To keep the review thread clean...

[Alexis Haines]

Thank you

Thank you for including "I Would Not" in your review. Frankly, I know next to nothing about poetry and I'm astonished it caught anyone's eye! I know there is beat, meter, rhyme, structure... I don't know what consitutes good or bad in any of these. I know heart, and that is all; bless yours, and thank you, again.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

MET, Thankyou for reading and reviewing each week and this week, thanks for the mention. I'm happy to be in today's company.

Taste in poetry, like taste in music or food, is a personal thing. I see nothing wrong with expressing the personal.

You are very welcome,

Du, JC and Alexis too

I would like to take a moment and thank Rybka
for the wonderful comment on PORTAL TO THE VIXEN PLANET
Du Lac for her wonderful insight and wisdom and reviews, and Jennifer C for her mention of my ZMP as well. AND To all the reviewers that take the time to review the new poem list.

AND to those who left feedback and comments through out this very busy week. Been busier than a chicken trying to cross the highway. I did take the advice of one feedback (~_*) <wicked grin> and made it a short story <grin>

I realize my country music may rub the classical music listeners like sand paper, but my paper back novels are enjoyed by many. They may not be the New York Times top best seller, but if they bring a grin, or entertain, then I am happy.

Thanks to all who share, comments and poetry

 

[ruminator]

I can't see your eyes
behind that veil of words
coming fast and furious
laced with spit
I turn away but you
grab my sleeve "- and - and - "
I just want a piece
of what you have
peace is all I want
in this loud community
confrontational we could
be friends we could be allies
but you hide
behind words that
simply deaden the noise
by fogging the truth
I can only close the door
and lean a while
knowing your out there
waiting
for the next round

I've been both halves of this, at different times. I wouldn't say I was joined with someone like that as much as I was fused with them for a while.

...great insight in your words, tess.

 

[bluerains]

I really like this whole poem...but,,,

make myself at home
in the warmth of your throat
internalize while outing
discomfort melts into nothing
only relief is left
as you feed on me
my need
you meet
complete and complacent
my will alligned with
the god of my
misunderstanding
the fact understated
this thing,
underrated
belief and reality
positively charged
this is my body
remember me by doing this
as if i'd give you time
to forget
swallow hard and eat my
bad attitude
free flowing essence
that becomes something else
as our exchange is made
i'll nourish your bad dog baby
until you become me.

there is just something about the word nourish and the phrase bad dog baby...that do not mingle...well ...I think you make it awesome..with that little working..imhooc...

 

[Du Lac]

You are very welcome,

Du, JC and Alexis too

I would like to take a moment and thank Rybka
for the wonderful comment on PORTAL TO THE VIXEN PLANET
Du Lac for her wonderful insight and wisdom and reviews, and Jennifer C for her mention of my ZMP as well. AND To all the reviewers that take the time to review the new poem list.

AND to those who left feedback and comments through out this very busy week. Been busier than a chicken trying to cross the highway. I did take the advice of one feedback (~_*) <wicked grin> and made it a short story <grin>

I realize my country music may rub the classical music listeners like sand paper, but my paper back novels are enjoyed by many. They may not be the New York Times top best seller, but if they bring a grin, or entertain, then I am happy.

Thanks to all who share, comments and poetry

always a pleasure dear friend

 

[Guest]

I've been both halves of this, at different times. I wouldn't say I was joined with someone like that as much as I was fused with them for a while.

...great insight in your words, tess.

Thanks, rumi. Life's too short to let it get to us, no? Hope you survived the fracture, well you must have - you're here.

 

[twelveoone]

no rose for me??
homophobic


you should post them
that's really my point
we should post everything
good or bad
hell i go back and read the stuff I wrote when I first came here and think
" jesus this sucks"
but it's on record and I can chart the progress
I can also go back and fuck with it and try again.
I never expect anyones stuff to always be amazing..I look at is as how they are developing, styles change, etc etc
and sometimes, as champ said, you get stuck..that's ok too.
Perfect example is Eve's " southern" stuff
Some people didn't like it because it wasn't " Eve"..i think it's some of the best stuff she's ever done
therein lies the rub
or
something


yeah, sox, we're still ahead of the yankees for the time being so I'll gloat

and thanks 12, always, for your comments and opinion even if we disagree

no, no rose for you
I won't post anything that I think is bad, and I got alot of them. I post them if I don't know. That is the reason I post them. Tath, you're preaching to the wrong guy, I like to see reach, experimentation.

Angeline, here is the quote, everybody pay attention.
..."this is well below your standard, and your standard is one of the highest around here..."

Not my standard, not the average standard, (and this was way better than average) her standard.

I grade and comment according to what I perceive your standard is, is anybody arguing that my perception of Champ in general is off? No, we pretty much agree on that.

And Angeline if you have been paying attention, I do not hold up my critique as the only 'valid" way, it is what I see, I admit I am wrong if showed I am wrong, and if Champ wants, I would be willing to do a line by line. But I think, if she looks herself, she will see she has written a lot better, many times.

And at least, I put my name on it with the score, a "4" , and will take the time to defend it.

Now that I explained, that I am looking at is what I perceive is your standard (again)

An open challenge: ANYONE that has felt they have been wronged by a score or a comment left over at the poetry section, convince me otherwise, (and I'm an easy sell) and I will send a PM to the owners of this place and ask that vote and comment be removed, and I will replace it with a higher vote and a apology. How is that, fair enough?
Defend what you write.

I don't think anyone ever made that statement before.

 

[Du Lac]

no, no rose for you
I won't post anything that I think is bad, and I got alot of them. I post them if I don't know. That is the reason I post them. Tath, you're preaching to the wrong guy, I like to see reach, experimentation.

Angeline, here is the quote, everybody pay attention.
..."this is well below your standard, and your standard is one of the highest around here..."

Not my standard, not the average standard, (and this was way better than average) her standard.

I grade and comment according to what I perceive your standard is, is anybody arguing that my perception of Champ in general is off? No, we pretty much agree on that.

And Angeline if you have been paying attention, I do not hold up my critique as the only 'valid" way, it is what I see, I admit I am wrong if showed I am wrong, and if Champ wants, I would be willing to do a line by line. But I think, if she looks herself, she will see she has written a lot better, many times.

And at least, I put my name on it with the score, a "4" , and will take the time to defend it.

Now that I explained, that I am looking at is what I perceive is your standard (again)

An open challenge: ANYONE that has felt they have been wronged by a score or a comment left over at the poetry section, convince me otherwise, (and I'm an easy sell) and I will send a PM to the owners of this place and ask that vote and comment be removed, and I will replace it with a higher vote and a apology. How is that, fair enough?
Defend what you write.

I don't think anyone ever made that statement before.

1201
so heated up... you are getting me hot now~ lol... I will say that I have always valued your thoughts on my poetry. Your eyes show me what my intimate connections with the work will not.... I have always found you to be fair and expressing YOUR thoughts not saying that they are The Be All and end of poetry. I find it refreshing to see from anothers eyes and mind to where my poetry is leading. So dear one.... just keep doing what you are doing. It helps all of us learn.

du lac

 

[Angeline]

no, no rose for you
I won't post anything that I think is bad, and I got alot of them. I post them if I don't know. That is the reason I post them. Tath, you're preaching to the wrong guy, I like to see reach, experimentation.

Angeline, here is the quote, everybody pay attention.
..."this is well below your standard, and your standard is one of the highest around here..."

Not my standard, not the average standard, (and this was way better than average) her standard.

I grade and comment according to what I perceive your standard is, is anybody arguing that my perception of Champ in general is off? No, we pretty much agree on that.

And Angeline if you have been paying attention, I do not hold up my critique as the only 'valid" way, it is what I see, I admit I am wrong if showed I am wrong, and if Champ wants, I would be willing to do a line by line. But I think, if she looks herself, she will see she has written a lot better, many times.

And at least, I put my name on it with the score, a "4" , and will take the time to defend it.

Now that I explained, that I am looking at is what I perceive is your standard (again)

An open challenge: ANYONE that has felt they have been wronged by a score or a comment left over at the poetry section, convince me otherwise, (and I'm an easy sell) and I will send a PM to the owners of this place and ask that vote and comment be removed, and I will replace it with a higher vote and a apology. How is that, fair enough?
Defend what you write.

I don't think anyone ever made that statement before.

1201, my comment wasn't so much directed toward that specific statement you made--I was aware you said "your standard," which is after all a judgment on your part of what the standard is for that writer. But no, I was reacting more to the tenor of criticism I have observed on the boards, not you but lots of crit I see here, which seems to suggest that there is one right way to go about writing a poem and that one way reflects the styles of one or two writers here. That makes no sense to me--how does one assess Emily Dickinson, TS Eliot, ee cummings, and Bill Knott with the same criteria? Is one better than the other? According to what? Form or not? One kind of imagery, one way of using metaphor or another?

The other comment wasn't meant to be an attack but food for thought based on my experience as an editor.

 

[WickedEve]

I've been trying to catch up on this champ/cliché thing. I just read the poem and there are some lovely lines in it. I'm not crazy about softest skin, though. Wanton sighs line is fine and that's because of the hundred hills phrase that follows it. But that's just my personal O.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

no, no rose for you
I won't post anything that I think is bad, and I got alot of them. I post them if I don't know. That is the reason I post them. Tath, you're preaching to the wrong guy, I like to see reach, experimentation.

Angeline, here is the quote, everybody pay attention.
..."this is well below your standard, and your standard is one of the highest around here..."

Not my standard, not the average standard, (and this was way better than average) her standard.

I grade and comment according to what I perceive your standard is, is anybody arguing that my perception of Champ in general is off? No, we pretty much agree on that.

And Angeline if you have been paying attention, I do not hold up my critique as the only 'valid" way, it is what I see, I admit I am wrong if showed I am wrong, and if Champ wants, I would be willing to do a line by line. But I think, if she looks herself, she will see she has written a lot better, many times.

And at least, I put my name on it with the score, a "4" , and will take the time to defend it.

Now that I explained, that I am looking at is what I perceive is your standard (again)

An open challenge: ANYONE that has felt they have been wronged by a score or a comment left over at the poetry section, convince me otherwise, (and I'm an easy sell) and I will send a PM to the owners of this place and ask that vote and comment be removed, and I will replace it with a higher vote and a apology. How is that, fair enough?
Defend what you write.

I don't think anyone ever made that statement before.

you mean chimp, or champ... ?>>>who? (0_0)

 

[My Erotic Tale]

I found it~
a critical clash

1201 sees clichés every where

i think it's some palsy he suffers from


I didn't " see" any cliches..i thought some of the wording was great
~Fingerpainting I-love-you
in the slippery guache of my lust;
a dream spending leaving
pearlescent pools on my thighs.~

nice wording

I think perhaps the..feelings? scenario? is what he meant by cliché.
A woman lying in bed dreamily touching herself and thinking of a lover.

~shrug~
It's done, people write about it, like they write about sex and pain and love
it's just that you see one or two of this particular subject here every day
maybe 12 is just tired of all these women lying around having orgasms when theres laundry to be done..


or perhaps I'm out on a limb there...

in any case I enjoyed the wording

 

[twelveoone]

1201, my comment wasn't so much directed toward that specific statement you made--I was aware you said "your standard," which is after all a judgment on your part of what the standard is for that writer. But no, I was reacting more to the tenor of criticism I have observed on the boards, not you but lots of crit I see here, which seems to suggest that there is one right way to go about writing a poem and that one way reflects the styles of one or two writers here. That makes no sense to me--how does one assess Emily Dickinson, TS Eliot, ee cummings, and Bill Knott with the same criteria? Is one better than the other? According to what? Form or not? One kind of imagery, one way of using metaphor or another?

The other comment wasn't meant to be an attack but food for thought based on my experience as an editor.

"Criticism is not a circumscription or a set of prohibitions. It provides fixed points of departure. It may startle a dull reader into alertness. That little of it which is good is mostly in stray phrases; or if it be an older artist helping a younger it is in great measure but rules of thumb, cautions gained by experience." - Ezra Pound

I do not presume to offer the second part, especially in champagne's case, but I live by the first.

Unless one is extremely prejudiced, despite the type one can draw gradients from bad to good, a "4" on my part, most often is a wake up, that I see someone has done better, much better. a "3" well you, seriously pissed me off somehow and it was a bad write. I don't do that often, but I'm human.

And if people do not see what I see, so be it, I am always ready to be shown otherwise.

 

[twelveoone]

and if someone enjoys something that I found flawed, good for them.

 

[twelveoone]

I've been trying to catch up on this champ/cliché thing. I just read the poem and there are some lovely lines in it. I'm not crazy about softest skin, though. Wanton sighs line is fine and that's because of the hundred hills phrase that follows it. But that's just my personal O.

and just what do you mean by
your personal O.?

 

[Angeline]

"Criticism is not a circumscription or a set of prohibitions. It provides fixed points of departure. It may startle a dull reader into alertness. That little of it which is good is mostly in stray phrases; or if it be an older artist helping a younger it is in great measure but rules of thumb, cautions gained by experience." - Ezra Pound

I do not presume to offer the second part, especially in champagne's case, but I live by the first.

Unless one is extremely prejudiced, despite the type one can draw gradients from bad to good, a "4" on my part, most often is a wake up, that I see someone has done better, much better. a "3" well you, seriously pissed me off somehow and it was a bad write. I don't do that often, but I'm human.

And if people do not see what I see, so be it, I am always ready to be shown otherwise.

With all due respect to Ezra Pound, it depends on the criticism and on the writer. I don't see how a number that represents no objective rubric can offer anything other than a subjective impression that from voter to voter can differ wildly. That may provide some point of departure, but fixed how? Fixed on what criterion? Pound's? Yours? Mine?

 

[Jennifer C]

You are very welcome,

Du, JC and Alexis too

I would like to take a moment and thank Rybka
for the wonderful comment on PORTAL TO THE VIXEN PLANET
Du Lac for her wonderful insight and wisdom and reviews, and Jennifer C for her mention of my ZMP as well. AND To all the reviewers that take the time to review the new poem list.

AND to those who left feedback and comments through out this very busy week. Been busier than a chicken trying to cross the highway. I did take the advice of one feedback (~_*) <wicked grin> and made it a short story <grin>

I realize my country music may rub the classical music listeners like sand paper, but my paper back novels are enjoyed by many. They may not be the New York Times top best seller, but if they bring a grin, or entertain, then I am happy.

Thanks to all who share, comments and poetry

As du said ~ it's a pleasure dear friend...

 

[twelveoone]

With all due respect to Ezra Pound, it depends on the criticism and on the writer. I don't see how a number that represents no objective rubric can offer anything other than a subjective impression that from voter to voter can differ wildly. That may provide some point of departure, but fixed how? Fixed on what criterion? Pound's? Yours? Mine?

Fixed by what is written, in this case I wrote it, it was measured against the memory of what that person has written has written before. As you can see it did provide a departure. I saw good possibilities that where never followed through, in one case destroyed in my reading of it.
Of course it is subjective, aren't all comments? With all due respect to you, aren't all of yours? Something affects you, you look for the reason why.

As an illustration, take this:
"draw Cupid's
arrow pointing upward
at the target of g-spot,
clit and womb."
with Cupid's arrow, she trends in tired waters
Oh, the target is the g-spot, Oh, well now that is funny, she takes it away from being a mere cliche, this is a damn good line.
clit - here it starts to sink already
and womb - excuse me, I got it
For me, it rose and quickly withered. The turning of this clichéd image, was quickly turned around again by addition of two words. True, as a grammarian, you can argue it was a set.

They are all subjective impressions that from voter to voter can differ wildly, aren't they? If by implication this statement is meant to imply mine is invalid because it is subjective, are you telling me your's is not? If so, why not? Should we not leave comments, or should it be reserved to those that pass some kind of test?

Are you implying that this opinion, which does not match the consensus opinion is wrong and I should not hold it or express it because it does not match? What are you trying to say here? What is the purpose of this statement?

I remind every one here, I did not bring this up, I left a comment, a provocative one, maybe, but with a high compliment attached.
I left it with a "name".

I stand by what I said, consensus be damned, and my offers are still open.

 

[Angeline]

Fixed by what is written, in this case I wrote it, it was measured against the memory of what that person has written has written before. As you can see it did provide a departure. I saw good possibilities that where never followed through, in one case destroyed in my reading of it.
Of course it is subjective, aren't all comments? With all due respect to you, aren't all of yours? Something affects you, you look for the reason why.

As an illustration, take this:
"draw Cupid's
arrow pointing upward
at the target of g-spot,
clit and womb."
with Cupid's arrow, she trends in tired waters
Oh, the target is the g-spot, Oh, well now that is funny, she takes it away from being a mere cliche, this is a damn good line.
clit - here it starts to sink already
and womb - excuse me, I got it
For me, it rose and quickly withered. The turning of this clichéd image, was quickly turned around again by addition of two words. True, as a grammarian, you can argue it was a set.

They are all subjective impressions that from voter to voter can differ wildly, aren't they? If by implication this statement is meant to imply mine is invalid because it is subjective, are you telling me your's is not? If so, why not? Should we not leave comments, or should it be reserved to those that pass some kind of test?

Are you implying that this opinion, which does not match the consensus opinion is wrong and I should not hold it or express it because it does not match? What are you trying to say here? What is the purpose of this statement?

I remind every one here, I did not bring this up, I left a comment, a provocative one, maybe, but with a high compliment attached.
I left it with a "name".

I stand by what I said, consensus be damned, and my offers are still open.

I'm not implying that anyone's comments are invalid. I'm saying that the process is not at all objective where votes are concerned because it is not tied to a common understanding of what the "score points" mean. The advantage of receiving a lot of high scores is that you may earn a slot on the top list. And that is an advantage only if you care whether a lot of people here read your poems. I don't. I care about comments--whether someone says something that helps me improve the poem. The few people who do that read my stuff whether it's on the top list or not.

And, true, sometimes that comment may be "This is a cliche." Fine, but a better comment might be "Why did you say this?" because it is possilbe that you, the reader, simply didn't understand what the writer was trying to do. Maybe your lack of understanding means the poem should be edited, maybe not. It's just one comment. Maybe questions that probe would lead to a learning experience for the reader as well as the writer. I'm sure this is how you intended your feedback to be taken (though you didn't word it that way), but if that is the intent of some reviewers here--as opposed to demonstrating how much they know about poetry--then they need to think about the tone of their feedback as well as their word choice. Smugness and thinly veiled condescension come across in a lot of what I read, and this probably is the reason some new writers end up leaving.

And that's not a personal criticism of you, it's just my opinion. Frankly, if someone wants to engage me in a "defense" of my word choice that signals me to the fact that I may need to read and study more so I can understand what I need to do to make the poem communicate better, if indeed I do. I also need to write more because writing, daily poem writing, is for me a much better way to improve. Comments are fine up to a point, but I'd rather write poetry than argue about why I didn't use a comma in line x or--gasp--used "heart" or "rainbow" in some line. You can quote Ezra; I'll go with Thelonius Monk who said "there are no bad notes, it's just how you play them."

I'm gonna write a poem now.

 

[twelveoone]

And, true, sometimes that comment may be "This is a cliche." Fine, but a better comment might be "Why did you say this?" because it is possilbe that you, the reader, simply didn't understand what the writer was trying to do....Smugness and thinly veiled condescension come across in a lot of what I read, and this probably is the reason some new writers end up leaving.

I'll go with Thelonius Monk who said "there are no bad notes, it's just how you play them."

I'm gonna write a poem now.

Champ, if I came across as smug and condensending, please accept my humble apology. I have a tendency to be quite direct with people that I respect as writers. You are a well established excellent writer.

And that's funny, Angeline, that is what I was getting from your post "Smugness and thinly veiled condescension" hence my "Why did you say this?"
I guess as a reader, I simply didn't understand what you were trying to do with your post, or perhaps I just heard a few notes that sounded off.

 

[WickedEve]

and just what do you mean by
your personal O.?

Sometimes, I have a Big O-pinion. And I enjoy it very much.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Sometimes, I have a Big O-pinion. And I enjoy it very much.

funny thing about them O...pinions
they can become a ficious circle
or a circle friends defending an O

I think 1201's "O" was as sweet as cheerios but thats my O
I did not see a clich'e but then I don't read to dechipher and disect <grin>
I thought Lust's Canvas was an icon of a poem...
when asked, 1201 explained his stance on his comment, very hOnOrable

just my O

 

[bluerains]

warm thanks Du~

for such as awesome critique..your remarks left a sigh in my space...as all the other comments you made as well..you brighten a day...thanks du...I left this link for you as well ....tells why I am so into blue....obsessed would be a better word..I think I have spent years with the annanaki/anninaki....planet x planet niburu...and such...lol/blue

http://www.crystalinks.com/sirius.html

 

[Angeline]

Champ, if I came across as smug and condensending, please accept my humble apology. I have a tendency to be quite direct with people that I respect as writers. You are a well established excellent writer.

And that's funny, Angeline, that is what I was getting from your post "Smugness and thinly veiled condescension" hence my "Why did you say this?"
I guess as a reader, I simply didn't understand what you were trying to do with your post, or perhaps I just heard a few notes that sounded off.

I don't think I condescend to anyone when I offer feedback--that's not my style--nor was it my intention to suggest that you are or were to Champagne. I've been an editor for 20 years and have worked with many many authors. I know there are ways to elicit understanding and move a piece of writing forward. I also know there are people who call themselves reviewers who have other agendas that do not help the writer. I've seen that in my personal experience as an editor and I see it here--more frequently of late.

If you assume that when I state my opinion that I am directing it at you personally, you are misreading my intent. Am I happy about the endless angst about votes and comments that I see here? No, I'm not because I don't see how it helps anyone become a better writer. It doesn't so much effect me personally because I just go off and do my poetry thing regardless. But do I think all this is your fault? Of course not lol. I just think we'd all do better to write poems and, when we do offer feedback, to be neutral and consider how the words we choose are perceived. I saw a comment just yesterday, for example, where the reviewer suggested that the poet had chosen a particular wording "on a whim." What the hell does that mean and what does it have to do with improving a piece of writing?

But don't mind me. I've been spouting this opinion here since 2002 and few agreed with me then, either.

 

[Guest]

Inspired By Tess

"field fuck"

What a lovely poem, d.h. - I'm thrilled to have inspired it. Thank you for the credit.



What did she say? Hmmm?