Warning: "Language" is sexist and dangerous to a woman's health

[Guest]

Re: Arrrgghhhhhhh

Ps. Hey Perdita, Is that Brigett Nilsson?

Are you kidding? Nilsson was built more like Brunnhilde's horse. That's the glorious Gynneth Jones as the head valk. The pic's from the SF 1990 Ring, my first.

Perdita, newly reborn Valkyrie

(The line above the pic is their war cry; they sing it when they gather up the dead heroes after a battle to bring them home to Pops Wotan in Valhalla, on their flying steeds of course.)

 

[Pure]

To Mlle:

Let's see, we've got three ingredients:

1) A denunciation of a rape story as the work of a dangerous predator who's imminiently on the prowl.

2) A quote you posted suggesting that rape stories may lead to the 'learning' of rape.


"According to social learning theorists, rape is learned and reinforce through four processes: " 1) by imitating rape scenes and other acts of violence toward women that are seen in person, conveyed by others, or depicted by the mass media, 2) by associating sexuality and violence, 3) by perpetuating various "rape myths," such as "No means Yes" and "Women secretly desire to be raped," and 4) by desensitizing men to the pain, fear, and humiliation of sexual aggression" (Brown, Esbensen, Geis, 1991)."

3) A pro first amendment assertion, and expression of how could that be questioned:


the first amendment is a big deal for me. I don't take it lightly, and I don't relish you slinging implications of "anti" in my direction. That crosses the line.

Given your background you must know that if a (type of) 'work of art' (alleged) could be shown to cause or incite crime--or tangible, obvious harms to some citizens--, as your quotation suggests, that would place it outside the scope of first amendment protection. The work could be suppressed without conflict with the first amendment as interpreted by the SC.

Indeed the argument of Brown et al. (you don't say where you got it) regarding consent myths and 'desensitization' echoes the argument of feminist legal expert MacKinnon as to why porn (or obscene writing, I think) should not be let alone by the law, but should be grounds for civil lawsuits by women.

The suits would allege that 'equal protection' rights are violated where material circulates that is of the sort that causes men to become rapists. The woman would seek damages from the author and/or publisher and/or distributer because the work is likely or possibly to make her a rape victim.

IF you endorse your own quote, the path you're on is pretty clear, even if the technical term 'censorship' does not apply (call it socially and legally sanctioned suppression). It's consistent with the first amendment since you're going to end up defining 'works' of that type as unprotected.

So yes I will agree that, like MacKinnon, you favor first amendment rights, but such 'friendship' of the first amendment is not so robust as might be presumed.

 

[Pure]

The virtues of Mlle

Mlledelaplumebleu:

[regarding _A cunt in a SUV_]

Does a depiction of repeatedly punching, kicking and brutalizing a woman until her teeth are knocked out ...

Pure said,
//I see no reference in the SUV story to the woman's teeth being knocked out. Can you give us a quote? //

Perd I agree with your fervent praise of her virtues, esp. intelligence; she just has a bit of trouble owning up to some of her missteps.

J.

 

[Pure]

Posted by Never on 08-10-2003 05:15 PM


The woman in the article assumes that all the women who smoke Silk Cut have a masochistic impulse. I find it much easier to believe that women are acting off of the same 'sadistic' impulse the men are.

[perd replied]
I don’t know what Never means by the same ‘sadistic’ impulse as men, don’t care to know at this point. The article does NOT assume all women who smoke Silk Cuts have a masochistic impulse, it states, "Many women are masochistic by temperament… They’ve learned what’s expected of them in a patriarchal society." The comment fits perfectly in the content and intent of the piece. Reread it.

OK, Never overstated the situation in saying 'all', but otherwise she makes good points. Robyn's claim is pretty dubious. The fact that it, according to Perd, 'fits perfectly in the content...' may well be true; Robyn is doctrinaire, imo, and the claim _fits_.

Yet the claim is likely untrue, and surely dubious in two ways:
1) It appears she is suggesting many women are --relative to men-- esp. masochistic. Where is the evidence? Freud? Deutsch?

2) FTSOA assume they are. Is it because 'they've learned what's expected of them in a patriarchal society' . Iow, Freud and some others, including female analysts, agree with women's masochism, but more as a biopsychological given. And how exactly does conformity to patriarchy induce masochism? cuz it hurts?

J.

 

[Guest]

Re: The virtues of Mlle

Perd I agree with your fervent praise of her virtues, esp. intelligence; she just has a bit of trouble owning up to some of her missteps.

Well, this is easy and I've got my breastplate on. Pure, can't you see/read in your own words how you come off?

"owning up" = righteous judgment. Now you sound evangelical. And "fervant"? I'm passionate about Mlle's intellect and bravado, but NOT fervant. Another evangelically metonomyc sign ferchrissakes.

Perdita

p.s. Yeah, I already feel bad about calling you names, but you drove me to it damnit.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Oh! Right...dear havarti Christ on a succulent saltwater biscuit-

I mis-characterized the brutality of the rape. No teeth were dislodged in the depiction of this rape. Amended to say: swollen, bruised, blood running out of asshole from invasive cell-phone stabbing, mixing with the fruits of the protagonist's "rape tool"- a gushing deluge of unwanted semen.

Gosh, Pure- I guess you win. My whole point hinged on whether or not teeth were lost. I've ruined my whole premise. Pages and pages of passionate discourse- all for naught- because here comes Pure with his devastating Johnny Cochranesque "dental defense"-

"If the teeth still sit, you must acquit!"

What a champion for the micro view. I tip my hat to your indefatigueable quest for loopholes.

Because I know the fine-tooth comb nature of "specialists" like yourself, who function so fully up the "Peter Principle" standard, I didn't even bother to scan through "A Cunt" to see if there was actual molar molestation therein.

Why would I subject myself to that? It's a shitty fucking story.

Good job, Pure! A coup for shoe-gazers everywhere.

miss asphixy-bic

 

[Guest]

Mz. Bic:

You make me LOL more than dancing bananas. Comic-relief to boot. I've asked you before and I'll ask again: marry me!

Trovatron

p.s. what time is our putting practice?

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Christ, we've been at the driving range for an hour!

Is your swing getting any better?

 

[Guest]

Is your swing getting any better?

Yeah, I'd say I got the hang of it when I got rid of those constricting white gloves. Thanks for the winged helmet too.

Ho yo to ho, ho yo to ho, hiyah!

 

[Pure]

Good Swings

Here's what I'm puzzling over:

What does it mean when a feminist expert in semeiotic, esp metaphors, metonyms, synecdoche, and interpellation, versed in penetrating the skewed representations of female genitals, says, by way of insult

[Perd:]

you over-stuffed twat

far beyond any probe of mine, but I'll see how far I can come--

viscous imaginings:

a most uncomplimentary term for a treasure trove.

synecdoche: part for (w)hole. woman identified with twat, hence
the term's gross connotations are to be true of the (w)hole woman and the intended recipient of the insult ; ugly and somehow stupid.

the 'overstuffed' further puzzles; is reception of two penes implied? would that be 'OVER stuffed'? how does a twat become 'overstuffed'? does a twat/vagina, by its nature as an infinitely receptive expansible envelope, simply lend itself to excess?

the twat/vulva, perhaps, are conceived to operate in the manner of a mouth, and devour; here, an excessive amount; a gourmadizing gash, as it were. can it ever be filled? it has no control or decency but stuffs *everything* in, bananas, pencils, penes of all races and species.
as in Ezekiel, copulates with sticks. it/she would fuck a doorknob, in modern parlance.

applied to a male. takes him down a peg, takes his peg down, pegs him down --to twat level, the level of female-who-is-only-(w)holely twat. he's down that low; further he's self satisfied, satisfied with self, as the hungry twat stuffs its self to imbecilic satisfaction.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

I guess sometimes a twat is just a twat.



See? You're right again!

 

[Never]

Perdita:
"I don’t know what Never means by the same ‘sadistic’ impulse as men, don’t care to know at this point."

I obviously did not make myself clear enough in my post. I will try to do so in the future.

"The article does NOT assume all women who smoke Silk Cuts have a masochistic impulse, it states, Many women are masochistic by temperament… They’ve learned what’s expected of them in a patriarchal society."

I see little difference between having a masochistic impulse and a masochistic temperament. I mean impulse as 'an instinctive motive', not a 'sudden desire'. I agree, I used 'all' when I should have said 'many', thank you for catching that.

"Reread it."
Perdita, while I understand that you feel strongly about the subject matter, commanding me to reread something that I have read several times is unlikely to change my opinions.

Math Girl:
"Dear Ms Never,
Are you going to extinguish that cigarette and get your feet off the couch? I hope you aren't going to make me come over there.
MG's Mom"

Dear MG's Mom,
I hope all is well with you.

While I dearly wish I could grant your request I fear I cannot. After years of chain smoking I have become addicted to cigarettes and if my body goes more than five minutes without the refreshing blend of mint, nicotine, and tar, I go into shock, which at my advanced age, might kill me. A lot.

Regarding the feet on the couch. Again, due to my years of chain smoking, I have limited oxygen capacity. I fear that if I moved my feet, the sudden change in blood pressure would cause me to go into hyperventilation and pass-out. As we all know, smokers who fall asleep while smoking start many house fires. For your safety and mine I must not move from this spot.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter,
Never

Blue Pen:
" Oh, Never! I can't win with you!

*laugh*

Look. Now you should feel all warm and squidgy, cause I have for you:

double nanas!"

*LMAO*
I'm sorry, whenever I see those things I remember the flash Laurel based them on.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/banana.html

(Not sure if this is the right link or not, my connection is too slow to download it all)

Pure:
"penes of all races and species."
Penes? A woman who fucks pasta of all races and species.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

*laugh*

I fear that I may have a masochistic impulse toward windmill fighting.

Albino black sheep is great.

And I shall be reflexively shaking my head for days trying to clear it of the pasta-as-sex-aid image, thank you very much!


Make mine manicotti...

 

[Never]

Hmmm… Better get out my Semiotics Dictionary. This may be a tough one to crack.

 

[Guest]

Re: Good Swings

Originally posted by Pure
Here's what I'm puzzling over: What does it mean when a feminist expert in semeiotic, esp metaphors, metonyms, synecdoche, and interpellation, versed in penetrating the skewed representations of female genitals, says, by way of insult

[Perd:] you over-stuffed twat

far beyond any probe of mine, but I'll see how far I can come--
viscous imaginings: a most uncomplimentary term for a treasure trove.

synecdoche: part for (w)hole. woman identified with twat, hence
the term's gross connotations are to be true of the (w)hole woman and the intended recipient of the insult; ugly and somehow stupid.

the 'overstuffed' further puzzles; is reception of two penes implied? would that be 'OVER stuffed'? how does a twat become 'overstuffed'? does a twat/vagina, by its nature as an infinitely receptive expansible envelope, simply lend itself to excess?

the twat/vulva, perhaps, are conceived to operate in the manner of a mouth, and devour; here, an excessive amount; a gourmadizing gash, as it were. can it ever be filled? it has no control or decency but stuffs *everything* in, bananas, pencils, penes of all races and species.

as in Ezekiel, copulates with sticks. it/she would fuck a doorknob, in modern parlance.

applied to a male. takes him down a peg, takes his peg down, pegs him down --to twat level, the level of female-who-is-only-(w)holely twat. he's down that low; further he's self satisfied, satisfied with self, as the hungry twat stuffs its self to imbecilic satisfaction.

OK, okay. I already said I felt bad about calling you names, not that the subjective intent wasn't meant though. I was given to understand by a UK pal that "twat" is used for either gender; but then he's from the north so there may be cultural differences involved.

I'm a feminist, yeah; came into it on my own then found out it had a name and second wave in the 70s, but I am not a feminist, blablabla expert; just well read and perhaps more exposed to academia than some. I have no idea what you look like but even so I wouldn't call anyone ugly w/re. to physiognomy.

A fun post, though, Pure. - Perdita

p.s. I wrote this near to the time you sent your post but then had lapdog problems; now I'm up due to fire engines across the street.

 

[Guest]

NEVER: love the pasta, they're easily available in my town, but I think the significance is beyond semiotics, deconstruction or even Lacanian psychoanalysis (Freud is like so over). Sometimes a penne is just a penne (perhaps depending on the sauce and sausages surrounding it).

I was only quibbling with you, caught it from Pure; sorry.

I'm addicted to ciggies too, only quit once for 5 years about 5 years ago. I enjoy the habit, quite alone among all my friends, family and acquaintances. I tell people I'm one of the 3 people in California who smoke (only in my home and at bus stops).

puff, puff, Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

Ogg: FYI, my fave semioticians, deconstructionists, structuralists, what-have-you, are British or British schooled. I love critical theory, all the post-mod ideas, just for their insightfulness and even incitefulness! They provide interesting ways to look at language and literature (and history, and ...) is all. I in no way prescribe to any one theory the way one might to a political party (though hardly anything is more political than academia).

ta, Perdita

Querida,
I like the current AV.

British language and literary critics in the 1950s turned me away from studying English Literature at University. I couldn't get beyond the idea that all the analysis and search for esoteric meaning was like the medieval argument about how many angels could dance on the point of a pin.

Since I was unlikely to get a degree by stating "The Emperor has no clothes" every time I met semiotics or extreme critical theory I decided to do geography instead. The theories of geography can be just as involved but they do try to fit observed facts instead of being constructed like a house of cards that can be collapsed by flicking a single card.

I did study rhetoric and symbolic logic. Logical analysis of the literary criticism current in the UK in the 1950s seemed ( to a young Og ) to reduce the arguments to a zero once all the qualifiers were removed. I was also unjustifiably afraid that intense study of my favourite authors would destroy the pleasure I found in them.

Enjoy your theories. I remain unconvinced that they provide real answers to communication of ideas and still believe they are based on a flawed notion of a common academic culture. What has a particular meaning for me in the light of my education, culture and life experience can be very difficult to convey to another. Great artists in any field can do it and give the observer a viewpoint of a familiar world that is challenging. I know I can't.

Og

 

[Guest]

Ogg:

Querido, hombre. Glad you appreciate the AV, a UK Brunnhilde and my first, Dame Gywnneth Jones (I presume you knew that of course).

Be assured, I enjoy theory for theory and do not let it keep me from my own heartfelt, even gut level, enjoyment of literature. It's just a game for me at times, like a new camera lens, but I'm mindful of what's really there (now that's an inciteful phrase, eh?)

BTW, I worked for some of the best scientists in the world in my time at Caltech, and found them to be among the most creative persons I'd ever met. It's not for nada they use the words theory, idea and concept very carefully.

Always a pleasure, Perdita

p.s. has the wedding taken place? was your speech a success?

 

[Pure]

Ogg said,

British language and literary critics in the 1950s turned me away from studying English Literature at University. I couldn't get beyond the idea that all the analysis and search for esoteric meaning was like the medieval argument about how many angels could dance on the point of a pin.

Since I was unlikely to get a degree by stating "The Emperor has no clothes" every time I met semiotics or extreme critical theory I decided to do geography instead. The theories of geography can be just as involved but they do try to fit observed facts instead of being constructed like a house of cards that can be collapsed by flicking a single card.

Not so much for semeiotic, but 'cultural studies,' literary and pomo and esoteric feminist theory received that 'flick' a few years back, when a physicist wrote some complex abstruse utter garbage about 'quantum gravity', Irigaray, deconstruction, sent it an esteemed journal of cultural and literary studies, and got it published; very red faces, prolonged explanations by the editors, cries of 'foul' etc.

But isn't pastiche a key concept in pomo thought?

Apparently they couldn't make head nor tail of it, but saw all the key buzzwords, convoluted style of arguement, so decided it must be 'real,' have merit and be worth publishing.

Can't suppy the ref., right this second, but maybe someone can.

J.

 

[Pure]

Reference; pomo liberatory theory hoax

Commentary: [Times Literary Supplement 12-13-96]
What the Sokal hoax ought to teach us

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/boghossian/papers/bog_tls.html

===

Sokals original article:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2.html

"Trangressing the boundaries: Towards a transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity."

Published in _Social Text_ Spring/Summer 1996

[excerpt]

In particular, Madsen and Madsen have recently given a very clear summary of the characteristics of modernist versus postmodernist science. They posit two criteria for a postmodern science:


A simple criterion for science to qualify as postmodern is that it be free from any dependence on the concept of objective truth. By this criterion, for example, the complementarity interpretation of quantum physics due to Niels Bohr and the Copenhagen school is seen as postmodernist.

Clearly, quantum gravity is in this respect an archetypal postmodernist science. Secondly,

The other concept which can be taken as being fundamental to postmodern science is that of essentiality. Postmodern scientific theories are constructed from those theoretical elements which are essential for the consistency and utility of the theory.


Thus, quantities or objects which are in principle unobservable -- such as space-time points, exact particle positions, or quarks and gluons -- ought not to be introduced into the theory. While much of modern physics is excluded by this criterion, quantum gravity again qualifies: in the passage from classical general relativity to the quantized theory, space-time points (and indeed the space-time manifold itself) have disappeared from the theory.

However, these criteria, admirable as they are, are insufficient for a liberatory postmodern science: they liberate human beings from the tyranny of ``absolute truth'' and ``objective reality'', but not necessarily from the tyranny of other human beings. In Andrew Ross' words, we need a science ``that will be publicly answerable and of some service to progressive interests.'' From a feminist standpoint, Kelly Oliver makes a similar argument:

...in order to be revolutionary, feminist theory cannot claim to describe what exists, or, ``natural facts.'' Rather, feminist theories should be political tools, strategies for overcoming oppression in specific concrete situations. The goal, then, of feminist theory, should be to develop strategic theories -- not true theories, not false theories, but strategic theories.



How, then, is this to be done?
In what follows, I would like to discuss the outlines of a liberatory postmodern science on two levels: first, with regard to general themes and attitudes; and second, with regard to political goals and strategies.

One characteristic of the emerging postmodern science is its stress on nonlinearity and discontinuity: this is evident, for example, in chaos theory and the theory of phase transitions as well as in quantum gravity. At the same time, feminist thinkers have pointed out the need for an adequate analysis of fluidity, in particular turbulent fluidity. These two themes are not as contradictory as it might at first appear: turbulence connects with strong nonlinearity, and smoothness/fluidity is sometimes associated with discontinuity (e.g. in catastrophe theory); so a synthesis is by no means out of the question.

 

[Guest]

Esoteric feminist theory?

Esoteric: of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group; limited to a small circle.

Pastor Pure strikes again. Tell me, please, which of the following feminist theoretical areas would you label esoteric? Please look them up before you turn your twatty nose up at them (couldn't help the twat use again, thought this one might keep it genderless).

Feminist - legal theory, criminology, theology, socialism, psychoanalysis and psychology, economics, historical materialism, environmentalism (e.g., ecofeminism), ontology, pedagogy, epistemology, ethics, geography, performing arts, aesthetics.

Feminisms - French, British, American, Latin American (feminista y mujerista), Marxist, Black, essentialist, liberal, separatist, radical, racial, post-modern, lesbian, corporeal, matrixial.

All major scientiific and humanities fields have had their hoaxes. You plant your research as if it's unique to pomos. Most recently the tomb of Jesus' brother is being investigated; I don't know how many cro-magnon-type bones have been falsified; and the authenticity of Shakespeare folios and quartos is always up for grabs in some academic paper.

I really would love to read something genuinely yours, Pure. Can't you be straight and tell us what you think without citing and referencing fuckall?

Perdita

 

[Svenskaflicka]

You wouldn't BELIEVE the sorts of pasta I found in a little shop in Rome! Vagina-shaped macaronis, anyone?

 

[Guest]

Flicka-mou, you certainly have a way of getting to the meaning of sex, haha. Yeah, we've got pussy pasta in SF too. I serve it with a white sauce (can just see you cringing now). Myself, I like those little Japanese mushrooms that look and feel like tiny dicks, lovely sensation with each bite. Yum...

Perdita

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I miss Hubby...

 

[Pure]

Hi Perd,

Just a note from twat nose (I like your complex use of opposite symbols, yonic and phallic, though still puzzled by your love of insulting comparisons to something of real beauty)

[perd:]
[quoting a phrase used by pure]


Esoteric feminist theory?

[quoting somebodies definition:]
Esoteric: of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group; limited to a small circle.
---

Pastor Pure strikes again. Tell me, please, which of the following feminist theoretical areas would you label esoteric? Please look them up before you turn your twatty nose up at them (couldn't help the twat use again, thought this one might keep it genderless).

I believe I already cited Irigaray as an example of an esoteric feminist theory, the 'area' being psychoanalysis and literary studies.

I think perhaps you get me wrong, I kinda liked her when I studied her, "This Sex which is not One" etc. Indeed the title, as I now look at it, presages your fascination with the 'genderless' twat. The twat which is not one.

I happen to love esoteric theories, esp. those of French feminists.

The problem is that, being esoteric, most of those who reference them are not very well understanding them, if not engaging is pure bs--my middle initials, as you know. Sokal was able to exploit the 'progressive' and feminist sympathies of the editors for this reason, as in the following passage.


Luce Irigaray, in her famous article ``Is the Subject of Science Sexed?'', pointed out that

the mathematical sciences, in the theory of wholes [théorie des ensembles], concern themselves with closed and open spaces ... They concern themselves very little with the question of the partially open, with wholes that are not clearly delineated [ensembles flous], with any analysis of the problem of borders [bords] ...

In 1982, when Irigaray's essay first appeared, this was an incisive criticism: differential topology has traditionally privileged the study of what are known technically as ``manifolds without boundary''. However, in the past decade, under the impetus of the feminist critique, some mathematicians have given renewed attention to the theory of ``manifolds with boundary'' [Fr. variétés à bord]. Perhaps not coincidentally, it is precisely these manifolds that arise in the new physics of conformal field theory, superstring theory and quantum gravity.

The pure chutzpah of linking Irigaray's partially open spaces/(w)holes, with differential topology and the boundaries of mathematical manifolds (many-folds) was apparently not detected by the unfortunate editors--both males, iirc.
-------

perd said


I really would love to read something genuinely yours, Pure. Can't you be straight and tell us what you think without citing and referencing fuckall?

I appreciate your interest in my original thoughts. It's just that heated, vituperative debates with academics over factual and theoretical issues are, imo, best handled through referencing to the sources one's discussants are--or should be-- drawing upon.

Loosening of expression is not exactly furthered by your recent invitation --which reminds me a bit of Mlle's tactics--to 'look up' a dozen different feminist subdisciples and subtypes, presumably to begin to bring my hopelessly inadequate knowledge of them to your long-ago attained, depth of scholarship.

Perhaps, sometime, in a kinder gentle setting, the meeting of paradoxes, twat nose and prickly mouth can be arranged.