Where does BDSM fall in the PC spectrum?

[FurryFury]

Yes, and it's so nice to be able to honestly say "I'm tired of this, I'm going to do something new, you're coming with me" instead of running off to find someone in the same tired costume to walk the same tired ground you've marched through for a lifetime because it's where you are the most comfortable. What is a fetish but a rut you dug yourself and can't escape? So many people just tickle their fetishes enough to keep them reasonably happy, they don't really want to break through them, see them for what they are and get to something new. That's scary.

You are very smart and wise, me thinks! Sometimes the changes come at me so fast it's scary. Other times it is a joy. At some point, I think, surely I can't have more revelations, this has to stop or at least slow down. So far, that hasn't happened.

Fury

 

[Recidiva]

You are very smart and wise, me thinks! Sometimes the changes come at me so fast it's scary. Other times it is a joy. At some point, I think, surely I can't have more revelations, this has to stop or at least slow down. So far, that hasn't happened.

Fury

Well, for me it's all about layers. Everyone has motivations that are so mixed together like paint colors that they think everything's brown. There are so many subtle shades that when you take one motivation separately...look at all those colors...

And behind each motivation you've exhausted there is another one, stronger, harder to face, and ohmigod is it pretty and scary. Love that part.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, we just had it once again highlighted this weekend that you do not always know your co-workers as well as might sometimes be assumed. Due to the problems with his laptop, he had borrowed an external hard drive from work to back up his data and reload after repairing everything. While reloading he came across videos someone else had left on there when they had borrowed the drive, and they were of an SM nature involving CBT. Brought a smile to my dial.

Catalina

 

[FurryFury]

Makes me smile too and I needed to smile.

Fury

 

[Dommecile]

I love this discussion. I am impressed with the fact that the questions have even been asked.


I'm not sure I have anything unique to add, except that these questions highlight a few different concepts, imo. First of all, there is a difference between being who you are and continually wearing all aspects of that 'self' externally to inform others. How important is it for any of us to show aspects of self to others, to the public - or at least not to make efforts to conceal them? Costs are different for each of us, based in part on the field in which we operate. Like a few others (Marquis included apparently) I was in a field that has conservative expectations for professional behavior and many professional "codes of conduct". I agree entirely with this from Catalina:

"Unfortunately, attitudes and practices rarely change without people who push to make it happen, even if it is risky to themselves in the interests of making it safer for others....there are multitudes who want and declare change should happen, but few who are willing to do anything about making it happen. I am one who did and though it cost me in some ways, it rewarded me much more in ways that counted IMHO....I get the sense Marquis is also one who gets that and is not quite ready to join the conservatives wholeheartedly for the sake of a dollar. Truth is, if there are so many kinky people out there (and I have no doubt there are), many of those people would respect and hire a lawyer who they saw standing up for his and their rights before one they felt would stand in judgement of them and their kink, and maybe not fight so hard for them on a legal front. "


However, I cannot be responsible for changing society's prejudice against anything and everything that is not well-understood (I think that another poster said something along the same lines . I think that there are a lot of judgements among "vanillas" about bdsm play and lifestyle, based on a lack of understanding of especially the psychological significance. There is a tendency to get caught up in the whole leather/latex/restraints externals (the window-trappings) rather than understand the foundational psychological basis of the desires. That's just my experience. Many vanillas will say they can "understand" liking to be spanked or blindfolded, but can't relate to some of the more in-depth behaviors that really reflect an actual d/s relationship.

Anyway, for my own part, I kind of like being something different than I appear to be....the human mind seems to be fascinated by contradictions and surprises.

-D

 

[gingermango]

Anyway, for my own part, I kind of like being something different than I appear to be....the human mind seems to be fascinated by contradictions and surprises.

Exactly. I love that my nipples are pierced and no one knows it when I walk into court. I love that I once appeared at a session of the United States Supreme Court in front of no less a pair of arch-conservative icons than Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Clarence Thomas with my toenails painted, my legs and groin shaved and wearing a pair of purple flower print satin bikini panties in submission to my Goddess seated in the gallery, with not a soul the wiser but the two of us. That's a thrill that's hard to beat for a submissive.

 

[FurryFury]

Exactly. I love that my nipples are pierced and no one knows it when I walk into court. I love that I once appeared at a session of the United States Supreme Court in front of no less a pair of arch-conservative icons than Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Clarence Thomas with my toenails painted, my legs and groin shaved and wearing a pair of purple flower print satin bikini panties in submission to my Goddess seated in the gallery, with not a soul the wiser but the two of us. That's a thrill that's hard to beat for a submissive.

Niiice!

You go!

I LOVE that!

At work, no one would have a clue what I might be into in my private life. It wouldn't be appropriate. Many there seem to see me as the earthy mothering type. *shrugs* They are drawn to that too as well as the whole librarian thing.

On my off time, depending on where I am going and who I am hanging with, I can look a lot more, um, provocative.

Few know this in my life but how I dress and appear has a lot to do with if I want to fuck anyone in the room. If I do, I take a few extra pains so they will likely be thinking the same damn thing.

But to wear something like you describe there in secret as a male professional, that is delicious!

Cheers to you and your Goddess!

Fury

 

[Miss Diva]

Exactly. I love that my nipples are pierced and no one knows it when I walk into court. I love that I once appeared at a session of the United States Supreme Court in front of no less a pair of arch-conservative icons than Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Clarence Thomas with my toenails painted, my legs and groin shaved and wearing a pair of purple flower print satin bikini panties in submission to my Goddess seated in the gallery, with not a soul the wiser but the two of us. That's a thrill that's hard to beat for a submissive.

Now you are making me wonder what the justices wear underneath the robes.

 

[gingermango]

Niiice!
But to wear something like you describe there in secret as a male professional, that is delicious!

It really is delicious - the dichotomy between what I appear to be (and in fact am, most of the time) and what I am inside and in addition to what I appear to be is an incredible thrill. Everytime I go through security at a courthouse I wonder if my nipple rings will set off the metal detectors. I wonder what I will say if I ever piss off a guard enough to get myself strip-searched - will they like the bra she's picked out for me to wear, and what will they say to everyone else?

The fear is palpable, as is the thrill. Going out wearing a collar and lipstick to show my submission doesn't "work" in any kind of BDSM sense without the audience of BDSM-savvy people to appreciate it, most significantly my Goddess. Now, if she tells me to go to the makeup counter and buy a new shade of eye shadow, I'd do it, and stammer out all the lame excuses for the counter girl (or tell her the truth if Goddess were to command it), but that works because it is NOT my job I'm displaying my inner self for - instead it's something separate and special between us that we share only with one another and those very selected people we elect to bring into our secret world.

Cheers to you and your Goddess!

Fury

Thank you very much. We try to live our lives and be true to ourselves where it matters - in our hearts and souls.

 

[Dommecile]

Thank you very much. We try to live our lives and be true to ourselves where it matters - in our hearts and souls.

Amen.

I do think some of us have the interest and strength to push the envelope of public understanding and acceptance, though. Perhaps Marquis is one of these.....

-D

 

[bridgeburner]

I think it's also important to note that being "The BDSM Lawyer" could far more easily mean representing BDSM clients and interests than showing up to court with your clerk in a Geek suit on a leash. ;->

-B

 

[gingermango]

I think it's also important to note that being "The BDSM Lawyer" could far more easily mean representing BDSM clients and interests than showing up to court with your clerk in a Geek suit on a leash. ;->

-B

Sure. The problem is that there are far too few "BDSM clients and interests" to keep most lawyers busy (and thus making a living), as compared to run of the mill wills, contract disputes, injury claims, divorces, et cetera, most of which is needed by people who are confirmed vanilla. So even the public rep as "the BDSM lawyer" can damage your practice, regardless of whether you've got a Gimp answering the phone or a secretary typing in bondage mitts and a posture collar. For a conservative profession in a conservative field that only works to the extent that it does because it's darn predictable, most of us find it's a good idea to save the unpredictable personal stuff for our private lives.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I dunno, those I know of, including myself, did not go about dressed in kink style for work, but then it also is not who we are in the lifestyle either. Dressing the part does not overly interest me in either context, living it does. As Dommecile touched on, it is not about shouting from the rooftops what you are into and support (or dressing in leather for work which I am sure Marquis was not suggesting either), but when it comes up as it did in my line of work, it is about not attempting to do a major cover up, especially to the extent I have seen some do as in joining those who condemn the very community they belong to. I found I was placed in situations where discussions of such matters were raised by vanillas who acted and spoke as an authority, but didn't have a clue and were spreading false stereotypes and myths about the areas I had interests and knowledge in.

I could not then stand by and keep my mouth shut, or agree with and back them, so I took the option to educate and inform from an informed viewpoint. As time went on some people became aware I was also involved in some way in these communities and knew what I was talking about. I also had to make choices to stand up and defend clients right to service when my superiors and peers would have shown them the door because of their lifestyle choices. I found it was not even a matter of outing yourself when it was not in the clients best interests for you to do so. The beauty of being in these lines of work, and being known to have an inquiring mind, is you can always pass it off if questioned by mentioning you have researched the area because of study requirements, case requirements, research, or just curiosity with an eye to how you would work with such a client in a client friendly approach. It is amazing how easily that is accepted without question when you are someone to look into many areas out of interest. Interestingly though, your clients pick up on the truth in 5 seconds and respect you for it, and refer others to you (professionals and clients), both vanilla and lifestyle....and why vanilla?...because like all of us, they have vanilla friends too, usually ones who are supportive and respecting of their right to choice and like to know they can trust the professional they are placing themselves in the hands of.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

What Catalina said. It's not like I'm shouting it from the rooftops daily. The clothes I have on in my current av are those I wore out to brunch, nothing really insane, even though my love of big black boots doesn't move with the fashion times. (they're out don't you know.)

It wasn't for lack of being able to blend in to a social life that revolves around golf, kids, hunting season, and bunko night that I realized I had to get out of corporate. It was for lack of any desire whatsoever to do so.

I play and mix well enough with most people to be able to sell them things. That's really the gold standard by which this society measures functionality, if you think about it.

I've learned two things after hitting 30. 1. You don't need as much money as you think you need to be happy. 2. working for yourself is a viable way to make a living. I'll take a life of scraping by where *I* get to write the narrative over anything else at the moment.

 

[Dommecile]

And Netzach....where DID you get those *lovely* boots, anyway?


-D

 

[Dommecile]

but when it comes up as it did in my line of work, it is about not attempting to do a major cover up, especially to the extent I have seen some do as in joining those who condemn the very community they belong to. I found I was placed in situations where discussions of such matters were raised by vanillas who acted and spoke as an authority, but didn't have a clue and were spreading false stereotypes and myths about the areas I had interests and knowledge in.

I could not then stand by and keep my mouth shut, or agree with and back them, so I took the option to educate and inform from an informed viewpoint

With this I agree 100%. I have experienced similar situations. I think that there is a wide range of knowledge/experience/interest level among "vanillas" regarding bdsm 'culture' and also an unfortunately wide range of false stereotypes. To me the tendency to need a 'major cover up' is probably much more about denying or failing to own and be well with those parts of self that one is helping deride in favor of the perception of public approval. It's a loss of personal integrity in many ways to do this, even moreso than a failure of social responsibility.

I don't know, maybe this was a little of what Marquis was asking when he mentioned the reaction of others to his walking in the lobby of his building while dressed in latex - are there times we feel a choice is upon us between <the maintenance of personal integrity> and <ability to function in society effectively>?

-D

 

[Netzach]

And Netzach....where DID you get those *lovely* boots, anyway?


-D

Professional Dominas local 183 - membership has its advantages.

Gift, so thoughtful.

Fluevog.com.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Professional Dominas local 183 - membership has its advantages.

Gift, so thoughtful.

Fluevog.com.

Do so love those boots!! On the other note, F was researching a little a few weeks back on the Professional Dominas in The Netherlands and though I can't remember the number he found on one register, I think it was in excess of 200. There was one interesting lady who was 6'2", 300 lb, and had pics of her carrying male subs around slung over her shoulder like rag dolls.....think she either inspires complete devotion or sheer terror for many of them.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

Professional Dominas local 183 - membership has its advantages.

Gift, so thoughtful.

Fluevog.com.

I gotta agree . . . way cool.

 

[bridgeburner]

Ginger,

Do you have any idea how much money is made in the San Fernando Valley alone by attorneys who represent adult businesses almost exclusively? Many millions of dollars. I doubt any of them is in the least concerned about the vanilla business that might not come their way. Besides, if attorney's were really all that worried about what the public at large thought of them they'd have become firemen instead.

More and more the subtext of your argument seems to be that only vanillas and fully closeted kinksters should have access to competent legal representation. What's that about?

-B

 

[gingermango]

Ginger,

Do you have any idea how much money is made in the San Fernando Valley alone by attorneys who represent adult businesses almost exclusively? Many millions of dollars. I doubt any of them is in the least concerned about the vanilla business that might not come their way.

Do you realize how miniscule a percentage of lawyers there are working in the San Fernando Valley as compared to the rest of the profession working in the rest of the county? Do you realize how miniscule a percentage adult businesses represent compared to the economy at large in most areas? Besides which, equating lawyers representing strip clubs and adult bookstores in what are essentially zoning ordnance cases dressed up in First Amendment drag with lawyers representing the GLBT and BDSM community at large in a wide variety of legal needs is specious at best. The average person needs a lawyer for the same reasons, regardless of whether they are gay, straight, wear panties or a collar out in public: they need wills, they get married or divorced, they get hurt in car accidents and on the job, they get medical claims denied by their health insurance, etc. For the most part, none of this has one damned thing to do with sexual orientation, kinkiness or what they wear out in public.

Besides, if attorney's were really all that worried about what the public at large thought of them they'd have become firemen instead.

Bull-fucking-shit. Nice ad hominem, by the way. That comment shows you don't know fuck-all about real lawyers and the legal system, nor why most kids go to law school.

More and more the subtext of your argument seems to be that only vanillas and fully closeted kinksters should have access to competent legal representation. What's that about?
-B

What's up with that is projection on your part. There is no subtext to my argument. Such as it is, my argument is that gender, sexual orientation and identity, kinkiness, etc. has nothing to do with one's need for legal representation, but that lawyers who wish to maintain a professional reputation and standing must adhere to certain conventions, at least publicly, if they wish to remain effective. Failing to do so in most communities will render them substantially less effective, not only to the vanillas who will make up the majority of their clientele, but also to the very "fringe" communities they are trying to reach out to and cultivate as a source of business.

The fact is, the legal world, by and large, is NOT New York, San Francisco, Chicago or even Atlanta or Miami. It's Des Moines, is Lincoln, Nebraska, it's Chattanooga, TN, it's Boise, Idaho and tens of thousand smaller, regional little worlds.

 

[bridgeburner]

Ginger, pull those lacey panties out of your ass and take a deep breath. You've been way too earnest about this from the very start which is why you missed the joke, but if levity doesn't sit well with you I'll just put it plain for you:

Marquis is an individual considering possibilities for his personal future. It's hardly idiotic, naive or misguided to seek a specialized area of the law. Yes, the vast majority of lawyers do routine work in small-town America just as the vast majority of doctors are general practitioners in those same towns. What is useful advice for a general population of prospective lawyers doesn't necessarily apply in every specific case.

Do you realize how miniscule a percentage of lawyers there are working in the San Fernando Valley as compared to the rest of the profession working in the rest of the county? Do you realize how miniscule a percentage adult businesses represent compared to the economy at large in most areas?

Is there some law that says the Marquis can't move wherever he wants and pursue whatever kind of career he wishes? He's young, he's single, he's childless and has no aged parents to care for. He's about as free to choose his path as anyone ever gets. Oh, and he's not a half-wit. "Hey, y'all, I've come to Dogpatch to be the BDSM Lawyer. What're the pointy hoods and torches for? Are we having a pinata party?"

Besides which, equating lawyers representing strip clubs and adult bookstores in what are essentially zoning ordnance cases dressed up in First Amendment drag with lawyers representing the GLBT and BDSM community at large in a wide variety of legal needs is specious at best.

Except that I didn't make that comparison, but I admire your use of specious nonetheless.

The average person needs a lawyer for the same reasons, regardless of whether they are gay, straight, wear panties or a collar out in public: they need wills, they get married or divorced, they get hurt in car accidents and on the job, they get medical claims denied by their health insurance, etc. For the most part, none of this has one damned thing to do with sexual orientation, kinkiness or what they wear out in public.

And what exactly have I said to contradict any of this?

Bull-fucking-shit. Nice ad hominem, by the way. That comment shows you don't know fuck-all about real lawyers and the legal system, nor why most kids go to law school.

Apparently I greatly underestimated their capacity for humor. Next time I'll drown it in smirky emoticons so the legal whiz doesn't miss the joke.

What's up with that is projection on your part. There is no subtext to my argument.

I'm sure you believe that's so, but what I keep seeing you say is that if you want to be a successful attorney you must protect your lily-white reputation at any cost. How exactly do you maintain a lily-white reputation if you represent kinky clients? Or sex workers? Or pornographers?

You don't.

So, following your argument to its logical conclusion those people can and should only be represented by attorneys who don't care about their reputations and thereby undermine their own effectiveness with the world at large.

The fact is, the legal world, by and large, is NOT New York, San Francisco, Chicago or even Atlanta or Miami. It's Des Moines, is Lincoln, Nebraska, it's Chattanooga, TN, it's Boise, Idaho and tens of thousand smaller, regional little worlds.

And if the Marquis had no control over where he might eventually practice law then that would matter a great deal more than it does. The point of a vocation is to do something that inspires and challenges you and keeps you interested. If all you want is to make sure you can work wherever the wind happens to blow you then all you really want is a job. Just because there's no work for plastic surgeons in Dogpatch doesn't mean nobody should study to be one.

-B

 

[Netzach]

The fact is, the legal world, by and large, is NOT New York, San Francisco, Chicago or even Atlanta or Miami. It's Des Moines, is Lincoln, Nebraska, it's Chattanooga, TN, it's Boise, Idaho and tens of thousand smaller, regional little worlds.

I was as real a person in NYC as I am in Minneapolis as I was in Lake Wobegon. It's true that people don't only live in urban centers, but the idea that "real people like you and me don't live in those big city places" is creepy and divisive.

 

[gingermango]

Marquis is an individual considering possibilities for his personal future. It's hardly idiotic, naive or misguided to seek a specialized area of the law. Yes, the vast majority of lawyers do routine work in small-town America just as the vast majority of doctors are general practitioners in those same towns. What is useful advice for a general population of prospective lawyers doesn't necessarily apply in every specific case.

Not at all. But I will tell you that unless you know a lot more than you let on through your posts in this thread, you know very little about marketing legal services, nor about the market itself. Such specialization, especially for a new lawyer just starting out, is essentially unheard of. Why? Because there's no way to make a living with such a small niche market. And while I don't actively target that same audience, I do know a good deal about marketing a legal practice in general.

Is there some law that says the Marquis can't move wherever he wants and pursue whatever kind of career he wishes? He's young, he's single, he's childless and has no aged parents to care for. He's about as free to choose his path as anyone ever gets. Oh, and he's not a half-wit. "Hey, y'all, I've come to Dogpatch to be the BDSM Lawyer. What're the pointy hoods and torches for? Are we having a pinata party?"

Only the laws of supply and demand. You think he's the only kinky lawyer in a major metropolitan area? The only one to decide to represent unusual, non-mainstream interests? Not by a long shot. But by the same token, those that are already in that market have earned market share, not had it given to them. Which is why such an extreme specialization for one starting out is career suicide, aside from wearing latex out and about on the town (which is what he does already as a law student).

Except that I didn't make that comparison, but I admire your use of specious nonetheless.

"Adult businessess in the San Fernando Valley" are much like adult businesses everywhere plus you add in the film industry. Despite the money THAT end rakes in, it's still basically IP law and will be handled by boutique IP law firms and IP departments at mega-firms, the way the majority of IP law is handled everywhere. The fact that the films may involve flogging, dog collars and/or blow jobs doesn't change things much. The rest of it is more or less zoning law. And the fact is that those lawyers aren't going to be out and about in the BDSM community as players, despite their representation of adult businesses.

Apparently I greatly underestimated their capacity for humor. Next time I'll drown it in smirky emoticons so the legal whiz doesn't miss the joke.

Except, Brainiac, it's not a joke to lawyers or people who (however idealistically and naively) think they're trying to help people as lawyers. And believe it or not, most lawyers do believe that to a large extent, especially when they're young and not jaded.

I'm sure you believe that's so, but what I keep seeing you say is that if you want to be a successful attorney you must protect your lily-white reputation at any cost. How exactly do you maintain a lily-white reputation if you represent kinky clients? Or sex workers? Or pornographers?

You represent them but you don't go out in latex publicly except in huge, anonymous metropoli.

You don't.

Says you.

Yes, you do, but you do it carefully and within in the conventions and norms of the profession, at least publicly.

So, following your argument to its logical conclusion those people can and should only be represented by attorneys who don't care about their reputations and thereby undermine their own effectiveness with the world at large.

To some extent, perhaps. More realistically, you do like many others have mentioned in this thread: you present one aspect of yourself publicly and the rest you keep to yourself and carefully chosen friends. IF you want to be successful and build your practice beyond a very small niche, at least.

And if the Marquis had no control over where he might eventually practice law then that would matter a great deal more than it does. The point of a vocation is to do something that inspires and challenges you and keeps you interested. If all you want is to make sure you can work wherever the wind happens to blow you then all you really want is a job. Just because there's no work for plastic surgeons in Dogpatch doesn't mean nobody should study to be one.

-B

As I've said above, where you think you'll end up at 25 may not be where you actually end up at 30 or 35.

 

[gingermango]

I was as real a person in NYC as I am in Minneapolis as I was in Lake Wobegon. It's true that people don't only live in urban centers, but the idea that "real people like you and me don't live in those big city places" is creepy and divisive.

And that's not what I said at all. What I've said throughout this thread is that the rest of a lawyer's clientele may make the choice to find alternate representation based on that lawyer's choice in his/her other clients. Criminal lawyers see this all the time, part of the reason they charge the fees that they do.