jthserra
Thousand Cranes
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 678
In attempt to beat a dead horse to death (if you pardon the cliche)
I simply have to ask how a review such as:
"My Erotic Tale took an interesting step with his tribute to the blind samurai in his Zatoichi Monogatari (Blind fury). I found myself confused as it seemed the best lines in the poem were not original... or were they? He put a number of lines in quotes, one of these "A falling leaf does not hate the wind." was borrowed, but without a source listed. Another line: "Perhaps a falling leaf does hate the wind." seemed an original twist to the other saying, leaving me wondering what lines were quoted and which were original lines in quotes. While the poem had some punctuation things here and there, I truely feel this poem needs some more annotation regarding the quotes. The poem is a nice tribute, but you've got to cite your sources."
Get twisted into being called nitpicking and a personal attack?
When the question of citing sources was merely laughed off as my confusion, I did frame the question a bit more bluntly:
" Once again I guess I was too subtle in my response. I guess I need to be more blunt. The Zatoichi poem was not confusing, I simply was left wondering, not being familiar with the entire library of Zatoichi movies (I guess I could have consulted my son). What confused me was the question as to whether the quotes came from another source or if they were the poet's. Of course reading the lines I was fairly certain the lines were borrowed, but without the source being cited, I then had to wonder: Did the poet truely mean to plagarize a work he was supposedly honoring or did he omit the notations simply out of ignorance?
Zatoichi fans may recognize the lines, but beyond a few well known quotes from the bible... a writer simply must cite the sources of borrowed material. It is simply good manners and is the right thing to do. Even with the mention of the movies in the poem's afterward, you never mentioned the source of the quotes.
If you truly intended the poem as an homage, I think the quotes should be properly cited... that means editing the poem, anything else is simply wrong. As far as the confusion, Art, re-read my review... you will see the confusion was in the misuse of the borrowed lines.
In the most recent installment of the Zatoichi movies, the hero wasn't really blind, he simply kept his eyes closed. At the end of the movie he did open them. Perhaps there is a message here... I will watch for your edit of the poem Art."
Personal attacks? Slander? Even as the discussion progressed the attacks and slander remained decidely on sided (hmmm, I like that rhyme there).
Why is this important enough to go on and on? What is important here is that in the course of dialogue over a poetry review, a polite review was twisted into a personal attack on the poet, with the reviewer being called a pompous slanderer.
I simply have to ask, where is the outrage? I ask anyone to read the exchange and tell me who made the exchange personal, who made this something more than a simple, generally favorable review of a poem.
It is unfortunate that something I always enjoyed about the poetry forum "The New Poems Review" can be sullied so harshly that anything less than a shout for joy about a poem is considered a personal attack on the poet. It is unfortunate that anything less than telling a poet they have written the best poem ever is deemed as not providing encouragement. It is unfortunate that taking the time and energy to delve deeply into a poem, in an effort to understand not only the poets motiviation, but their use of tools to express themselves and then offering insight or suggestion is considered nitpicking.
If I were smart, I would withdraw from the reviews rather than battle what seems to be the prevailing sentiment on poetry reviews. The thing is, I refuse to believe this is the prevailing sentiment and besides I have been known to do some dumb things in my life, this would just be another. So come next Wednesday I plan to continue writing new poetry reviews.
With respect to citing sources, I do believe it is something more than the state of health of jthserra's anal tract. Distinguished writers (Stephen Ambrose, etc) have had their careers and reputations tarnished or destroyed over documentation issues considerably more trifiling than not citing the quotes you use.
As for slander and personal attacks... I ask everyone to read the exchange between My Erotic Tale and I and decide for yourselves where that originated.
jim : )
I simply have to ask how a review such as:
"My Erotic Tale took an interesting step with his tribute to the blind samurai in his Zatoichi Monogatari (Blind fury). I found myself confused as it seemed the best lines in the poem were not original... or were they? He put a number of lines in quotes, one of these "A falling leaf does not hate the wind." was borrowed, but without a source listed. Another line: "Perhaps a falling leaf does hate the wind." seemed an original twist to the other saying, leaving me wondering what lines were quoted and which were original lines in quotes. While the poem had some punctuation things here and there, I truely feel this poem needs some more annotation regarding the quotes. The poem is a nice tribute, but you've got to cite your sources."
Get twisted into being called nitpicking and a personal attack?
When the question of citing sources was merely laughed off as my confusion, I did frame the question a bit more bluntly:
" Once again I guess I was too subtle in my response. I guess I need to be more blunt. The Zatoichi poem was not confusing, I simply was left wondering, not being familiar with the entire library of Zatoichi movies (I guess I could have consulted my son). What confused me was the question as to whether the quotes came from another source or if they were the poet's. Of course reading the lines I was fairly certain the lines were borrowed, but without the source being cited, I then had to wonder: Did the poet truely mean to plagarize a work he was supposedly honoring or did he omit the notations simply out of ignorance?
Zatoichi fans may recognize the lines, but beyond a few well known quotes from the bible... a writer simply must cite the sources of borrowed material. It is simply good manners and is the right thing to do. Even with the mention of the movies in the poem's afterward, you never mentioned the source of the quotes.
If you truly intended the poem as an homage, I think the quotes should be properly cited... that means editing the poem, anything else is simply wrong. As far as the confusion, Art, re-read my review... you will see the confusion was in the misuse of the borrowed lines.
In the most recent installment of the Zatoichi movies, the hero wasn't really blind, he simply kept his eyes closed. At the end of the movie he did open them. Perhaps there is a message here... I will watch for your edit of the poem Art."
Personal attacks? Slander? Even as the discussion progressed the attacks and slander remained decidely on sided (hmmm, I like that rhyme there).
Why is this important enough to go on and on? What is important here is that in the course of dialogue over a poetry review, a polite review was twisted into a personal attack on the poet, with the reviewer being called a pompous slanderer.
I simply have to ask, where is the outrage? I ask anyone to read the exchange and tell me who made the exchange personal, who made this something more than a simple, generally favorable review of a poem.
It is unfortunate that something I always enjoyed about the poetry forum "The New Poems Review" can be sullied so harshly that anything less than a shout for joy about a poem is considered a personal attack on the poet. It is unfortunate that anything less than telling a poet they have written the best poem ever is deemed as not providing encouragement. It is unfortunate that taking the time and energy to delve deeply into a poem, in an effort to understand not only the poets motiviation, but their use of tools to express themselves and then offering insight or suggestion is considered nitpicking.
If I were smart, I would withdraw from the reviews rather than battle what seems to be the prevailing sentiment on poetry reviews. The thing is, I refuse to believe this is the prevailing sentiment and besides I have been known to do some dumb things in my life, this would just be another. So come next Wednesday I plan to continue writing new poetry reviews.
With respect to citing sources, I do believe it is something more than the state of health of jthserra's anal tract. Distinguished writers (Stephen Ambrose, etc) have had their careers and reputations tarnished or destroyed over documentation issues considerably more trifiling than not citing the quotes you use.
As for slander and personal attacks... I ask everyone to read the exchange between My Erotic Tale and I and decide for yourselves where that originated.
jim : )
