Why aren't male subs taken more seriously?

[Pure]

pure said,

//it is an unusual male ego that can be scrubbing dishes downstairs----- while the dom(me) is upstairs making love to another. hence the usual male 'sub' who promises such, is either insincere or fooling himself.
//

Eb said, In actuality only here at Lit what you say is true. I know for a fact that it happens much more than you think.

Good point Eb. I'm aware of this exception. It's somewhat nontraditional, as compared with the steamy sex of Venus in Furs.

I gather you make it clear from the beginning that a sub is not going to have sexual access to you and that you are in no sense to be his lover. I don't know how much, if any, masturbation you allow under your direction or in your presence; if you do, then there is some sexual bonding, I suspect, and certainly outlet.

I have no doubt that, as you say, 'candidates' are not rare. OTOH, I suspect that this exclusion takes out the vast majority of self labeled male subs.

 

[snowy ciara]

it is an unusual male ego that can be scrubbing dishes downstairs----- while the dom(me) is upstairs making love to another. hence the usual male 'sub' who promises such, is either insincere or fooling himself.

Unusual yes, mythical no. I've been one of the people upstairs (or at least in the bedroom) with the Domme while said sub was cleaning the kitchen. After which, he read in the living room until it was time to take me home. The other two persons in the bedroom were having some HAWT kinky sex while I was taking the pictures. And the dishwasher/chauffer didn't even get to peak at the pics.

 

[RJMasters]

There sure are a lot of interesting observations being taken from this thread. The one I see hiding the background in many of the posts is largely a sterotype mindset about the gender prioritatization of sex. I.E. the idea that sex is higher on the priority list for men than for women. Women seem to have a much larger freedom in being able to slot sex in their list of priorities where as men are seen as helpless to their cocks. This sterotype seems to transcend dominance or submission as well based on some of the views expressed of male Doms and mle submissives. What I find interesting is the influence this has upon how a Domme exerts her dominance as opposed to how a Dom exerts his dominance. This in turn effecting a bias as to what is or what is not acceptable behavior for a male submissive. Where a female submissive might be encouraged in her sexuality, a male submissive may be discouraged as a means to take away that part of the male in them or more correctly said "to make sure it is clearly understood that part of the male will always be secondary to what the Domme deems a priority".

I have often thought about the balance of Dommes having multiple submissives both male and female....to Doms having multiple submissives both male and female. It is interesting to me in my observations that Dommes often have multiple submissives where the green-eye monster does not seem to come into play "as much" as a Dom with multple female submissives. Perhaps there is a key of understanding buried here.

Female submissives do not share well, most not at all.. You may find some who are willing to allow physical sexual activity(with others), so long as they are not required to share other aspects of the relationship which they deem more of a priority with their Dom.

Is there any truth that men and women view sexuality differently? If so, I wonder how many disntinctions between how Dommes and Doms exert their dominace, can be traced backed to this...and as a result of that also look at how that in turn affects male and female submissives? Or looking at it from the bottom up...if men and women view sexuality differently, what distinctions or explanations can then be understood. For male submissives it appears they are required to supress their sexuality at least to the degree it is surrendured to the Domme's will, where as female submissives are required to surrendure their sexuality by elevating it to almost a slut's level to meet the Dom's will. Notice how in both cases the word surrendure is used...interesting.

If you do not see the gender sterotype as being valid, but see this as an individual thing, then I am fine with that. I am not making statements of fact as much as I am makeing genral observations based on personal experience as well as what I see expressed from others.

 

[saw_man1]

If you do not see the gender sterotype as being valid, but see this as an individual thing, then I am fine with that. I am not making statements of fact as much as I am makeing genral observations based on personal experience as well as what I see expressed from others.

I'm not sure I would use the term gender stereotype however there does seem to be other activities that are gender oriented or intensive in addition to what you addressed.
Daddy/daughter rather than Mommy/son
Cuckolding
Hot wife sharing
I wish I had more time to flesh these thoughts out but I don’t. Damn job.

 

[JMohegan]

There sure are a lot of interesting observations being taken from this thread. The one I see hiding the background in many of the posts is largely a sterotype mindset about the gender prioritatization of sex. I.E. the idea that sex is higher on the priority list for men than for women.

Very interesting post, RJ. I understand why you wrote it here, but the topic in general seems worthy of its own thread. In any case, my responses would be off topic on this one.

 

[blue kat]

Female submissives do not share well, most not at all.. You may find some who are willing to allow physical sexual activity(with others), so long as they are not required to share other aspects of the relationship which they deem more of a priority with their Dom.

Is there any truth that men and women view sexuality differently?

Actually, many female sub missives DO share well; I've found they share better than many male subs. Amber and bronn get along well enough that they often socialize together without me. Case in point, they're going to Toronto to see Lion King without me. And I'm fine with that. I took bronn to the Stratford festival this summer to see some Shakespeare, and all amber said was "can you get <<<<insert detailed description of a Maid Marian dress here>>>> at the costumers please?" (Yeah we did and she looks GREAT.)

I don't know if there's any truth anymore to the idea that men and women prioritize sex differently, but that has been the myth since the days of Kinsey and Masters and Johnson. In that time, Good Girls Didn't Like Sex. Due their research as well as other societal factors (women's lib, the gay rights movement) many women are now saying that sex IS very important and a bigger part of our psyches and relationships than previous generations were willing to admit. I do think a lot of us are reacting with the cliché that men place a higher value on sex then women even though it may not be true.

I would say, the percentage of "do me princesses" is about equal between male and female subs, but the male DMPs are more noticeable because there are more male subs in general. IE, suppose (just for the sake of argument of here, I'm not quoting solid stats from anywhere.) that 4 out of 10 subs are DMPs. Male subs out-number female subs about 2 to 1 in my life. In a group of 30 subs, (10 f and 20 m) we have 4 females who are in essence, yelling "pick me, oh pick me!" and 8 males yelling "pick me, pick me!". Who's going to be more noticeable in this case?

 

[Netzach]

In actuality only here at Lit what you say is true. I know for a fact that it happens much more than you think.

yeeha thank goodness.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Good point Eb. I'm aware of this exception. It's somewhat nontraditional, as compared with the steamy sex of Venus in Furs.

And that is why they call it fiction, lol.

I gather you make it clear from the beginning that a sub is not going to have sexual access to you and that you are in no sense to be his lover. I don't know how much, if any, masturbation you allow under your direction or in your presence; if you do, then there is some sexual bonding, I suspect, and certainly outlet.

It is a lot more simple that you think. Basically, anything is on the table unless it is a hard limit. That leaves a whole of things that can be done or not done.

Also, it depends if the man is a submissive, a slave, or a slave SO. The amount of Domme contact really depends on how I feel about them and how they feel about me (what has been negotiated).

I have no doubt that, as you say, 'candidates' are not rare. OTOH, I suspect that this exclusion takes out the vast majority of self labeled male subs.

Well I may call myself a brain surgeon, but that does not make me one. So I have found many men who approach me may call themselves a submissive, but that does not make them one. What makes them one is my determination of their worthiness to serve Me. As for how many there are, it is really not relevant.

 

[MorfeuV]

Its simple.

ALL women want to be Dominated.

 

[CutieMouse]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

*raises an eyebrow*

 

[Netzach]

It's true. By delusional little twats no less. Ah my life, a lie, I confess.

 

[Netzach]

of course this REALLY makes being a lesbian even harder than you can imagine, and more confusing.

 

[saw_man1]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

Really?

 

[Aeroil]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

Well too bad, no matter how many clubs the submissive girls form with an agenda to turn Aeroil into a Dom (2, to date) I am not afraid to break their hearts because I would rather herd cats.

 

[Lilee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorfeuV
ALL women want to be Dominated.


You either have extreamly limited experience, are completely ignorant about women, or purposely posted an inflamatory statement hoping the Domme's will jump in a shred you to peices. *smirk* Whatsa matter little man, Mommy didn't give you enough attention?

 

[Ebonyfire]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

All trolls want to be Princes.

 

[Xelebes]

Well too bad, no matter how many clubs the submissive girls form with an agenda to turn Aeroil into a Dom (2, to date) I am not afraid to break their hearts because I would rather herd cats.

My dog is pretty good at herding cats.

Anyways, in my experience, there has always been more female subs than male subs. In the BDSM group I used to attend, there was at most 5 male subs who attended and at least 20 female subs. Dommes numbered 5-7 or so and Dom - there was always plenty of them. In my social circle it is only slightly different. Of the raver folk, only 2 other friends are male subs. There is only two dommes and the rest of them are aligned M/f equally. In the goth/punk circle, I only know 6-7 male subs and 3-4 dommes. I know an equal amount of female subs to male subs, though more likely a bias to females. I do not count.

So in other words, the popularity scale I have encountered is:

1: Male Doms
2: Female subs
3: Male Subs
4: Female Doms

Though what does skew the sample is that some of them are switches who have assumed a role for their current relationship, so the numbers may sway a bit, but the scale is for the most part correct in my experience.

 

[SpectreT]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

... I saw this, and thought... say that to some dominant females I've met, and those big balls would be hammered brass in a split second. They get a mite tetchy on that one...

 

[Pure]

reply to Catalina and Xelebes,

I said,
yes i suspect 'subs' (erotic slaves), at least male ones, were invented by Masoch, who lived somewhat that way, in a series of dramatic liaisons. no doubt he had classical personages in mind, i.e., males in mythology who get cruelly treated, eg Adonis; also Xtian martyrs like St. Sebastian.

the female he imagined is Venus, a sort of cruel love goddess of whom there have been several (Astarte, etc.). serving a goddess is probably an old idea.

he expressed the concept of erotic slavery in Venus in Furs (1870), so the book gave expression to his life and maybe to an idea floating around Europe at that time.

Catalina said,//Oh Pure, don't tell me you are joning the group of thinkers which believe every idea and pursuit came from the pages of a book or the screen originally?!! I always wonder if that is the case, where the writer got the original idea if we need a book to introduce it to us. I am sure submission and submissives existed before Venus in Furs was written.Catalina //
===
P: Catalina,
My qualifications to my original statement are given above. Masoch is the first fellow I know of who contrived to make himself an erotic slave of a Domme; some of his actual contracts exist. Those experiences with several women he tried to make his dommes, and his studies, gave rise to the book 'Venus in Furs' and other books. So the book is not the source for him, but the book is a source for many later "subs."

My "qualifications" are these, and generally everything 'new' is a recombination of past things.

1. Slave to love is an old theme; usually the woman in insanely in love and has 'no choice' but to give herself entirely to the devotion of the man, no matter how he rejects or ignores her or what his character. There are some male examples (in Manon Lescaut?).

2. Gay boys have been lovers and 'slaves' to gay men, who've (in some cases) mistreated them--whipped, etc.-- for ages.

3. Men have been known to love beatings, and request them of whores for hundreds of years. (e.g. tied up and whipped).

4. Some Christian figures, males and females, are certainly into pain and suffering, as in the pictures of St. Sebastian pierces by arrows.

5. Some of the classsic love goddess were depicted as cruel, and some had male devotees, iirc, who may, some of them, have castrated themselves.

6. Some persons, usually youth, since time immemorial have been captured and used as slaves, including for the sexual entertainment of the (sadistic) master or mistress, who may whip them, beat them, cornhole them, whatever; some of these are depicted in Sade's novels. Usually it is a woman slave, or a male slave to a gay male. Said slave does not usually like what happens and likely ends up dead.
(Modern examples are the sex slaves of sociopaths like Lake, Jamelske.)



Xelebes
Duc d'Oyonnax - the masochist answer to Marquis de Sade. However he did not write his exploits or fantasies down, but he was noted for having the largest collection of women's lingerie in the entire world at the time and would often have himself taken away with young strapping officers.

P: Well he's pretty obscure. Google turned up one passing reference as far as I could go. The Leather History timeline [De Blase]does not mention him. So he's hardly analogous to Sade. Do you have a reference.?

I will add an additional category:

7. Males, effeminate ones, who dress in women's clothes and take a woman's role sexually have been with us for centuries, including among N american aboriginal peoples, iirc.

===
So, despite all the precursors, I think Subs, males, who want to be bonded in a love relationship with a Domme who cruelly treats them according to some 'voluntary contract' ceding her unlimited powers, are prototypical/archetypal figures in the mind of Mr. Masoch, who, so far as we know, first expressed in writing the full combination, and who lived out such fantasies as best he could.

---

PS, after some search i found a single ref to what i'd call a kinky bottom male

Otway, in Venice Preserved (1682), depicted a masochistic Venetian senator engaging in what might today be termed 'puppy-play' or 'kennel-training' with his mistress.

i suppose ones like this are next door to the 'whip-me' males, who go back centuries.

 

[lord_bob]

ALL women want to be Dominated.

*reads*

*laughs and falls over laughing*

I should introduce this person to some of my friends and we'll see how wrong they are

 

[MorfeuV]

I hit a nerve!

It's true. By delusional little twats no less. Ah my life, a lie, I confess.

Yeah, I would have to agree.

of course this REALLY makes being a lesbian even harder than you can imagine, and more confusing.

Some lesbians exist becuase some "men" are not doing their jobs.

saw_man1 "Really?"

Yeah man, really!

Well too bad, no matter how many clubs the submissive girls form with an agenda to turn Aeroil into a Dom (2, to date) I am not afraid to break their hearts because I would rather herd cats.

Whatever blows your skirt up.

... purposely posted an inflamatory statement hoping the Domme's will jump in a shred you to peices.

Touché !

& the fact that I'm being totally sarcastic just adds to the hilarity.

*smirk* Whatsa matter little man, Mommy didn't give you enough attention?

Are you trying to get back at Daddy?

All trolls want to be Princes.

Sometimes I want to be a princess, but not today.

*reads*

*laughs and falls over laughing*

I should introduce this person to some of my friends and we'll see how wrong they are

Pretty soon I'll have enough time and money to fly where ever you're freinds might be.

... I saw this, and thought... say that to some dominant females I've met, and those big balls would be hammered brass in a split second. They get a mite tetchy on that one...

I read your reply, and thought... those dominant females that you know, are just waiting to be fucked by a REAL MAN that displays a higher level of dominance than they do.

I don't care who they are.

Even Venus wants to be fucked by Zeus.

 

[MorfeuV]

Kudos!

There sure are a lot of interesting observations being taken from this thread. The one I see hiding the background in many of the posts is largely a sterotype mindset about the gender prioritatization of sex. I.E. the idea that sex is higher on the priority list for men than for women. Women seem to have a much larger freedom in being able to slot sex in their list of priorities where as men are seen as helpless to their cocks. This sterotype seems to transcend dominance or submission as well based on some of the views expressed of male Doms and mle submissives. What I find interesting is the influence this has upon how a Domme exerts her dominance as opposed to how a Dom exerts his dominance. This in turn effecting a bias as to what is or what is not acceptable behavior for a male submissive. Where a female submissive might be encouraged in her sexuality, a male submissive may be discouraged as a means to take away that part of the male in them or more correctly said "to make sure it is clearly understood that part of the male will always be secondary to what the Domme deems a priority".

I have often thought about the balance of Dommes having multiple submissives both male and female....to Doms having multiple submissives both male and female. It is interesting to me in my observations that Dommes often have multiple submissives where the green-eye monster does not seem to come into play "as much" as a Dom with multple female submissives. Perhaps there is a key of understanding buried here.

Female submissives do not share well, most not at all.. You may find some who are willing to allow physical sexual activity(with others), so long as they are not required to share other aspects of the relationship which they deem more of a priority with their Dom.

Is there any truth that men and women view sexuality differently? If so, I wonder how many disntinctions between how Dommes and Doms exert their dominace, can be traced backed to this...and as a result of that also look at how that in turn affects male and female submissives? Or looking at it from the bottom up...if men and women view sexuality differently, what distinctions or explanations can then be understood. For male submissives it appears they are required to supress their sexuality at least to the degree it is surrendured to the Domme's will, where as female submissives are required to surrendure their sexuality by elevating it to almost a slut's level to meet the Dom's will. Notice how in both cases the word surrendure is used...interesting.

If you do not see the gender sterotype as being valid, but see this as an individual thing, then I am fine with that. I am not making statements of fact as much as I am makeing genral observations based on personal experience as well as what I see expressed from others.

I would have to agree 100% with you.

 

[Kajira Callista]

*shakes head* tsktsk

*heads out to the store for more troll spray*

 

[Xelebes]

Pure:

I should have also mentioned that Duc d'Oyonnax predates Marquis de Sade. Duc d'Oyonnax was from the period of Louis XIV, the Sun King while Marquis de Sade was from around Louis XVI's reign. He was also the husband of Liselotte, daughter of the Winter Queen.

Beyond that, I too have come across only references from hm. He was not a writer like Baron von Sacher-Masoch or Marquis de Sade so that may be a dissuasion point.

 

[Aeroil]

Whatever blows your skirt up.

Hot air does