"To keep the review thread clean..."

[UnderYourSpell]

three anons JACKPOT wins prize.

3? wow! goes to look

 

[twelveoone]

I want to remark on simply_me’s commentary on the grammar and punctuation of the poem Come to Me and in so doing explore a little of what poetry means to me. This is a very personal exploration of how my mind is working as I read and reread the poem and is not to suggest that some other way is not equally as valid.

The corrected version of the poem is as valid as UnderYourSpell's original submission—it is neither better nor worse; only different. My opinion relies on that theory of poetry which holds that a poem's sense of the words acts mainly upon the intellect of the listener, while the rhythm and sounds (alliteration, assonance, consonantal qualities, etc.) act on the physical body. All of the above, along with things like connotation will affect the emotions of the reader.

Now while I identify three parts of our being that perceives the poem, I am not suggesting that the three are distinct nor that they are equal in perceiving the totality of a poem. For me there is a kind of dance between the three wherein distinctions blur or combine to create different results depending on my mood, state of health, level of emotional security, whatever.

When grammar and punctuation rules are broken, it will sometimes open up a new level of understanding that strict adherence to grammar would not allow. In the first three lines of the poem (the first full sentence)

In the night she thought she heard him,
a drawn out cry, the voice echoed
in her head called her name.

the first line is relatively diffused, slow and longer than the others with “drawn out” pause created by the line-break as well as the comma, and echoed by the next three words that follow only to be interrupted by the more sharply sounding “cry” which is softened by the comma-occasioned pause. Lulled by what preceded “cry” our focus suddenly perks up expectantly waiting for something new that has been heralded by the subtle shift in rhythm. Then, following the soft flow of “the voice” we have the double whammy of the two hard consonantal sounds in “echoed;” the first exploding across our tongue from the back of the mouth while the second lands more softly with tongue on the teeth at the front of the mouth so that it flows easily into the line-break pause.

All of this sets us up for the powerful beauty of the third line, achieved by the omission of the comma that normally belongs there. By omitting the comma, one is able to experience the two phrases “in her head” and ”called her name” as simultaneous (which they actually are) than as sequential events which the sequential flow of phrases incorrectly suggests. Thus the line is faster in contrast with the slowness of what has gone before and this change, along with the other changes I referred to earlier, begins to excite a perception in my being of the energy the poet has invested in what she is describing as well as the turmoil and confusion of unrequited longings buried deep in her subconscious, longings which travel through her dreams into her consciousness.

Without the comma the two phrases co-mingle in the speed of the line

There is also the tension between the meaning of the aforementioned two phrases of the third line and the sense of her “head called her name” so that there is ambiguity in the line that echoes the confusion over whether the cry is real or imagined.

Thus in trying to make sense of the piece I begin to feel tickled, excited, by the suggestion of a super-reality evoked by the contradictory possibilities of the line vying with each other and creating a third possibility out of the contradiction which words will not describe.

Putting a comma into the third line would destroy this effect the poem has on me.

Seriously, this should be a thread of it's own.

 

[twelveoone]

From yesterday .... I don't understand how an author can admit he wrote his poem in five minutes (with no editing) then complain loudly when readers notice and say so

Now, there you go again, Ms. Anne, Again with the four letter words EDIT, EDIT, EDIT.
Don't you know this is a porn site, decorum please!

Thus it came to pass
I took out the adverbs
And stuck 'em up your ass
And even more to get your goat
I took out the cliches
and stuffed 'em down your throat
and when the two
should chance to meet
this is what readers do...

ah, never mind it just gets uglier, and I would feel the need to Edit it.

 

[twelveoone]

and damn it, I will do it again
gutless wonder

WTF were you then?

Do you want me to fall over backwards, over your 17 syllable nonsense? Ain't happening. Plus I have good reason to believe your some of your friggin idols were commenting and voting on there own material.

Perhaps you might want to revisit and explain, just who "this mysterious group" is? What is their purpose? Love of poetry? Love of games? Love of alts and anons?

It is interesting who votes what, who says what, and who shows up when. Not to mention who writes what.

I really wouldn't mind knowing the real number, I count one here.

My advice, if you are a separate individual, is don't be their straw dog.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

and damn it, I will do it again
gutless wonder

WTF were you then?

Do you want me to fall over backwards, over your 17 syllable nonsense? Ain't happening. Plus I have good reason to believe your some of your friggin idols were commenting and voting on there own material.

Perhaps you might want to revisit and explain, just who "this mysterious group" is? What is their purpose? Love of poetry? Love of games? Love of alts and anons?

It is interesting who votes what, who says what, and who shows up when. Not to mention who writes what.

I really wouldn't mind knowing the real number, I count one here.

My advice, if you are a separate individual, is don't be their straw dog.

Are you dropping ginormous hints that I didn't comment on your poem? You must have submitted it when I was having a sabbatical from the slings and arrows of outrageous submissions in other words thoroughly pissed off with being ignored by certain poets (?) that submitted the same thing over and over again ad nauseum, Quite what you mean with your second link I've no idea

 

[twelveoone]

By the way the above was a tirade. In case you couldn't get it.
Now I don't claim to be better than anyone here. If you are reading this, I will make an exception in certain cases, that is merely assuming that you are not alts of a better writer, functioning as a straw dog.

I have no desire to do NPR, as I would have to read a lot of crap, and try to determine whether or not some of the serial dumpers are not just merely spoofers. "Three" boys here were much more self aggrandizing, "two" of which may have been better poets. Game players, interested mainly in themselves. One of which was just downright nasty to a newb.

So in the interest of catching up

Kisses and otherwise love
I'm laughing. Why?

 

[twelveoone]

Are you dropping ginormous hints that I didn't comment on your poem? You must have submitted it when I was having a sabbatical from the slings and arrows of outrageous submissions in other words thoroughly pissed off with being ignored by certain poets (?) that submitted the same thing over and over again ad nauseum, Quite what you mean with your second link I've no idea

nah, the "hinter", you probably are more feed up with the bullshit than I am.
But I'm not doing NPR

 

[simply__me]

Here is a shortened version of my above post:

Good punctuation will serve to minimize ambiguity.

Ambiguity is an excellent poetic device to expand the range of poetic expression.

simply--me does an ah ha

lorencino, this time you spent with explanation does much for this humble scribe

effect, meaning--damn, poetry is complex

 

[simply__me]

I'm about to fall asleep, but wanted to comment on the two love poems that twelveoone did the recommend on before I forget (thanks, btw).

When (insert name) and I met for the first time, I drove many hours to her friend's house. So much was going through my mind, because although we had not met face to face, I knew I had fallen in love (countless hours texting, emails, phone calls). It was shocking to me, to think I could love again after all the jaded crap of the last marriage. I swore I would not love anyone again, nor ever get married.

But she, so strong of will,
fighting battles that we can't begin to comprehend,
yet remaining this glorious human

AND SHE LOVED ME

i felt so unworthy

but even in that, she would just go on and on,
calling me the man she should have met thirty years ago
such goodness,
such a mix of sadness over lost time,
yet Ecstasy over finally finding one another

i found i could love
she found she could love

two people in need of love found love

and the cynical among you

i was you

it's real, baby

and no romeo and juliet deadly ending

i'm a married man in a few days

thank you all for the wonderful comments on the poetry

those two poems, and another i will post soon, mean so much to me on a very personal level

thanks for recognizing that poetry is an outlet to simply express

so says simply__me

now, i'm sleepy

much to do in the next few days

can't wait for ya'll to meet my sweet

 

[twelveoone]

I'm about to fall asleep, but wanted to comment on the two love poems that twelveoone did the recommend on before I forget (thanks, btw).

When (insert name) and I met for the first time, I drove many hours to her friend's house. So much was going through my mind, because although we had not met face to face, I knew I had fallen in love (countless hours texting, emails, phone calls). It was shocking to me, to think I could love again after all the jaded crap of the last marriage. I swore I would not love anyone again, nor ever get married.

But she, so strong of will,
fighting battles that we can't begin to comprehend,
yet remaining this glorious human

AND SHE LOVED ME

i felt so unworthy

but even in that, she would just go on and on,
calling me the man she should have met thirty years ago
such goodness,
such a mix of sadness over lost time,
yet Ecstasy over finally finding one another

i found i could love
she found she could love

two people in need of love found love

and the cynical among you

i was you

it's real, baby

and no romeo and juliet deadly ending

i'm a married man in a few days

thank you all for the wonderful comments on the poetry

those two poems, and another i will post soon, mean so much to me on a very personal level

thanks for recognizing that poetry is an outlet to simply express

so says simply__me

now, i'm sleepy

much to do in the next few days

can't wait for ya'll to meet my sweet

I point out, I thanked you.
Best wishes

 

[simply__me]

I point out, I thanked you.
Best wishes

I saw it twelveoone. Simply said, it was nice.

I have always appreciated your directness in comments. I, like others, will miss it if you do not post NPR's in the future. But if I read this thread correctly (among others), if you recommended, you stand the chance for a sort of retaliation.


People should judge based upon the merit of a poem (which is personal to all of us). It's sad to do otherwise. You do a fine job of identifying poetry, and you DO comment if you think the poem may have problems, but you will still give it a recommend because you think there is some merit in the piece even if it isn't your fav, or a type of poetry you don't dig.

I offer you a most sincere thank you. You were the first to ever leave a comment on one of my poems, and I kept sticking around here due to the types of encouragement you gave through the new poet thread (and other stuff I like about this forum).

 

[twelveoone]

I saw it twelveoone. Simply said, it was nice.

I have always appreciated your directness in comments. I, like others, will miss it if you do not post NPR's in the future. But if I read this thread correctly (among others), if you recommended, you stand the chance for a sort of retaliation.


People should judge based upon the merit of a poem (which is personal to all of us). It's sad to do otherwise. You do a fine job of identifying poetry, and you DO comment if you think the poem may have problems, but you will still give it a recommend because you think there is some merit in the piece even if it isn't your fav, or a type of poetry you don't dig.

I offer you a most sincere thank you. You were the first to ever leave a comment on one of my poems, and I kept sticking around here due to the types of encouragement you gave through the new poet thread (and other stuff I like about this forum).

Thank you for the kind words. I've already suffered the "bullshit". I expect it from the sad pansies, the cowards, the nests. I've seen too many good people leave/ and or get discouraged because of their nastiness, freeloading, and screwing around with their H's and others.

Doing NPR means you have to read. Anyone doing it is presented with the dilemma is separating the bullshit artists from those that want honest feedback. It has come to the point where I can not honestly do it anymore.

The two things I fear are:
If I recommend, the recommended suffers retaliation. Seen it before. At one point, I waited, commented after the flurry.
And I don't want to be an opinion leader. Poetry is too diverse, nothing is 100%, there really is no right way or wrong way. It's divided more along the lines of dumber and better.

I function best as an outsider, sometimes as the devil's advocate.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

‎~*~ Don't piss me off...I have a wand & I ain't afraid to bibbity-bobbity-boo Ur ass into a pile of shit... So go ahead sweetheart make my freakin' day!!! ~*~

scuse me I feel better now

 

[theognis]

Understood

"If I recommend, the recommended suffers retaliation. Seen it before."

I've pretty much stopped commenting for that reason.

 

[twelveoone]

"If I recommend, the recommended suffers retaliation. Seen it before."

I've pretty much stopped commenting for that reason.

Rules of the Internet
Rules #3-7

see also 540
and #2029
417 may apply

 

[serpentwrap]

"If I recommend, the recommended suffers retaliation. Seen it before."

I've pretty much stopped commenting for that reason.

There seems to be too much history, retaliation, heartburn etc. regarding comments and voting. Thats one of the reasons why I always post my appreciative comments as anonymous. For the same reasons, I have turned public comments off. Those who want to make an honest critique of my work and offer constructive suggestions have sent me private comments. And I have benefited immensely from them. Its highly appreciated, So thank you to all the anonymous ones who have commented on my poems. I have cherished your criticisms.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Rules of the Internet
Rules #3-7

see also 540
and #2029
417 may apply

I tried to PM you but you're full up can you clear some please?

There seems to be too much history, retaliation, heartburn etc. regarding comments and voting. Thats one of the reasons why I always post my appreciative comments as anonymous. For the same reasons, I have turned public comments off. Those who want to make an honest critique of my work and offer constructive suggestions have sent me private comments. And I have benefited immensely from them. Its highly appreciated, So thank you to all the anonymous ones who have commented on my poems. I have cherished your criticisms.

well that's one Anon accounted for ..... don't you realise how frustrating it is to get Anon comments? you don't like them and have turned your comments off but expect others to get them from you ..... hardly fair is it?

 

[serpentwrap]

I have only turned off public display of comments. I've been getting anon comments as well. All the comments I have posted are on those poems that I liked. I do not comment on those I don't understand - and many poems I do not understand at all - or those I don't like. But I do see your point of frustration. Never thought of it that way. Next time, I shall remedy the situation. Now send us a poetic gem like last time, pronto...

 

[theognis]

Rules of the Internet
Rules #3-7

see also 540
and #2029
417 may apply

Rule #20 may be the most instructive, and hardest to follow.

 

[theognis]

There seems to be too much history, retaliation, heartburn etc. regarding comments and voting. Thats one of the reasons why I always post my appreciative comments as anonymous. For the same reasons, I have turned public comments off. Those who want to make an honest critique of my work and offer constructive suggestions have sent me private comments. And I have benefited immensely from them. Its highly appreciated, So thank you to all the anonymous ones who have commented on my poems. I have cherished your criticisms.

"Thats one of the reasons why I always post my appreciative comments as anonymous."

I started doing that a while back, but it's best not to say you voted a five, apparently.

 

[twelveoone]

I have only turned off public display of comments. I've been getting anon comments as well. All the comments I have posted are on those poems that I liked. I do not comment on those I don't understand - and many poems I do not understand at all - or those I don't like. But I do see your point of frustration. Never thought of it that way. Next time, I shall remedy the situation. Now send us a poetic gem like last time, pronto...

Why?
As far as anonymous comments go, how do you assign a value to it? It would have to be very specific and illustrative to have any real value. If it was don't you think others might possibly benefit?
As far as comments only that you like. That is fine, you should support what you like, however, growth exists outside your comfort zone.
If you "understand" it, it probably isn't poetry. The things that "bother" probably are. It hides between, behind and in the effects. Sometimes a comment unravels a part of it.

See also rule 111

And then sometimes people are just talking out of their ass, I do sometimes and admit to it, anon does most of time and never does.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

"Thats one of the reasons why I always post my appreciative comments as anonymous."

I started doing that a while back, but it's best not to say you voted a five, apparently.

Is this own up to being Anon week? the same comment applies to you *see above*

 

[theognis]

Is this own up to being Anon week? the same comment applies to you *see above*

When I realized approval from me on a new poem was usually followed immediately by an anonymous one or two vote, I tried disguising my approval a couple of different ways, one of which I used on your most recent poem, as you know. I've concluded voting with no comment is best. I've almost never criticized anyone's poetry, anyway, and anonymous approval in the form of a five vote is just as good as an open five, in reality.

 

[serpentwrap]

Why?
As far as anonymous comments go, how do you assign a value to it? It would have to be very specific and illustrative to have any real value. If it was don't you think others might possibly benefit?
As far as comments only that you like. That is fine, you should support what you like, however, growth exists outside your comfort zone.
If you "understand" it, it probably isn't poetry. The things that "bother" probably are. It hides between, behind and in the effects. Sometimes a comment unravels a part of it.

See also rule 111

And then sometimes people are just talking out of their ass, I do sometimes and admit to it, anon does most of time and never does.

Why does a comment need to have a value assigned? Jeez, aren't we getting a tad anal about this? In fact anon comments ensure a marked avoidance of any personal biases that might cloud judgement. Poetry like most works of art, is an individual's mirror. There was a time when I hated Walt Whitman. As I read more of his, I started appreciating him more. I love Frost for perhaps entirely different reasons than others. Keats appeals to me some days while it could be Eliot or Dryden on other days. Why, if Plath depresses me, I might take to Larkin. Its an individual taste, innit?

Sometimes being pedagogic sounds patronising. The above post sure has traces of both.

But then you guys are real aesthete poets. I'm just a neophyte amateur who likes reading poetry that appeals to my sensibilities and sensitivities. Occasionally I dabble in writing a few as well. Its not always neural, the aural and emotional bonding with a poem may cater to my philistine tastes equally well, thank you very much.

If you so wish, I shall refrain from participating any further. Will just lurk as usual.

But 1201, I really really appreciate your dedication to poetry. And your comments are mostly educative and spot on.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

When I realized approval from me on a new poem was usually followed immediately by an anonymous one or two vote, I tried disguising my approval a couple of different ways, one of which I used on your most recent poem, as you know. I've concluded voting with no comment is best. I've almost never criticized anyone's poetry, anyway, and anonymous approval in the form of a five vote is just as good as an open five, in reality.

How is a poet to grow if they are never criticized? I've had my fair share and like to think I've improved from it besides which some of the numptys that submit in the name of poetry deserve it!

Why does a comment need to have a value assigned? Jeez, aren't we getting a tad anal about this? In fact anon comments ensure a marked avoidance of any personal biases that might cloud judgement. Poetry like most works of art, is an individual's mirror. There was a time when I hated Walt Whitman. As I read more of his, I started appreciating him more. I love Frost for perhaps entirely different reasons than others. Keats appeals to me some days while it could be Eliot or Dryden on other days. Why, if Plath depresses me, I might take to Larkin. Its an individual taste, innit?

Sometimes being pedagogic sounds patronising. The above post sure has traces of both.

But then you guys are real aesthete poets. I'm just a neophyte amateur who likes reading poetry that appeals to my sensibilities and sensitivities. Occasionally I dabble in writing a few as well. Its not always neural, the aural and emotional bonding with a poem may cater to my philistine tastes equally well, thank you very much.

If you so wish, I shall refrain from participating any further. Will just lurk as usual.

But 1201, I really really appreciate your dedication to poetry. And your comments are mostly educative and spot on.

nooooooo lurking allowed you're here now and must take the rough with the smooth like everyone else