to give me a hand up and we both go up, I'll say "That was dumb of me!"

Which is a cue, and other women usually get it, and go "oh no it's not" or "oh, I've done dumber, haha."

Everyone climbs out ok.

Put a woman and a man into this situation and it usually goes "That was dumb of me!"

No response as he thinks "wow, this chick isn't that competent."

Because men will not want to climb out cooperatively, but competitively.

She's one of the only biological/essentialist people I can stand to read, because brains are just that interesting. I've noticed that I tend to avoid the self-denigrating voice with men and turn it on with women, prior to even reading that. It just confirmed a reason for why I do something I do.

Wow, this actually makes heaps of sense and is very enlightening. I can stop grinding my teeth when I come across the "I'm so stupid" comments from women now, lol.

I guess I relate better to the competitive, male dynamic. This also explains why a lot of real life women have found me intimidating and/or overly critical. *Smiles sheepishly*

Still, when playing a game of doubles tennis with three other women and listening to, "Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry...", every time someone flubs a shot, will still make me want to scream and tear my hair out, simultaneously. I don't think I can change that response. (Also explains why I gravitate to male dominated sports).

Thanks, I'll check out that author when I'm back in the world!

 

[BiBunny]

But from what I've read and from what others here have told me about you, you are none of the above, not even close.

You seem to be very happy with your current position/relationship.

Come on, you know you're not stupid, ridiculous or an idiot, you know people here enjoy what you have to say. "That's just me" feels like a cop out and I'm not buying it. You're too smart for that. So...what gives?

(BTW, in pm's and emails to me, people have nothing but glowing praise for you - just thought you'd like to know).

Intellectually, no, I'm not stupid. Socially? I'm probably mildly retarded in that respect. Do I do stupid things a lot, in hopes I might get a different result? Guilty.

I am very happy in my relationship. For probably the first time in my life, which is an odd feeling, but certainly not one I'm complaining about. Not in the least!

The reason I started the thread really had nothing to do with my relationship. They, and a few others, actually like me the way I am, insanity and all.

It's more of a social commentary, I think. Why's it ok to take advantage of someone who's willing to bend over backwards to make other people happy, if at all possible? And why's it ok to blame said person for being taken advantage of?

"It wouldn't have happened if you had some boundaries," as if that's a rational reason to fuck someone else over. It wouldn't have happened if you weren't an asshole, either, but who's counting?

 

[Netzach]

Intellectually, no, I'm not stupid. Socially? I'm probably mildly retarded in that respect. Do I do stupid things a lot, in hopes I might get a different result? Guilty.

I am very happy in my relationship. For probably the first time in my life, which is an odd feeling, but certainly not one I'm complaining about. Not in the least!

The reason I started the thread really had nothing to do with my relationship. They, and a few others, actually like me the way I am, insanity and all.

It's more of a social commentary, I think. Why's it ok to take advantage of someone who's willing to bend over backwards to make other people happy, if at all possible? And why's it ok to blame said person for being taken advantage of?

"It wouldn't have happened if you had some boundaries," as if that's a rational reason to fuck someone else over. It wouldn't have happened if you weren't an asshole, either, but who's counting?

See, as someone who grew up with absolutely no sense of boundaries and no sense of entitlement to them - it's not so much an issue of people having the right to take advantage of you, serves you right, but an issue of - this is what it is.

This is what it is. The way you play your hand is up to you.

Boundaries aren't something that everyone just has or doesn't - there's a certain element of the innate, but they're also a skill that you can sharpen. They're also something that I'm sorry, but it PAYS to develop, for most people.

What I'm seeing is a lot of throwing up of hands, this is how I am, I can't be otherwise.

It's like saying "you know, I don't come to reading very easily, it's a shame that so much communication is written."

Yeah, it's a shame that people will judge people on the basis of written communication, but it's a skill. It's not a magic wand. Everyone clocks in at different levels, and everyone can improve if they put energy into it.

I didn't consider the option of my own decisions being none of my mother's business till I was 23.

23.

Interestingly, this is concurrent with my pursuit of SM. I just realized that. Interesting.

 

[CutieMouse]

This is interesting because there are pyl's on this board who I see as having rock solid self esteem - including, (but certainly not limited to), ITW, Rida, CM, Syd, eastern sun, MIS, even OSG. Sure, we all have moments of self doubt but overall, plenty of pyls here seem to have embraced their status and feel no shame in it. However, if I had a dollar for every pyl post I've read that contains the following sorts of phrases...

"I'm stupid..."

"I'm ridiculous..."

"I'm an idiot..."

"I'm sorry, I shouldn't say anything..."

(etc)

...then I would be flying home in Business Class. This is where I see the unhealthy self esteem. Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

I have this intense desire to blush and say "Aww shucks..." That self esteem/okay with myself thing was f*ck-all hard won over roughly 20 years of work. LOL

Still, when playing a game of doubles tennis with three other women and listening to, "Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry...", every time someone flubs a shot, will still make me want to scream and tear my hair out, simultaneously. I don't think I can change that response. (Also explains why I gravitate to male dominated sports).

Yes. Lots of yes. When I was younger I was the most apologetic person on the planet... if anything anywhere around me went wrong/wasn't perfect/someone was stressed - I apologized. One day a good friend got fed up and yelled at me about it "For fucks sake STOP apologizing for existing!" and it hit me that I wasn't apologizing for whatever generic situation at hand, as much as I was for just being. (That took a few more years of untraining myself. LOL) Now I apologize if/when it's relevant, but I'm just as likely explain that XYZ 'I'm sorry' comment is more an expression of empathy, than anything else.

Intellectually, no, I'm not stupid. Socially? I'm probably mildly retarded in that respect. Do I do stupid things a lot, in hopes I might get a different result? Guilty.

I am very happy in my relationship. For probably the first time in my life, which is an odd feeling, but certainly not one I'm complaining about. Not in the least!

The reason I started the thread really had nothing to do with my relationship. They, and a few others, actually like me the way I am, insanity and all.

It's more of a social commentary, I think. Why's it ok to take advantage of someone who's willing to bend over backwards to make other people happy, if at all possible? And why's it ok to blame said person for being taken advantage of?

"It wouldn't have happened if you had some boundaries," as if that's a rational reason to fuck someone else over. It wouldn't have happened if you weren't an asshole, either, but who's counting?

IMO one is only taken advantage of to the degree one is willing to be taken advantage of. Therefore, as long as one is willing, what's happening isn't exactly the evil manipulation tango... but that also means put on your big girl panties and suck it up instead of bitching about how mean/wrong/whatever so and so was because you chose to iron their entire linen closet with lavender water, when you should have been studying for a test.

[That was a generic situation, BTW. ]

See, as someone who grew up with absolutely no sense of boundaries and no sense of entitlement to them - it's not so much an issue of people having the right to take advantage of you, serves you right, but an issue of - this is what it is.

This is what it is. The way you play your hand is up to you.

Boundaries aren't something that everyone just has or doesn't - there's a certain element of the innate, but they're also a skill that you can sharpen. They're also something that I'm sorry, but it PAYS to develop, for most people.

What I'm seeing is a lot of throwing up of hands, this is how I am, I can't be otherwise.

It's like saying "you know, I don't come to reading very easily, it's a shame that so much communication is written."

Yeah, it's a shame that people will judge people on the basis of written communication, but it's a skill. It's not a magic wand. Everyone clocks in at different levels, and everyone can improve if they put energy into it.

I didn't consider the option of my own decisions being none of my mother's business till I was 23.

23.

Interestingly, this is concurrent with my pursuit of SM. I just realized that. Interesting.

Yes. Yesyesyesyesyes.

 

[BiBunny]

I never said I didn't make any effort at all. I just think it's shitty that it's considered passe to ever think of someone other than oneself.

And with that, I do believe I'm out of this discussion. It's been interesting.

 

[Keroin]

See, as someone who grew up with absolutely no sense of boundaries and no sense of entitlement to them - it's not so much an issue of people having the right to take advantage of you, serves you right, but an issue of - this is what it is.

This is what it is. The way you play your hand is up to you.

"It is what it is" is an expression we used frequently in the stunt business. Sure a rehearsal day would have been nice. Yes, falling down stairs would be more palatable if I had a pair of pants for wardrobe, so that I could put some knee pads on. Etc, etc, etc. But it is what it is. You can shake your fist in anger and frustration and curse the gods or just find a way to deal because the situation isn't going to change.

Boundaries aren't something that everyone just has or doesn't - there's a certain element of the innate, but they're also a skill that you can sharpen. They're also something that I'm sorry, but it PAYS to develop, for most people.

What I'm seeing is a lot of throwing up of hands, this is how I am, I can't be otherwise.

It's like saying "you know, I don't come to reading very easily, it's a shame that so much communication is written."

Yeah, it's a shame that people will judge people on the basis of written communication, but it's a skill. It's not a magic wand. Everyone clocks in at different levels, and everyone can improve if they put energy into it.

Hey, they have anger management classes for the other end of the spectrum. Same thing. You can learn to be not so much of an asshole, if you choose - wow, radical.

And I didn't come screaming out of the womb on a dirtbike, demanding mangoes and a foot rub, I grew up just as messed up and lacking self esteem as any other girl. My mom's sig line would have read, "You're just not good enough". At some point, I just realized it was a choice and I was willing to do the work - and, like CM said, it is f-ing hard work - to change my behaviour.

I didn't consider the option of my own decisions being none of my mother's business till I was 23.

23.

Interestingly, this is concurrent with my pursuit of SM. I just realized that. Interesting.

Yep, about the same for me. Concurrent with beginning a career I was really stoked about.

I have this intense desire to blush and say "Aww shucks..." That self esteem/okay with myself thing was f*ck-all hard won over roughly 20 years of work. LOL

It's not easy*.

*Understatement.

IMO one is only taken advantage of to the degree one is willing to be taken advantage of.

Ditto.

 

[Keroin]

I never said I didn't make any effort at all. I just think it's shitty that it's considered passe to ever think of someone other than oneself.

And with that, I do believe I'm out of this discussion. It's been interesting.

I don't believe this is true. For a small percentage of the population, perhaps, but my experience is that most people are considerate of others. To varying degrees, certainly, but still, considerate. And most people I know don't think highly of those who take advantage of others.

 

[intothewoods]

As to gender differences and communication...I have been thinking lately about how different my communication style is as compared to my male coworkers. I am more likely to admit mistakes or when I don't know something, but I constantly listen to my coworkers and think, is anyone buying their overconfident bullshit? And I am shocked by how often the answer is yes. I don't know - I like the way I do things, but it does give me pause when their way seems to work.

 

[Keroin]

As to gender differences and communication...I have been thinking lately about how different my communication style is as compared to my male coworkers. I am more likely to admit mistakes or when I don't know something, but I constantly listen to my coworkers and think, is anyone buying their overconfident bullshit? And I am shocked by how often the answer is yes. I don't know - I like the way I do things, but it does give me pause when their way seems to work.

I hate to say it but I don't find this shocking at all. It does work and I've had to do it myself, to get by. I hated it. The woman part of me always stood on the sidelines thinking, "You did not just say that. Tell me you didn't say that."

So, does your way work, too?

 

[intothewoods]

I hate to say it but I don't find this shocking at all. It does work and I've had to do it myself, to get by. I hated it. The woman part of me always stood on the sidelines thinking, "You did not just say that. Tell me you didn't say that."

So, does your way work, too?

Yeah, although sometimes their bullshit doesn't work. I don't know. Limited sample, actually.

My way. Um, it does work too, I suppose. I mean, I don't do the over-apologizing or I'm-so-stupid thing. I have just stopped apologizing to my male counterparts. They don't apologize to me, and they really aren't interested in hearing an apology. We all just move on.

Anyway, I just think it's smart to assess where our position is weak. I am typically very cautious about assessing risk, more cautious than those I work with (but not way out of bounds for what I do). Some people appreciate that. Others aren't really interested in nuance. I'm not quite sure how much of this is feminine and how much is my personality and also prior training.

 

[rida]

*snip*

If you and I are sorting out our social dominance, and I want to give you a hand up wherein I expect you to give me a hand up and we both go up, I'll say "That was dumb of me!"

Which is a cue, and other women usually get it, and go "oh no it's not" or "oh, I've done dumber, haha."

Everyone climbs out ok.
*snip*

With my coworkers (all females) the standard answer to: "that was dumb of me!" is "yeah, you are absolutely right!"
but we also like to call ourselves "the pirana's" ...

See, as someone who grew up with absolutely no sense of boundaries and no sense of entitlement to them - it's not so much an issue of people having the right to take advantage of you, serves you right, but an issue of - this is what it is.

This is what it is. The way you play your hand is up to you.

Boundaries aren't something that everyone just has or doesn't - there's a certain element of the innate, but they're also a skill that you can sharpen. They're also something that I'm sorry, but it PAYS to develop, for most people.

What I'm seeing is a lot of throwing up of hands, this is how I am, I can't be otherwise.

It's like saying "you know, I don't come to reading very easily, it's a shame that so much communication is written."

Yeah, it's a shame that people will judge people on the basis of written communication, but it's a skill. It's not a magic wand. Everyone clocks in at different levels, and everyone can improve if they put energy into it.

I didn't consider the option of my own decisions being none of my mother's business till I was 23.

23.

Interestingly, this is concurrent with my pursuit of SM. I just realized that. Interesting.

I have mixed feeling when it comes to people that are apologetic all the time.

I have a colleague that apologizes all the time. In her case the reason being that if someone says "sorry" the tension dissipates and things go back to normal, a very Japanese take on the concept of "wa" (circle, peace) in the workplace. Japan is a society where apologizing is often demanded and really does smooth social interactions. (If you were late in reporting your renewed visa status at your word office, they used to make your write a "gomennasai" - litterally "I'm sorry" - letter. They seem to have stopped thou)

That being said, there are two type of "apologizers" that I cannot stand: the manipulators and the passive-aggressive types.

When it comes to boundaries. I'm not someone that can actively stand up for herself all that well. I really have a hard time saying no. So I've learned to avoid situations that can turn confrontational by either trying to deflate them or stay out of it, and also by not volunteering for anything.

I guess I'm a doormat in a way, so I've learned to just go lay where is safe

As to gender differences and communication...I have been thinking lately about how different my communication style is as compared to my male coworkers. I am more likely to admit mistakes or when I don't know something, but I constantly listen to my coworkers and think, is anyone buying their overconfident bullshit? And I am shocked by how often the answer is yes. I don't know - I like the way I do things, but it does give me pause when their way seems to work.

Add to communication gender differences also cultural differences like the American Way and the Japanese Way ... and you get a very interesting situations (and billion dollars headaches for many a multinational corporation )

 

[rida]

forgot to add:

I have this intense desire to blush and say "Aww shucks..." That self esteem/okay with myself thing was f*ck-all hard won over roughly 20 years of work. LOL

yep, it came with time.

although if I'm honest with myself ... I never really believed to be totally worthless. Less pretty, or less literate, or less athletic or less artistic or less smart, or less liked, yes. But worthless ... somehow no. I guess I was lucky and I had a very good childhood.

 

[YourCaptor]

I've studied some material on psychological differences between men and women.

Trait wise one of the seemingly inherent differences across all but a minority of cultures is that women seem to have more communicative intelligence while men have more spacial intelligence.

My professor at the time, powerful feminine woman added, her perspective as to why that difference exists. She says its because men have the majority of control, so for a women to get what she wants, its in her interest to approach the matter more diplomatically.

Now looking at the type of language being discussed. I wonder if it is actually more sophisticated. We may not see it that way as typical masculine traits are seen as better. So that bias needs accounting for.

 

[ownedsubgal]

See, as someone who grew up with absolutely no sense of boundaries and no sense of entitlement to them - it's not so much an issue of people having the right to take advantage of you, serves you right, but an issue of - this is what it is.

This is what it is. The way you play your hand is up to you.

Boundaries aren't something that everyone just has or doesn't - there's a certain element of the innate, but they're also a skill that you can sharpen. They're also something that I'm sorry, but it PAYS to develop, for most people.

What I'm seeing is a lot of throwing up of hands, this is how I am, I can't be otherwise.

It's like saying "you know, I don't come to reading very easily, it's a shame that so much communication is written."

Yeah, it's a shame that people will judge people on the basis of written communication, but it's a skill. It's not a magic wand. Everyone clocks in at different levels, and everyone can improve if they put energy into it.

the problem with this argument is that it reiterates all the reasons why those with submissive personalities don't have much to feel warm and fuzzy about. it is viewed as a handicap...like the example you gave of a learning disability...that one needs to be ever-mindful of, make accommodations for, and camouflage just in order to get by in society at large. yes, i can (and have at points in my life) take great pains to play a very non-submissive role, to give off every appearance of the strong, confident, don't mess with me chick. and yes, when i have managed to pull it off, however temporarily, it led to more respect and much less being screwed with...it also was only a weak shell always on the verge of cracking, and only cemented the belief i had always received from society that the real me was something weak and worthless that no one could ever possibly want, love, respect, value.

in the D/s lifestyle, to my initial amazement, it is even worse. how many times has it been stated and restated emphatically how NO decent Dominant would value submission that was freely given to others rather than being controlled and carefully reserved for them? how many times is the image of the strong, independent and capable woman, easily taking charge of kids and work, standing up for herself and doing for herself without problem...then going home to bend knee to her Dominant...preached as the image of the ideal submissive woman??

why can't submissive personalities be so valued, so appreciated? why are we trash unless we learn how to wear masks and go about life living a complete lie? what the heck is so gosh darn terrible about being a doormat?





*apologies: no anger directed toward you Netz, just the issue*

 

[ownedsubgal]

IMO one is only taken advantage of to the degree one is willing to be taken advantage of. Therefore, as long as one is willing, what's happening isn't exactly the evil manipulation tango... but that also means put on your big girl panties and suck it up instead of bitching about how mean/wrong/whatever so and so was because you chose to iron their entire linen closet with lavender water, when you should have been studying for a test.

[That was a generic situation, BTW. ]

this viewpoint is a very popular one which i've heard many times, and i can only say that it comes from those who have no earthly idea what it means and what it feels like to live in a state of powerlessness, of which submissiveness is only one. in life, i have only been hurt, stomped upon, cruelly abused, tortured, neglected...only because i willed it, allowed it to be so. pop psych tells us this is so. and perhaps they are right...after all, i could have just killed myself.

 

[eastern sun]

the problem with this argument is that it reiterates all the reasons why those with submissive personalities don't have much to feel warm and fuzzy about. it is viewed as a handicap...like the example you gave of a learning disability...that one needs to be ever-mindful of, make accommodations for, and camouflage just in order to get by in society at large. yes, i can (and have at points in my life) take great pains to play a very non-submissive role, to give off every appearance of the strong, confident, don't mess with me chick. and yes, when i have managed to pull it off, however temporarily, it led to more respect and much less being screwed with...it also was only a weak shell always on the verge of cracking, and only cemented the belief i had always received from society that the real me was something weak and worthless that no one could ever possibly want, love, respect, value.

in the D/s lifestyle, to my initial amazement, it is even worse. how many times has it been stated and restated emphatically how NO decent Dominant would value submission that was freely given to others rather than being controlled and carefully reserved for them? how many times is the image of the strong, independent and capable woman, easily taking charge of kids and work, standing up for herself and doing for herself without problem...then going home to bend knee to her Dominant...preached as the image of the ideal submissive woman??

why can't submissive personalities be so valued, so appreciated? why are we trash unless we learn how to wear masks and go about life living a complete lie? what the heck is so gosh darn terrible about being a doormat?





*apologies: no anger directed toward you Netz, just the issue*

If "doormats" are so easily abused, maybe it's easier to blame the victim and allow the abusers to hide behind the "but you let me/wanted it/didn't stop me" excuse. In other words, like the skimpily clothed rape victim, "you shouldn't have put yourself in that position in the first place." i.e. You're making it impossible for me to keep my worst impulses at bay. . .

Human beings can be uncivilized brutes.

My friend's sister's throat was cut this summer, and everyone agreed she was the crazy one, insisting on walking home late at night from the train station in a bad neighborhood.

 

[00Syd]

This is interesting because there are pyl's on this board who I see as having rock solid self esteem - including, (but certainly not limited to), ITW, Rida, CM, Syd, eastern sun, MIS, even OSG. Sure, we all have moments of self doubt but overall, plenty of pyls here seem to have embraced their status and feel no shame in it.

I just came across this and hot damn I'm flattered!

***

Also wanted to say that even though I haven't been posting on this thread, I've been reading it with interest.



*Goes back to lurking*

 

[ownedsubgal]

If "doormats" are so easily abused, maybe it's easier to blame the victim and allow the abusers to hide behind the "but you let me/wanted it/didn't stop me" excuse. In other words, like the skimpily clothed rape victim, "you shouldn't have put yourself in that position in the first place." i.e. You're making it impossible for me to keep my worst impulses at bay. . .

Human beings can be uncivilized brutes.

My friend's sister's throat was cut this summer, and everyone agreed she was the crazy one, insisting on walking home late at night from the train station in a bad neighborhood.

a sad indictment on our society...makes me wonder if the day will ever come when we question and punish the abusers half as much as we do their victims. so sorry about your friend's sister, she did not ask for that.

 

[Netzach]

the problem with this argument is that it reiterates all the reasons why those with submissive personalities don't have much to feel warm and fuzzy about. it is viewed as a handicap...like the example you gave of a learning disability...that one needs to be ever-mindful of, make accommodations for, and camouflage just in order to get by in society at large. yes, i can (and have at points in my life) take great pains to play a very non-submissive role, to give off every appearance of the strong, confident, don't mess with me chick. and yes, when i have managed to pull it off, however temporarily, it led to more respect and much less being screwed with...it also was only a weak shell always on the verge of cracking, and only cemented the belief i had always received from society that the real me was something weak and worthless that no one could ever possibly want, love, respect, value.

To this I say, the world sucks. Everyone has to negotiate it. Most people have to not be everything they are to do so. Yep. I want to chain pretty boys to my radiator and make them cry and scream, it's not like I thought myself all that lovable for it until I met the right subjects.

in the D/s lifestyle, to my initial amazement, it is even worse. how many times has it been stated and restated emphatically how NO decent Dominant would value submission that was freely given to others rather than being controlled and carefully reserved for them? how many times is the image of the strong, independent and capable woman, easily taking charge of kids and work, standing up for herself and doing for herself without problem...then going home to bend knee to her Dominant...preached as the image of the ideal submissive woman??

My response to this is that this fuck all sucks to hell and we're able to do more about it. In D/s it's a more controlled concept, in which we should remain sensitive to the notion that because we don't like something doesn't mean anyone can't like that same thing. I can't really expect this from a mainstream that replaces one blonde vapid sexpot for the next identical model every ten seconds, and got everyone to buy cars with crap gas mileage for almost a decade.

Personally, I like people whose submission can be easily and uncomplicatedly pointed at any proxy I want without drama. So I totally hear what you're saying, in this sense.

My take on it is that I can't fix the fucking world, but I can police the part of it that pertains to my sexuality, and for damn sure I don't want anyone dictating what kind of submissive is OK and not for me.

why can't submissive personalities be so valued, so appreciated? why are we trash unless we learn how to wear masks and go about life living a complete lie? what the heck is so gosh darn terrible about being a doormat?





*apologies: no anger directed toward you Netz, just the issue*

None assumed.

But it's always been like this. I mean, I was reading the link on CM's thing about the penis mural. There's a whole bunch of stuff with a medieval priest and he says at some point "I made him show me, because although I believed, to believe too quickly one is assumed to be a fool." For the longest time, credulity, generosity, openness, have been turned against people.

 

[Homburg]

in the D/s lifestyle, to my initial amazement, it is even worse. how many times has it been stated and restated emphatically how NO decent Dominant would value submission that was freely given to others rather than being controlled and carefully reserved for them? how many times is the image of the strong, independent and capable woman, easily taking charge of kids and work, standing up for herself and doing for herself without problem...then going home to bend knee to her Dominant...preached as the image of the ideal submissive woman??

The ideal submissive? It is an entirely personal observation. I don't have an ideal. Hell, I have two, and neither one quite fits the ideal. Whatever.

Too many people read what other people write, hear what other people say, and think that there must be something wrong if that experience does not jive with their own. No one is *THE* Expert. No one person's ideal works for everyone. And no one can ever meet with the ideal.

Perfect is boring. Flaws are what give us character, as how you deal with the trials, challenges, and tribulations in your life as a whole reflects on how you will deal with the trials and such in a relationship. I am personally far more interested in what is "wrong" with a person, as they perceive it, and how they look to deal with that, than I am in what they see as "right" with them.

And most of the time, what is put forth as the "ideal" is a combination of what that person finds attractive, and what they feel will interest a possible partner. In other words, a PYL might want a doormat, but he knows he will aggravate the readership of the boards by admitting that. So he says he wants that "strong capable woman" that only submits to him. It is a way of flattering his possible readers as much as anything else.

I like strong. Strong is good, sure. I want a woman that can handle her own issues if I am not around, as I'm not going to be there 24/7. I work, I'm on the road. I want her to have an opinion, and competencies, skills, areas of interest, hobbies, etc. Why? Because those things make her more useful, and more interesting.

It really burns me when people judge themselves negatively just because they don't live up to some random yahoo's ideals. You need to worry about the opinions of only a handful of people in this world. That list includes those people you are in a relationship with, those with whom you have a healthy familial relationship, and anyone that signs your paycheck. The rest of the people on this planet aren't worth worrying about, and you have nothing to prove to them.

In your case, OSG, you sound like you fit your Daddy's expectation like hand in glove. What matters outside that? You've won.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

I guess I have come to view it this way. A sub choses to submit to a dom but a door mat just doesnt really feel they have a choice and get walked on.

Real dom's, I wouldnt think, would want a door mat.

 

[BiBunny]

I said I wasn't going to post again, but I can't resist pointing out the irony here. Many of the attitudes I see in this thread are the exact same ones that caused me to post it in the first place.

Master and Mistress love this particular doormat just fine, oddly enough. Funny that.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

I said I wasn't going to post again, but I can't resist pointing out the irony here. Many of the attitudes I see in this thread are the exact same ones that caused me to post it in the first place.

Master and Mistress love this particular doormat just fine, oddly enough. Funny that.

We all have "ideas" about BDSM lifestyles, often not based on facts. For years I didnt act on my 'sub curiosity' because "I wasnt one of those people".

Everyone sees things from different points of view and that is OK.

I dont see you as a weak person.( You, 00Syd and Satin desire are the main reason I started paying attention to this part of the forum.)

EDIT: I think you choose you fate instead of having it chosen for you.