Thoughts on Point of View

[NoJo]

Future Tense

Someobody in this thread spoke about BDSM and "I'm going to tie you up," as being future tense. I don't think that's right. I think that is just writing about what someone intends to do, not what they necessarily shall do.

In English a once common distinction between 'shall' and 'will' is important to remember, even if we don't commonly use those words so precisely any more.

Future tense is far from insane, it's the essense of dramatic irony, which can be very powerful.

A general point about this kind of thread:

I heartily agree with Wildsweetone here:

I really don't get it, about all these "pet hates" of styles or idioms, out of context from the story and effect the author wishes to achieve.
It's like saying
"I hate it when artists use green for the skin", or "I hate it when pop music uses strings", or even "I hate it when people use a lot of commas". It seems to miss the point, somehow.

 

[wildsweetone]

"I hate it when artists use green for the skin",

this reminded me of something i read a while back, Joe. it read,

we only believe the grass is coloured green because that's what we were originally told.

it's kind of freeing to think about that in a lateral manner for a while. i think i've read that we don't see in colour, the colour is the result of the sun reflecting against the object.

that tends to change the ground rules somewhat, don't you think? i wonder what would happen if we were encouraged to be different or to be free thinking, to write as our instincts lead us rather than as our peers expect us to... heck, it was just a thought.

*****

you will know your fantasy when you are touched tonight. you will be aware of all living breathing creatures as they surround you; your nose will smell their bodies; your heart will pick up a faster beat when you feel fingertips lightly caress your back; your eyes will be covered and you will not know what exactly it is that is touching you. however, you will be touched, have no doubt.

*****
a bumbling attempt at second person future tense. did i manage it?

 

[karmadog]

1st person

I think that KM is right. 1st person only seems easier.

If the narrator is intended to be a character distinct from the author, 1st person makes it more difficult for the author to stay in character. In a way, 1st person turns the author into an actor. Whereas in third person, the author is a director. The analogy can't be carried too far, but I think it helps to illustrate the point.

A cerrtain distance from a character helps the writer keep in mind that his creation does not necessarily act like him.

These comments are of course directed more at beginning writers than practice writers.

WSO, I think maybe future tense should be left to poetry.

As an aside, 3rd person objective is fairly common in detective stories, but it requires the author to have a very sharp eye for telling details of character and scene.

 

[jon.hayworth]

As someone who is Red / Green color blind - about 5% of males are to varying degrees WSO's mail was interesting.

I know that the grass (when it is very pale) is grey - that is what I see, however I also know that everyone else sees that shade of GREY as GREEN therefore unless I want to totally confuse everyone I also call that particular shade of grey GREEN.

However more germaine to our discussion is how my color vision reacts to Turquoise, depending on the light it goes in a range from emerald green to a French Blue - or how I see those colors. When I was a kid (before my color defficiency had been diagnosed) my father had a Turquoise car. For me it was impossible to find in a car park - because it was never the same color.

I feel the same confusion when I am reading a story and there are unanounced changes of tense or p.o.v. What I am trying to say is experiment by all means but please be careful that the experiment does not get to the point where the reader is totally lost.

I think changes are OK if they have a logic - it is when the changes are unintentional - sloppy writing that they will loose the reader.

jon

 

[TheEarl]

WSO: Technically the colour is caused by the light frequencies being absorbed. But that's just me being pedantic.

JonHayworth: Interesting story, my mum was a teacher and she had this child who was always messing about whenever the children started doing colouring in. He'd ignore my mum's instructions and paint the sky purple and the sea orange, etc. She always thought he was just being naughty until he put down the pen for a few minutes to do something else and came back and picked up a different colour and started colouring in the same thing. He didn't realise he was colourblind, he just saw shades of grey and assumed they were colours.

Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us?

I will bet none of you can place that quote.

Sorry offtopic again.

The Earl

 

[wildsweetone]

i knew somebody would help me out, thanks guys.

but did you get the drift i was trying to make? it's not a bad thing to do your own thing... or, to write your own way.

just because our writing doesn't always fit the same mold, doesn't mean it's wrong. heck it's really freeing to break a few rules now and then. i recommend it for a change.

 

[MaxSebastian]

Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us?

I will bet none of you can place that quote.

Sounds like Yoda (AKA Fozzy Bear) to me.

 

[TheEarl]

MaxSebastien, nice try, but in true Catchphrase tradition: "That's good, but it's not the one."

The Earl (who has just confused anyone who doesn't live in England)

 

[NoJo]

Earl

Earl, love the frock. I've just got to read your stories now, especially if there's any scullery skullduggery going on in any of them!

 

[Modessitt]

Thanks for the time.However, in a story-story, where "I" is not the author, first person is a bitch to write. Why? It's all in character development. Developing any character outside of "I" is a pain because everything those characters do and say is filtered through "I"s editorial commentary. Developing these characters independently--that is, in such a way that the reader sees these characters in ways that "I" does not--is hard to do. Most Lit writers never even bother. This is one of the reasons why I am not particularly fond of seeing the more "story" stories written in First Person. It's not done well and it's more like a trumped up Penthouse letter. Of course, these are neither the exception or the rule. There are a lot of good First Person stories out there that are good enough to enjoy, at least for me to.

Very true, KM. I have submitted two stories (at the time of this posting) both told in 1st person POV. HOWEVER, both were told from the female POV while I am male, which is challenging in its own way as I risk the Wrath of Woman if I don't get it right or make it too far-fetched.

Character development for other than the narrator is difficult, but is rarely that important unless you are writing something of length. Otherwise, perceived characteristics by the narrator are sufficient in short stories, especially erotic ones. If it is important to you to develop a character outside the narrator, then it is easiest done through dialogue, as it gives a basis to the read for insight into the character, as we all know someone who would respond like that and helps us establish a "personality" for that character.

My choice of POV depends on the story I want to tell. Elsewhere here, a comment was made that 3rd person POV is like "being the director", to which I agree. The problem with that is, if I am showing you a scene with several characters, then it should be written like you were watching a movie. The problem is that emotional turmoil and inner thoughts should then only be shown through actions and facial expressions, perhaps dialogue as well. Before I bring down the Other Posters on me, it's true "TP Omnicient" could take care of that, but it becomes too confusing flying around in other people's heads throughout the story.

First thing I do when writing a story is decide first what the story is going to be about, then how I want it to be presented. If it is about a wife who is experiencing something out-of-the-ordinary, then it is told from her POV. If her husband had arranged it more for his benefit than hers, then it would be told from his. Basically, where I start the story determines who tells it. If it starts with her, she tells it. If it starts with him, he tells it.

I am presently working through the first stages of a Romance story between two characters (male and female) based in an entirely different culture and upbringing than my own. (Never thought I'd be doing research just to write an erotic story, but know it'll be torn apart if it's not accurate.) My first tendency is to write it in male 1st person POV (the male POV is set in stone) mainly because it will deal with inexperience, losing virginity (for both), and nervousness. It seems 1st person POV would be best to show these feelings, but would like to hear what y'all think about it first, especially since I have more research to finish before I can start writing.

By the way, if you want to read my other stories to comment on my use of female POV, look for "Intervention" in the Loving Wives section, and "The Spice of Life", in the queue and soon to be in New and Loving Wives as well.

 

[TheEarl]

Scullery skullduggery? Hmm that gives me an idea. Personally I wouldn't really recommend my stories (apart from maybe Seducing Dawn 2). I'm much better at being opinionated about writing than actually writing, so I'd wait until the next one, which is slightly better, comes out.

The Earl

 

[mlyn]

I am so confused now... I don't know what I'm writing in....

I know that I don't like to read first person stories. Sometimes I get my tenses screwed up. And I like telling what the characters are thinking, or why they are doing what they did.

And someone write, can't remember who, about doing research... I have been doing more and more research the more I write. For example, I have 20 stories that I have started (anywhere from 2 pages to 53 pages), and two of them have required a lot of research. I have written a story, based on the show Survivor, hopefully with a twist, and had to do research on the archipelagos in the south seas. But the most fun I've had, and I never would have associated the word fun with research, is a story that is based on an around the world cruise... Hopefully it won't be like a post I read in erotic cliches, and be like "My Slut Wife, chap 74" !!!!!!!!!!!

But I'm guessing my stories are third person omniscient limited (if that is the jumping from one characters head to another.)

Good luck to all

mlyn

 

[Omni]

I must be greedy because I really love to know what both the main sexual characters in a story are "thinking" and feeling. Of course that goes to the point that my personal enjoyment is reading one man, one woman type stories, which alot of erotica is not.
I write in 3rd person omnicesent, limited to only the two main characters though.

Such a wide variety and so many choices...........Of readers out there!



Omni

 

[Whispersecret]

3rd person omniscient is too distant for me. I prefer 3rd person limited, where I can delve into people's brains more deeply. Perverse, eh?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Omni,

I agree with WhisperSecret (always a safe move) about the downside of 3rd person omni and how 3rd person limited is more imtimate and helps get the reader closer to the protags thinking.

For what it's worth, romance writers often switch between those two. 3rd person limited is fairly standard in that genre, but when it's bodice ripping time and the action starts getting hot and steamy, they often switch in the midst of all that bosom heaving and lip crushing to 3rd person omni and give the thoughts and emotions of both characters. (we're talking main-stream romance.) Once the tides of passion have finally ebbed, the writer will switch back to limited.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Street0]

<i>I know that the grass (when it is very pale) is grey - that is what I see, however I also know that everyone else sees that shade of GREY as GREEN therefore unless I want to totally confuse everyone I also call that particular shade of grey GREEN.</i>

Is that why your flag is on a green background?

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

I am currently finishing a story that uses third person, but I am having great difficulties keeping each scene within a limited POV. The story is about how others are effected by witnessing the sexuality of someone they know.

So, I have written about three scenes where the POV switches from the person involved in the sex to the person watching the sex. In two of these scenes, the person watching has joined in.

But paragraph to paragraph, I am switching from one character's POV to another.

Problems?













I am being very careful to mention the character's name near the beginning of each paragraph, so as not to confuse.


- Judo

This post will probably come out looking like shit, but I don't have any space after the quotation. There are many kinds of points of view -- the three main ones, 1st, 3rd limited, 3rd omniscient, were identified by teachers of literature. If you are writing, you have choices within these, and what is important is that you bring your reader along with you effortlessly.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

Sorry, but I got lost in that last contribution to this
thread.

POV: 1st; but there is also what is often called the
"Watson" point of view. It is 1st-person, but the teller
is not the protagonist.
3rd: Limited means that you only tell the thoughts of one
character. But why do you need to tell the thoughts of any
character? (OK, it helps a whole lot in erotica, but it
ain't necessary.)
3rd Omniscient means that the author has access to the thoughts of
any character. The word "omniscient" can lead many people
astray. But there is the POV I call "3rd-switched" the
author deals with the thoughts of one character at a time,
but occasionally switches between the characters. (This
looks a LOT like omniscient, but it needs to be done
in a slightly different fashion.
And, once you have decided which character's thoughts you
know, you still have to decide whether you know objective
facts he doesn't or he doesn't know yet. ("Meanwhile, back at the ranch..." "Had I but known....")