Why aren't male subs taken more seriously?

[oisin_sub]

Its actually much easier for me to get to know gay/bi male Doms than it is for me to get to know Dommes very well...
This could be a combination of the fact that I never really initiate any flirting or chatting with anybody, the fact that I'm more shy around girls than boys, and quite possibly, a chance that there may be fewer Dommes about than gay/bi Doms....

hmm hmm, I must think on this, 4 AM and no sleep makes Aeroil.... something-leepy...

I totally agree with you about that. But then i never initiate chat sessions either . Possibly due to shyness .

I think the main cause of it is that theres just far less dommes. With such a high population of subs its logical to think there will be more assholes among them, the dommes get weary of all the useless messages and get pickier about what they read.
I can understand how they feel to an extent some doms can be awfully rude .

 

[Ebonyfire]

Fuck that ... i'm shooting for five stars.

Damn there is a limerick in there somewhere!

 

[Xelebes]

*putters around in clown car*

 

[saw_man1]

I "see" things differently I think.
Eb

You see things rightly, I think.

 

[PorcelainDoll]

Re: Life isn't fair.

Life isn't fair.

Simple truth.

It boils down to social conditioning, social Darwinism and the phenomenon isn't limited to male subs, as others have posted. Males have the tougher row to hoe in some regards. As one comedian said, "to get a date, men have to be James Bond. Women have to do their hair." I'm not saying it's easy for women, either. You've got this sea of assholes, all vying for your attention. Imagine feeling like a Porterhouse Steak being dangled in front of a bunck of starving pit bulls. You may really be looking for a cute Shetland Sheepdog, but such a critter won't go near the feeding frenzy of the bigger stronger nastier dogs. And finally, you're just fed up with it, and anyone you don't know personally gets shut down fast and hard.

Which brings me back to the hard time males have. We've got to be persistent to get around all that drama, yet if we're persistent, how do we avoid being another starving pit bull (asshole)? Certain things help, like being literate, and not assuming any kind of familiarity (sexual or otherwise), but that still puts you at one guppy in the sea. Here on Lit, check out the Asshat Awards thread for some good samples of what some folks deal with. On Bondage.com, about once every other week, someone's bitching about males, at one end or the other of the spectrum. They even have a cute term for it over there: Horny Net Geek, or HNG for short.

So you've got a lot of competition for an extremely limited commodity, and a lot of that competition casts you in an unfavorable light before you've even begun. In short, you're shafted before you start, and you've gotta dig yourself out of a hole everyone else has dug.

Them's the facts, and they're not likely to change. Bitching never got anything done. Sure, it sucks, but it is what it is.

Great post.. totally said what I was thinking.

 

[Pure]

what's wrong

let me have another go at this:

in Masoch's "Venus in Furs", the character Severin is the archetypal male sub. The 'sub', I'd say, was virtually *invented* by that book.

Wanda is the Venus figure, and she's cold and capricious.
Severin tries repeatedly to get her to enslave him, professing great love for her and that it would fulfill his love to be cruelly used. He eventually signs a contract giving up all rights except to be her slave; he (pre) signs a suicide note, at her request.

She says several times, suppose i fall in love with someone else, can you handle it? Supppose i fuck someone else? She is *hesitant* to become his owner.

He waffles but generally says yes, for after all those are cruel acts (fucking another while he waits as her servant downstairs).

On more than one occasion, though, she *does* what she envisioned, AND he splits; the first big split, he sends her a letter saying the deal is off, because she's unworthy, common.

On the last occasion, she had her lover tie S to a pillar, and whip him.
Whereupon S splits forever. Wanda says, something like, 'you are cured.'

In sum, the usual male sub (the 90%) is theatrical, manipulative, demanding of crucial things like the domme's love and continual presence. his presentation of himself as loving cruelty is false. his promises are false, paper thin.

he's quite ready to split if she ceases to treat him, in a sense, royally, and as HE wants. he's picky in that he's fine to be beaten if it's by her, paying lots of attention, but if it's by someone else, he freaks, tears up any agreement, and splits. (if he were a woman, we'd say he's a 'princess sub').

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh Pure, don't tell me you are joning the group of thinkers which believe every idea and pursuit came from the pages of a book or the screen originally?!! I always wonder if that is the case, where the writer got the original idea if we need a book to introduce it to us. I am sure submission and submissives existed before Venus in Furs was written.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I don't know where you're getting the 90 percent figure.

90 percent of men, definitely.

90 percent of male subs, I'd say significantly more than 10 percent are past diva stage and more subtle.

 

[Misspeyton]

Is it because male subs are looked at as just guys looking to get their rocks off,

I believe this would the the answer... Most men I have run into in my experience have been posers looking for a fast way to get off, but doesn't want to put in the serious side of the lifestyle. Of course each person is different in what they are looking for, but I need someone that is 24/7 and I don't play online. So people are instantly turned off by that... MALES in particular. Female subs are quite ok with it if they are real.

SO why aren't they taken seriously. The Rotten few have screwed it up for the masses.
Mistress Peyton

 

[bronntanas]

The problem is that the obnoxious poser twits who just want to get their rocks off are attention whores. They make such a spectacle of themselves that the rest of us fade into the background.

The 90 percent seems high to me, too. (source please?) I don't have any sort of official stats available, but going off the other male subs I know I'd say it's about 50 percent.

 

[Pure]

cat,

yes i suspect 'subs' (erotic slaves), at least male ones, were invented by Masoch, who lived somewhat that way, in a series of dramatic liaisons. no doubt he had classical personages in mind, i.e., males in mythology who get cruelly treated, eg Adonis; also Xtian martyrs like St. Sebastian.

the female he imagined is Venus, a sort of cruel love goddess of whom there have been several (Astarte, etc.). serving a goddess is probably an old idea.

he expressed the concept of erotic slavery in Venus in Furs (1870), so the book gave expression to his life and maybe to an idea floating around Europe at that time.

do you know any male 'subs' before Masoch's time? (i don't mean bottoms or pain lovers.) in real life or in books?

in Sade novels there are sex slaves, i.e., captives that get raped, but this isn't much of thrill for them.

--

it's probably meaningless to give a percent; certainly most self said male subs aren't very 'subby' at all, or if so, are like Severin (drama princesses).

 

[Aeroil]

Haa, Pure, how many homosexuals were there in 1870? Surely there were barely any.

It was not something that was considered proper in any way for a male to be the submissive one, hence, submissive males would never pursue any path of that sort.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I don't know where you're getting the 90 percent figure.

90 percent of men, definitely.

90 percent of male subs, I'd say significantly more than 10 percent are past diva stage and more subtle.

Again I agree.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Is it because male subs are looked at as just guys looking to get their rocks off

I really don't think so. The potential to get their rocks off is very low if you are in a dialogue with a Female Dominant who likes skin to skin.

Now I believe that online domination is more conducive to the wanking mentality.

Eb

 

[Lilee]

There are already a ton of good answers on this thread, but thought I’d give it a shot at answering your original question. “Why aren’t male subs taken more seriously?”

Here’s a suggestion for an experiment to answer your own question. Pick any random BDSM site with chat/message boards/personals and log in as Mistress Pickaname. Wait ten seconds and see what happens.

I guarantee you will get:

The groveler: “Mistress please let me be your slave. I will do anything you say!” (why the hell should I, I don’t know you, you don’t know me. Why should I have any interest in someone that easy)

The demander: “Mistress I would love to fill in the blank with any fetish here.” (boy, I could care less about what you want.)

The wanking horn dog: “Mistress I’m so hard right now, please let me cum.” (If anyone’s permission will do why do you have any value to me at all?)

This is why you will find the majority Dommes are jaded about the seriousness of a male sub. That explains the why of it, here’s a suggestion about what you can DO about it…

Learn all you can about yourself and your submissive side. Know what your value is, if you have no value don’t expect anyone to want you. Be honest. Be original (easier said then done). Get over the inequality, it’s just part of life and has nothing to do with whether you’ll be taken ‘seriously’. Most of all, be patient. Hope this helps, happy discoveries to you.

 

[Aeroil]

CC did that, several times, she found it amusing

 

[Xelebes]

Oh Pure, don't tell me you are joning the group of thinkers which believe every idea and pursuit came from the pages of a book or the screen originally?!! I always wonder if that is the case, where the writer got the original idea if we need a book to introduce it to us. I am sure submission and submissives existed before Venus in Furs was written.

Catalina

Duc d'Oyonnax - the masochist answer to Marquis de Sade. However he did not write his exploits or fantasies down, but he was noted for having the largest collection of women's lingerie in the entire world at the time and would often have himself taken away with young strapping officers.

 

[SilencedNeeds]

 

[lord_bob]

There are already a ton of good answers on this thread, but thought I’d give it a shot at answering your original question. “Why aren’t male subs taken more seriously?”

Here’s a suggestion for an experiment to answer your own question. Pick any random BDSM site with chat/message boards/personals and log in as Mistress Pickaname. Wait ten seconds and see what happens.

I guarantee you will get:

The groveler: “Mistress please let me be your slave. I will do anything you say!” (why the hell should I, I don’t know you, you don’t know me. Why should I have any interest in someone that easy)

The demander: “Mistress I would love to fill in the blank with any fetish here.” (boy, I could care less about what you want.)

The wanking horn dog: “Mistress I’m so hard right now, please let me cum.” (If anyone’s permission will do why do you have any value to me at all?)

This is why you will find the majority Dommes are jaded about the seriousness of a male sub. That explains the why of it, here’s a suggestion about what you can DO about it…

Learn all you can about yourself and your submissive side. Know what your value is, if you have no value don’t expect anyone to want you. Be honest. Be original (easier said then done). Get over the inequality, it’s just part of life and has nothing to do with whether you’ll be taken ‘seriously’. Most of all, be patient. Hope this helps, happy discoveries to you.

I do very much agree with this and have my own answer

I have noted that there a lot of men on here who come in completely new, declaring themselves doms, will answer ads by female subs, pretty much asking for the same things that have been described above, however they're answered because these men dont want a proper dom/sub relationship, they want a quick and easy cyberfuck
on the other hand, while there are the male subs asking for this, Ive seen less dommes around, and those I have seen are ones that do want a proper relationship, so dont even bother to answer these ads

 

[eroticspank]

There are alot of good thoughts and posts on this thread!

Here is my two cents worth.

I really believe that many men are not really sure what is means to be a sub! Not that I am the expert on this, I am certainly not but everyone has different ideas on what a sub or Domme should or should not do.

Yes there are probably some guys out there that read a D/S book or two and think if they meet a Domme she will tie them to the bed and fuck them for hours...And just about every personal ad site has guys just looking for sex with no striings. So I can see why some women are wary at first of so called male subs. It is so much more than sex it involves truly giving yourself to your Domme. Totally!

It is so much more than.....You like spanking too? Okay lets meet!!

Too me D/S play involves more than phyiscal but mental/emotional as well. So I think it is important and even necessary for the Dommes out there to be picky. When you have that connection with your sub it is awesome and more than worth the wait in choosing a sub.

As a man I found orignally it was hard for me to let the emotional part of my submissiveness come out. But when I felt safe, trusted my Domme, and let it flow it was amazing!

The Domme also has an emotional part in the D/S relationship and she gives herself too! So again I say she should be picky with us because it is a big investment for her too.

my two cents

ES

 

[Pure]

great posting, lilee! note to lord_bob, eroticsp

in terms of men, who, in cyberland present as 'sub', my figure of 90% bogus may be too low!

lord bob, you have a good point. the phoney male sub phenomenon is a subset of the phoney male kinkster phenomenon.
AND that's a subset of the phoney male horndog phenomenon (say anything that gets you laid, or, is cyberland, gets you hottalk long enough for a JO).

eroticspank, that's a good point about relationships, and of course there's a general problem of men wanting [free] sex with no strings, which is mostly--not always-- hard to come by. BUT there's a further complication i mentioned in my post above, about Masoch. the male sub, that rare bird, OTOH, may desire a indisoluble permanent bond ("be your slave, loved by you [who will love no other, and fuck no other] forever.")

yet at least some dommes, given their spunk, are not going to promise to tie themselves down 'to death do us part.' and even if "love" is promised, they are NOT going to promise monogamy (sexual exclusivenes), because they want to keep some sexual options open (as prerogative, if nothing else).

given this, the usual male self styled sub is going to have to lie and evade, just as Masoch did "No, of course you can do what you want; just keep me at your side as slave." Which is a load of BS, as Masoch showed--he took off when the female got involved elsewhere.

it is an unusual male ego that can be scrubbing dishes downstairs----- while the dom(me) is upstairs making love to another. hence the usual male 'sub' who promises such, is either insincere or fooling himself.

 

[eroticspank]

in terms of men, who, in cyberland present as 'sub', my figure of 90% bogus may be too low!

lord bob, you have a good point. the phoney male sub phenomenon is a subset of the phoney male kinkster phenomenon.
AND that's a subset of the phoney male horndog phenomenon (say anything that gets you laid, or, is cyberland, gets you hottalk long enough for a JO).

eroticspank, that's a good point about relationships, and of course there's a general problem of men wanting [free] sex with no strings, which is mostly--not always-- hard to come by. BUT there's a further complication i mentioned in my post above, about Masoch. the male sub, that rare bird, OTOH, may desire a indisoluble permanent bond ("be your slave, loved by you [who will love no other, and fuck no other] forever.")

yet at least some dommes, given their spunk, are not going to promise to tie themselves down 'to death do us part.' and even if "love" is promised, they are NOT going to promise monogamy (sexual exclusivenes), because they want to keep some sexual options open (as prerogative, if nothing else).

given this, the usual male self styled sub is going to have to lie and evade, just as Masoch did "No, of course you can do what you want; just keep me at your side as slave." Which is a load of BS, as Masoch showed--he took off when the female got involved elsewhere.

it is an unusual male ego that can be scrubbing dishes downstairs----- while the dom(me) is upstairs making love to another. hence the usual male 'sub' who promises such, is either insincere or fooling himself.

Well there certainly is a lot to think about! That is why it is so important to be honest with yourself first and your Domme and discuss it with her.

I certainly cant see myself asking a Domme for monogamy but that is just me. In fact I rarely think of my Domme as a sex partner. I am into just seeing what develops and go from there. It might develop into something monogamous but it may not. Communication is so important between partners.

Actually I dont see sex in D/S play just control. I surrender it to her and she takes it. Yes there has to be sexual attraction, teasing, and sexual thoughts etc.. But in the relationships I have had with women who enjoyed being a Domme in the bedroom, we used our D/S play as foreplay for our sexual satisfaction.

And yes I have talked with several Dommes who cant have a relationship with a sub or at least certian subs. Not their kind of man etc but they can be their Domme----hence the monogamy issue above you mentioned.

Once again communication is important here.

ES

 

[nytemist]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the great responses. There was not only a lot of really good advice in them, but also some really interesting, even philosophical things to think about.

I was feeling discouraged when I made the initial post. Not from any prejudice I'd personally encountered, I haven't become involved enough yet for that, but just because it seemed like pursuing bdsm as a new male sub was going to be a pretty awkward thing with a lot of obstacles to overcome. And maybe it will be. But these responses were really helpful and encouraging and had a lot of good advice plus offered a lot to think about, so thank you.

 

[Ebonyfire]

it is an unusual male ego that can be scrubbing dishes downstairs----- while the dom(me) is upstairs making love to another. hence the usual male 'sub' who promises such, is either insincere or fooling himself.

In actuality only here at Lit what you say is true. I know for a fact that it happens much more than you think.

The slaves I know are not intimidated by sex. They would rather a Mistress have sex with someone else than be replaced by another in all things.

Eb

 

[nameless0]

In actuality only here at Lit what you say is true. I know for a fact that it happens much more than you think.

The slaves I know are not intimidated by sex. They would rather a Mistress have sex with someone else than be replaced by another in all things.

Eb

as a male sub, i second that