U.S. politics isolation tank

[Netzach]

I've been tuning into right wing talk shows for some day-after political porn. And while one of the handwringing points is definitely "we have to change some things," I'm very pleased to announce that any time the comversations veer anywhere near actual policy positions, it quickly autocorrects to 1."We just need to PRESENT our positions more clearly," 2."We just need to get our people TO THE POLLS more efficiently" and 3."We just need an UNAPOLOGETIC conservative who offers voters a clearer choice."

This is all predictable double-downing, and makes me so very happy and warm inside.

The other thing I keep hearing is the sour grapes "the Dems won because they give away "free stuff" and the GOP, ever-responsible, can't and won't compete with that. Please. Besides the easy "freeness" of believing that we can have services and entitlements and military orgies without paying for any of them, how about just the, um, idea of finding out what people want and need and offering the means for them to have that?

That would seem like a winning strategy to me for anyone wanting to be elected. Also seems to be very popular in the business world.

It's really tempting to gloat. Some of the smarter ones are remembering that T shirt the nerdy IT guy was wearing about the definition of insanity, but let's face it...
very...
very few.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, I'm no expert, but I feel like a lot of the complaints about wall street/corporate america raised by Occupy just kind of went by the wayside. I think the fed gov should have been tougher in the bailout of big firms. I'm not entirely sure what else would make sense to reign in corporations but I think we need more. I think health care coverage should be broader. Campaign finance is a big complicated issue - again, not entirely sure what the answer is but I think the superpacs are just crazy.

Funny you suggest this, because my Republican buddies (who actually fit your hypothetical) have been saying since the start of OWS that a Christie-style Republican should stand up and say: "They're right."

U.S. capitalism is NOT well served when deal makers shut down American factories and walk away with Swiss/Caribbean multi-millions as a matter of course. We need someone who understands the economic importance of a healthy block of middle class consumers, à la Henry Ford.

And of course, socialism for Wall Street is not just morally repugnant but a metaphorical cancer destroying the celebrated American economic plan.

 

[JMohegan]

The other thing I keep hearing is the sour grapes "the Dems won because they give away "free stuff" and the GOP, ever-responsible, can't and won't compete with that.

Mitt Romney's a typical guy born on third who thinks he hit a triple. Few things piss me off more than his disdain for the 47 percenters.

And Bill O'Reilly & his ilk can choke on those grapes for all I care.

 

[JMohegan]

Actually, in Canada, I think we see him as just slightly right of center, lol.

So do many of us!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_the_2012_election_should_teach_the_gop.html

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

In Florida ----counting------counting------counting. Well what can you expect when people were still voting in the wee hours of Wednesday??

ON a lighter note:

From Guardian reader
rugbyguy35
Hey mitt-our Olympics went pretty well. How did your election go?
Ooh. Too soon?


Oh! And once Mitt started commenting on what a disaster Italy, Spain, etc were, his speechs began to attract some serious attention in those quarters.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Fail: Anti-Obama teen wants to move to Australia because we have 'Christian, male president'

....18-year-old Georgia republican Kristen Neel joined the throngs of American Twitter users claiming they were moving to Australia to escape Obama's presidency.

Unfortunately, she got a few facts wrong.

"I'm moving to Australia, because their president is a Christian and actually supports what he says,'' she tweeted.

Neel's tweet quickly went viral as bemused Aussies retweeted it more than 1400 times, many pointing out that Australia actually has an atheist, female Prime Minister.

"Our Prime Minister is a woman, an atheist who lives with a man she hasn't married. I don't think you'd like it here,'' tweeted Ian Cuthbertson, TV editor at The Australian.

"I think you meant Antarctica. Move there,'' tweeted @post_rock0.

"Congratulations on being the dumbest person in the world,'' tweeted @Patrickavenell.​

More through the link in the headline.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

WTF??

FEMA disaster center shuttered “due to weather”
The agency intended to aid hurricane victims closes its doors because of the nor'easter​

 

[intothewoods]

My reaction?

I'm listening. I think that private sector partnerships and strengthening entrepreneurship are the real answers (or part of the real answer) to social safety net issues in a lot of ways, so if I think that's actually being pursued in a smart way, I'm open to it. If you REALLY want to balance that budget and you don't just want to do it on gramma's back while fighting a pointless "war on drugs" and imprisoning more people than anywhere else, if you're talking about opening bars 24 hours or putting in a race track because the money has to come from SOMETHING I'm not opposed to consideration - I want to see someone have the balls to pull away from prohibition morality, and sin tax stuff other than smokes. Dems will never do it. This GOP will never do it.

I don't partake, but I'm beyond pleased with the 420 wins. There is a huge economic component to decriminalization.

I'm very cynical about the current model preventing addiction, or saving lives. Anything that moves toward harm reduction is a) small government, supposedly they want that and b) worth a try.

I don't see much of a difference between pot "clinics" or whatever and bars. Why not let that business thrive? Another way Obama's administration isn't different. The war on drugs is the same -- I think they just don't call the drug czar "czar" anymore.

I can't agree more, you hit the nail on the head. I don't know what the answer is, because the problems are so impenetrable and at every opportunity they're getting away with murder. See the "Country Club Sopranos" article in the Voice, for an idea of how our sober regulatory never again administration has been handling Wall Street.

I almost give up on trying to stop their robbery, I feel like the best I can hope for is a party who will extend some of the incentivization to the individual in a meaningful way that doesn't just translate to helpful for multinationals. The GOP isn't capable of that at present plus dominionist lunacy, and the Dems are missing how this meshes into the social safety net issues, that keeping people from needing that safety net in the first place is part of the picture.

And that those of us who DO have a job might like it and not want to be one of ninety people working for a wind farm closing in January. Or a fracking company, so...what now?

The tea partiers and the occupy folks should be getting together. We all should. What major global corporations get away with has nothing to do with small business and entrepreneurial spirit.

You know, there is just so much discrepancy between rhetoric and what the policies actually achieve -- from abortion to war on drugs to wall street reform. It IS enough to make you go totally tin foil hat nutty.

Liberals kind of smugly talk about "low information voters" but we're all kind of low information voters, aren't we? I don't really watch much cable news but this election cycle has made me want to keep it off completely. I heard Candi Crowley refer to Paul Ryan as a "budget brainiac." I know this is a small point but aren't his numbers heavily disputed? I mean, maybe that's democratic spin. I'll have to go read someone smarter than me on that, but that was my recollection. I guess my bottom line is that facts are facts -- either his math works or it doesn't. What is with this two versions of reality??

Funny you suggest this, because my Republican buddies (who actually fit your hypothetical) have been saying since the start of OWS that a Christie-style Republican should stand up and say: "They're right."

U.S. capitalism is NOT well served when deal makers shut down American factories and walk away with Swiss/Caribbean multi-millions as a matter of course. We need someone who understands the economic importance of a healthy block of middle class consumers, à la Henry Ford.

And of course, socialism for Wall Street is not just morally repugnant but a metaphorical cancer destroying the celebrated American economic plan.

For various reasons, a Democrat who has a populist sort of fiscal approach and liberal approach to social issues will be seen as too progressive, morally dangerous, too lefty. The take away is basically that's a hippie -- like -- blanking on the name but the short hobbit like dude with the super hot wife. Ran for president in '08. Anyway.

A Republican with that same message could convey more of a "government out of my business" perspective and maybe also the respect and support for small businesses, for the positive aspects of entrepreneurship. But if Obama does that it's OMG SOLINDRA! Or whatever that company was called. Anyway, we should be able to look at corporate behavior without it being a socialist plot. WTF.

I'm kind of obsessed with the role of storytelling right now. Like Facebook is evil -- I believe it -- on the other hand, I just watched the Social Network again and damn if I didn't root for Jesse Eisenberg. At least in the beginning. I know one is a movie, but I think there are lessons to be had there about the stories and messages that resonate with us.

 

[rosco rathbone]

The tea partiers and the occupy folks should be getting together.

I spent last October at OWS trying to reach out to anyone at all who was 1. interested and 2. not a hipster, NYU student, dirt punk, grad student or professional organizer.

I had a lot of great conversations but nothing to convince me that there's a snowball's chance in hell of any teabag-occupy linkup.

We view the central problem from two completely opposite standpoints. Just because we're all looking in the same direction means little.

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

<clip, clip>Liberals kind of smugly talk about "low information voters" but we're all kind of low information voters, aren't we? I don't really watch much cable news but this election cycle has made me want to keep it off completely. I heard Candi Crowley refer to Paul Ryan as a "budget brainiac." I know this is a small point but aren't his numbers heavily disputed? I mean, maybe that's democratic spin. I'll have to go read someone smarter than me on that, but that was my recollection. I guess my bottom line is that facts are facts -- either his math works or it doesn't. What is with this two versions of reality??
>>>>
I'm kind of obsessed with the role of storytelling right now. Like Facebook is evil -- I believe it -- on the other hand, I just watched the Social Network again and damn if I didn't root for Jesse Eisenberg. At least in the beginning. I know one is a movie, but I think there are lessons to be had there about the stories and messages that resonate with us.

I find most TV and print journalism too superficial for any real understanding. I prefer book, book, and books.

I highly recommend:

The Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth About Our Money System and How We Can Break Free [Paperback] by Ellen Hodgson Brown

http://www.amazon.com/The-Web-Debt-...=UTF8&colid=JU53U9BSJ17R&coliid=I1ISYOD5CVM7E
Brown has the ability to explain complex economic matters in plain language with no Wall St baggage.


The Price of Inequality: How Today's Divided Society Endangers Our Future [Hardcover]
Joseph E. Stiglitz (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Price-Ine...UTF8&colid=JU53U9BSJ17R&coliid=I1CCO8G5XP6CZE

One of the brightest of economists writing today.

 

[JMohegan]

I spent last October at OWS trying to reach out to anyone at all who was 1. interested and 2. not a hipster, NYU student, dirt punk, grad student or professional organizer.

I had a lot of great conversations but nothing to convince me that there's a snowball's chance in hell of any teabag-occupy linkup.

We view the central problem from two completely opposite standpoints. Just because we're all looking in the same direction means little.

Right. It's like suggesting a Planned Parenthood/ Focus on the Family coalition to tackle teen pregnancy rates.

 

[JMohegan]

From Guardian reader
rugbyguy35
Hey mitt-our Olympics went pretty well. How did your election go?
Ooh. Too soon?

Haha, perfect.

 

[Netzach]

I don't see much of a difference between pot "clinics" or whatever and bars. Why not let that business thrive? Another way Obama's administration isn't different. The war on drugs is the same -- I think they just don't call the drug czar "czar" anymore.



The tea partiers and the occupy folks should be getting together. We all should. What major global corporations get away with has nothing to do with small business and entrepreneurial spirit.

You know, there is just so much discrepancy between rhetoric and what the policies actually achieve -- from abortion to war on drugs to wall street reform. It IS enough to make you go totally tin foil hat nutty.

Liberals kind of smugly talk about "low information voters" but we're all kind of low information voters, aren't we? I don't really watch much cable news but this election cycle has made me want to keep it off completely. I heard Candi Crowley refer to Paul Ryan as a "budget brainiac." I know this is a small point but aren't his numbers heavily disputed? I mean, maybe that's democratic spin. I'll have to go read someone smarter than me on that, but that was my recollection. I guess my bottom line is that facts are facts -- either his math works or it doesn't. What is with this two versions of reality??



For various reasons, a Democrat who has a populist sort of fiscal approach and liberal approach to social issues will be seen as too progressive, morally dangerous, too lefty. The take away is basically that's a hippie -- like -- blanking on the name but the short hobbit like dude with the super hot wife. Ran for president in '08. Anyway.

A Republican with that same message could convey more of a "government out of my business" perspective and maybe also the respect and support for small businesses, for the positive aspects of entrepreneurship. But if Obama does that it's OMG SOLINDRA! Or whatever that company was called. Anyway, we should be able to look at corporate behavior without it being a socialist plot. WTF.

I'm kind of obsessed with the role of storytelling right now. Like Facebook is evil -- I believe it -- on the other hand, I just watched the Social Network again and damn if I didn't root for Jesse Eisenberg. At least in the beginning. I know one is a movie, but I think there are lessons to be had there about the stories and messages that resonate with us.

As there are two Mitt Romeys there are two Paul Ryans, is my understanding. Another "low information voter" snob, that I am, all I saw was the tight-lipped Eddie Munster who was going to save the world but not tell us how... dogged lib friends who actually dug into his budget insist it's insane, but not that it's stupid, stupid in the sense of ranting fantasy irrelevant. It would work - in an abstract world where people don't actually enter into it.

Make of that what you will. They probably put a shock device on him for any time he actually got wonkish in dealing with the public. There WERE no disclosures from the actual plan during the race, you have to dig in and look for deep articles on the damn thing.

Parts of my family are tea people. There IS no front brain to sit down and find common ground with. None.

Do you seriously think any of these people are thinking "you know if there was a dem who had balanced a state budget and cut a lot of fat, and was a gun owner and a hunter all his/her life and is very strong on the second, would you consider voting for him/her ?" as we speak, right now?

 

[Netzach]

I spent last October at OWS trying to reach out to anyone at all who was 1. interested and 2. not a hipster, NYU student, dirt punk, grad student or professional organizer.

I had a lot of great conversations but nothing to convince me that there's a snowball's chance in hell of any teabag-occupy linkup.

We view the central problem from two completely opposite standpoints. Just because we're all looking in the same direction means little.

This is God's work you do here. Truly. Because there IS a silent majority - it's just not what they think it is, and their exposure to Occupy - I think is playing deeply in the subconscious. There were enough images of people who look "like me" invested in Occupy that some cognitive dissonance was heard.

I think a LOT of people did get the message that this was not just a crusty punk tent city.

I think unions are having a "gay marriage" moment - remember just what it took Scott Walker to hang onto his job at all. That is not a loud chorus of approval. I believe that in five years, Unions are going to poll a lot better than "gonorrhea" which have been about on par in popularity in the American public yahoo brain.

I think there are a lot of reasons nobody wanted to talk about foreign policy, partly "Greece is Exploding."

 

[rosco rathbone]

This is God's work you do here. Truly. Because there IS a silent majority - it's just not what they think it is, and their exposure to Occupy - I think is playing deeply in the subconscious. There were enough images of people who look "like me" invested in Occupy that some cognitive dissonance was heard.

I think a LOT of people did get the message that this was not just a crusty punk tent city.

I think unions are having a "gay marriage" moment - remember just what it took Scott Walker to hang onto his job at all. That is not a loud chorus of approval. I believe that in five years, Unions are going to poll a lot better than "gonorrhea" which have been about on par in popularity in the American public yahoo brain.

I think there are a lot of reasons nobody wanted to talk about foreign policy, partly "Greece is Exploding."

There were some amazing moments there. One night we all sat around the ad hoc union table with steamfitters, longshoremen, teamsters, girl electrician apprentices, a haz mat laborer, a couple old radicals out of retirement who looked like they'd died and gone to heaven, two Rick Perry supporting conservative frat boys from New Orleans and a expatriate diamond miner with false teeth back from Brazil who kept trying to pervily convince me to move out to the backwoods there because "a tall guy like you with a little money would have his pick of teenage poontang".

We were talking politics like crazy.Anyone who had something to say could get a word in.For a magic second or two there, I actually thought that maybe just maybe this thing could have legs. I wish I could describe the feeling, it was like having hold of a political live wire.

 

[Netzach]

WTF??

FEMA disaster center shuttered “due to weather”
The agency intended to aid hurricane victims closes its doors because of the nor'easter​

What's the problem? Beyond the usual level of suckitude that disaster response usually is.

My SIL works for FEMA on sites like this. Should she buy the farm in the course of her job so things are fair for everyone, or live to help out another day? It's harsh but seems pretty pragmatic. This isn't a sinking cruise ship, it's a logistical problem that has to be solved for a huge population with people who are trained, you can't just fly in some fresh face and hand out water bottles if your entire logistical office gets washed out.

If you want to REALLY get depressed, watch a doc on the '39 hurricane and nor'easter, which got buried during the war, in a reversal of our current foreign/domestic obsessions.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This in a nutshell is why I voted Green.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/109904/boehner-statement-fiscal-cliff-revenue-election-obama-leverage


My prediction: Obama "negotiates" as if trying to give away the farm this time too, despite everyone saying he's got all the hand now.

 

[Netzach]

This in a nutshell is why I voted Green.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/109904/boehner-statement-fiscal-cliff-revenue-election-obama-leverage


My prediction: Obama "negotiates" as if trying to give away the farm this time too, despite everyone saying he's got all the hand now.

I won't bet a beer against you, until the midterms. Frankly, I can't see any other way, because we are not a monarchy and there's only so much POTUS can do - part of me believes it's the game not the playa, but you're probably right. Their majority in the house is smaller, the senate is more D, and yet...they can fuck up any progress.

And what's Obama's incentive to bite the hands? More oil money than any candidate ever, term one. EVER.

I think that anyone who ignores the exit polls which put over 60 percent of us favoring more taxes on those making over 250K - does this at their own peril. They LOST the message war there. Dems should check that memo.

 

[midwestyankee]

This in a nutshell is why I voted Green.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/109904/boehner-statement-fiscal-cliff-revenue-election-obama-leverage


My prediction: Obama "negotiates" as if trying to give away the farm this time too, despite everyone saying he's got all the hand now.

I'm not so sure. I think that he has pretty clearly signalled that he wants to change the way people think about Democrats. He has successfully made the Democratic party into the party that more people trust on foreign policy and national security. I think his next goal will be to ensure that the American people trust progressives and Democrats on the economy as well. And to do that he's going to have to take big steps to both reduce the deficit and defeat the no-tax-cuts-ever brigade.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I don't trust him one bit, not after the offer he made Boehner last summer, which if accepted would have been a historic triumph for the anti new deal right. That's the moment he lost my vote for good and all.

I sure hope you guys are right and I'm wrong.

 

[midwestyankee]

I don't trust him one bit, not after the offer he made Boehner last summer, which if accepted would have been a historic triumph for the anti new deal right. That's the moment he lost my vote for good and all.

I sure hope you guys are right and I'm wrong.

Here are a couple things I've read today that support my thinking:

Second Term Surprise

Resetting the 'Cliff"

More than anything else, it's my gut feeling that he wants to leave a legacy - and this is not news. It's the core raison d'etre of every second-term president. Clinton wasted immense amounts of energy and capital trying to broker a middle east deal in the last days of his administration. He desperately wanted to be known for something besides a few sloppy blowjobs. They all do.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

What's the problem? Beyond the usual level of suckitude that disaster response usually is.

My SIL works for FEMA on sites like this. Should she buy the farm in the course of her job so things are fair for everyone, or live to help out another day? It's harsh but seems pretty pragmatic. This isn't a sinking cruise ship, it's a logistical problem that has to be solved for a huge population with people who are trained, you can't just fly in some fresh face and hand out water bottles if your entire logistical office gets washed out.

If you want to REALLY get depressed, watch a doc on the '39 hurricane and nor'easter, which got buried during the war, in a reversal of our current foreign/domestic obsessions.

My problem with it is the apparent lack of foresight demonstrated by the *management* of FEMA. Disastrous weather, like a hurricane of that magnitude, is going to create problems other than the actual hurricane. It's freakin' wintertime. Storms come, one after another after another. That's what winter does. PLAN for those things, and if they *don't* happen, then great, but if they do, we were prepared! I have no problem with the run-of-the-mill disaster worker; it's the head in the sand ostriches who RUN government programs, and can't plan for worse-case - or worst-case - scenarios who piss me off.

 

[midwestyankee]

My problem with it is the apparent lack of foresight demonstrated by the *management* of FEMA. Disastrous weather, like a hurricane of that magnitude, is going to create problems other than the actual hurricane. It's freakin' wintertime. Storms come, one after another after another. That's what winter does. PLAN for those things, and if they *don't* happen, then great, but if they do, we were prepared! I have no problem with the run-of-the-mill disaster worker; it's the head in the sand ostriches who RUN government programs, and can't plan for worse-case - or worst-case - scenarios who piss me off.

When I looked at the article it seemed that the reason for shutting down these particular facilities is that they consist of mobile trailers. What kind of different planning would you want them to do? Look around and rent space in undamaged buildings rather than truck in ready-made offices? I'm really curious how you would have solved this problem differently.

 

[Netzach]

My problem with it is the apparent lack of foresight demonstrated by the *management* of FEMA. Disastrous weather, like a hurricane of that magnitude, is going to create problems other than the actual hurricane. It's freakin' wintertime. Storms come, one after another after another. That's what winter does. PLAN for those things, and if they *don't* happen, then great, but if they do, we were prepared! I have no problem with the run-of-the-mill disaster worker; it's the head in the sand ostriches who RUN government programs, and can't plan for worse-case - or worst-case - scenarios who piss me off.

The people who are in those trailers are doing logistics. They are not just handing out blankets, they are a critical part of the chain of logistics decisions. There is a bottom-up-top-down nature to all the decision making, very much like the millitary (a lot of people come to the org from the military) - those "head in the sand" people are constantly being informed by people who liaison with the ground situation.

It's not perfect, but I don't know what people expect. Are they all living in Giants stadium? No.

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

I don't trust him one bit, not after the offer he made Boehner last summer, which if accepted would have been a historic triumph for the anti new deal right. That's the moment he lost my vote for good and all.

I sure hope you guys are right and I'm wrong.

Unfortunately I'm with you on this one. I voted Green for Pres and Demo for the rest.

I read a brief that argued that SS and Medicare, Medicaid would be safer with Romney in the White House. If Romney tried to cut them, Nancy Pelosi would kick him in the balls until he puked. The danger will be that Obama will trade off the safety net for a bowl of porridge. The title assertion was that Obamacare should be called Pelosicare.