Why is the laundry more important?

[wildsweetone]

Then again, the world would be a better place if men acted a bit more like women, and women acted a bit more like men. Then we'd have a balance.


Unisex rules!

i think it would work if we simply learned how to respect each other

 

[DVS]

But, everybody is different. I think it is much more fun that way. I like meeting new people. If we are all alike, boring!

 

[Guest]

anti pc

*breaking down resolve to hold tongue*

okay, i don't like unisex... i like the differences between male and female... i mean i really like the differences

i like the differences in shape and texture

i like the differences in how we see the world... even though this can be annoying and frustrating sometimes

i liked carrying my children and nursing them

i liked my husband being turned on by these things

i like the way men smell and walk and how it is just so foreign to me

i like my softness juxtaposed with his hardness

the differences are very erotic to me

*fanning self and needing her hard husband*
b

 

[SlickTony]

WRT this debate, for my own experience, my mother got credit for being a SAHM, but she was involved in so many organizations that after I started school, when it came to getting hold of her during school hours for any reason whatever, she was less accessible than if she were tied to a desk, a cash register, or a machine.

She did not work because she felt the kind of jobs she might have gotten with her job skills (HFA major, some clerical experience) were probably beneath her. Also, I don't think my dad wished her to work. We lived in a neighborhood where she felt superior to, and had little in common, with most of the neighbors. All her friends were in far-flung parts of Houston. The thing I remember most about my relationship with her as a child was her talent--she was a great cook, seamstress, and all-around crafty person--and her anger.. I and my sisters seemed to always be walking on eggs in fear of her temper.

The world turns, and times change. If we had to live on either one of our salaries alone, we would not be able to make it. Both my kids have been in daycare at one time or another. They neither of them claim that it was all golden, but I don't think they were afraid of me.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Speaking of laundry... I remember a funny thing a Stand-Up Comdeian said...

First of all, do you guys have a laundry detergent company that you can call to get advice on how to wash your clothes and get rid of difficult stains and stuff? We do. It's called Via Directly.

Anyhow, with Halloween approaching, this guy got the idea that he'd scare his little nephew, whom he was babysitting. So, he put a sheet on top of himself, painted eyes on it, and entered the boy's room going "boooooooooh".

But, in these day in age, when your uncle comes into your room wearing a sheet with painted-on-eyes, you don't get scared and cry for help, you take your mobile and call Via Directly.

And when THEY hear that you uncle came into your room, and now you don't know how to get rid of the stains on the sheet, then they will call the police...

 

[Quasimodem]

Grown on a Farm

I was one of the kids that were grown on a farm. ( A two acre truck garden & 20,000 broilers)

When my parents weren't working at the home farm, they both had real jobs, elsewhere.

When my mother was at home, I roamed the countryside (mostly woods) with an old Gordon Setter and any of the neighbourhood kids I fell in with. When my mother was not at home, I roamed the same countryside with the same Setter and same neighbour kids.

One of the first things I learned to do, was cook. Before that, I could make sandwiches. And before that - as far back as I can remember ( I imagine it's back to soft food!) I knew how to unwrap sandwiches.

I had a three year older sister. She could also cook. The only things she did that I wasn't taught, was housekeeping and laundry.

My chore was mucking out the chicken barn. (Do you have any conception of how much chicken shit 20,000 broilers can produce every 24 hours?)

Nor were we hard done by. When the whole family got together, we didn't have to waste time taking care of the day to day stuff. Instead, we had fun.

I don't know how many times I was driven over a couple hundred miles to some special event : movie, boating trip, hockey game, quarter midget races, fall fair, etc. Then, driven home late at night - my sister asleep on the back seat; me sacked out on the floor, on my stomach, curled over the transmission hump.

I hear so much about what a parent MUST provided if the child is to grow up and not become a criminal!

From what I've seen, that Gordon Setter was a better role model than the parents of most children.
She wasn't forever telling me I couldn't do something (or alternately telling me I could do ANYTHING!) But, what ever I did do, she did it with me.

She headed off an enraged bull that was chasing me (okay, maybe it was just a big steer), helped me finish my lunch (even when it was only peanut butter and jelly) and shared the results of a vitriol attack after I accidentally stirred up a skunk, without telling me "I told you so!"

How many mothers can say the same?

 

[Guest]

halcyon days

Quasi-
that is probably one of the most remarkable pieces of your writing that i have read... ( I love your pithy and off the wall remarks too)

very poignant and dear...

thanks for sharing it with us! (I hate that phrase, but I really mean it)

b

 

[wildsweetone]

hmm farm life... the first thing i learned to do was drink milk straight from the cow... nice grandfather i had lol

the second thing was how to have a strawberry fight in the middle of strawberry picking season. man did i cop it for that.

 

[SlickTony]

that is probably one of the most remarkable pieces of your writing that i have read...

Quasi--what Bridget said.

 

[its Leslie]

Hmmm away for a day and I get left behind it looks like.

Ok a few details that might be stale though.

Brother had a problem with hitting girls when he was small.
Problem was dad was away at work to much (away a few days off a few back to work for a few). Problem was dad was away more than back.
Seems my brother was sick of being surrounded by women and nothing but women.
Solution. Dad got work closer to home so he was home more.

You can never edit out the parent (either one).

Regarding learning. Well I won't allow my son to skip class. I did it alot but it comes back to haunt me enough.
I skipped class and went to the library to read text books. End result is I am incredibly educated (fucking smart as hell actually). But because on paper I am largely "uneducated" no one gives a fuck what I do in fact know.

Until my son can prove he won't need those god damned pieces of paper, I will insist he play the scholastic game.

I won't be quoting any surveys or studies much, I can show how they are often slanted, biased, or just plain fraudulent, when it matters.
All I know, is if you fuck up the parenting between day 1 and 3 years old, you have no way of starting over. And I have noticed, your kid will deliver a life time based on your choices during those years.
I thought I would be pro corporal punishment. I have smacked my sons butt twice in 8 years.
My son learned that dad was more fun to be with when dad was happy.
And the most important thing I learned...don't say anything you don't REALLY mean. Credibility works wonders. I never tell him anything more than twice. He knows there isn't a third time, I just start instituting repercusions like lost priviledges.
And those priviledges remain lost. There is no negotiation. And if it's a day duration or a week, it remains regardless of any sudden inconvenience.

Made a bet with him recently. If he could walk away from all electronic toys for a week, I would give him my spending money starting next month (I average 20 bucks on my lifestyle). True to my word I had to suffer with no spending money that month, beyond what I was able to scrounge up with a wood working favour I did.

Kids respond well when they are seen as equals, not lesser members of a family. They also respond well when they see the rules apply to us as much as them.

I see no shortage of parents though, that regard children as possessions and not people.

 

[wildsweetone]

children are future adults, future leaders.

they deserve dignity and respect the same as other adults.

I see no shortage of parents though, that regard children as possessions and not people.

for the life of me, i cannot see why some adults bother to have offspring. it drives me nuts when i see parents dumping kids on others to raise, when i see parents leaving young kids home alone, and when i see adults abusing kids.

why the heck do some women get pregnant, carry babies in their wombs and then basically submit them to a slow death from birth?

ohhhh don't get me started. grrrr

maybe that darn location implant idea isn't so bad after all.

 

[Guest]

culture of valuing every person

they deserve dignity and respect the same as other adults.

I have been turning these words over in my mind for a day.... I think that this thread has bumped up against one issue from a variety of angles...
Every person deserves dignity and respect.
Whether it is a woman wanting to be treated as the competent person she is, a man desiring to be affirmed in his masculinity, a person of a different ethnic background needing to be seen as more than their external attributes or a child deserving to be cherished by their parents, it's all an issue of each person's intrinsic value.

On another thread DVS has discussed "civilized behavior". I believe that acknowledging and protecting the intrinsic value of each person is the difference between a civilized and uncivilized society. If we don't respect the value of the helpless-- the young, old and disabled-- we slide into a state less than civilized... people are treated according to their "value-adding" ability.. whether the value added is to our own pleasure or satisfaction or to society's wealth.

My tag line is about this concept... not the "go out in a blaze of glory", but the thought that this may be the last day I have to tell my family and others that I love them and demonstrate my love by putting them first.

*going to eat more ice cream*

bridget

 

[DVS]

I agree completely with what you say about a "civilized" society where every person deserves dignity and respect. Especially to those who can't fight for themselves, such as the elderly or mentally ill. We all need to be sure they are cared for in a civilized and dignified way.

We all get old, and some will also become mentally ill. Because they are not producing individuals is no reason to stick them in some darkened hole, until they finally die. Unfortunately, this can still happen in some parts of the world, and even in the U.S.

In one V.A. hospital maggots were found in the noses of more than one elderly veteran, among other indignities. To my knowledge, all that was done to this hospital was to take some federal money away from them.

We also need to respect those who wish to be different, just because of their personal feelings. Gay men and women, should be respected as individuals, just like any other.

What I dislike about a so called civilized society is how we treat those who have disregarded the civil rights and personal rights of others, being a bully or tyrant or both.

Abusing, killing or raping of innocents, and all of the other unspeakable things that are done to the good and loving civilized people of the world is sometimes more than I can take.

Yet, because we are a civilized society, we still treat these creeps in a civilized manner, even after convicted, and even when putting them to death. But, I have already bored you with that.

Sure, in an evolved society bad things will happen. In an evolved society, evil preys upon the unsuspecting good. We all know this happens. I guess dealing with it in a civilized way is the best way, but I still don't like it.

 

[Guest]

civilized vs evolved

Sure, in an evolved society bad things will happen. In an evolved society, evil preys upon the unsuspecting good. We all know this happens. I guess dealing with it in a civilized way is the best way, but I still don't like it.

DVS- I think that the distinction between an evolved and a civilized society is important. In an evolved society survival of the fittest dictates that we will not hold to the tenets of a civilized society. There is no place for the weak and undesirable in an evolved society... they are obsolete.

I do not see unending appeals and sanitized executions as marks of a civilized society. Protecting those who have disrespected life to the point of destroying life-- whether through actual murder, or through rape or molestation-- is a perversion of civilization. In order to protect the innocent, a civilized society must remove the guilty and do so in a decisive manner.

By not dealing with violators stringently, we communicate that what was done was not really so bad. We agree to respect each other and in return we expect to be protected from disrespect. If there is no penalty that is a deterrent, there is no protection. No, sometimes the wrong cannot be undone, but society validates that a wrong has been done to a person worthy of dignity and respect.

I think that by removing the personal wrong from the punishment, we remove the opportunity for restitution and closure. When someone murders or steals, they are committing a crime against a person and that person's family. That person or that person's family deserves restitution. This affirms the dignity and worth of the victim... What a civilized society should be about.

-b

 

[Svenskaflicka]

it drives me nuts when i see parents dumping kids on others to raise, when i see parents leaving young kids home alone

Hey!!!

Don't pick on my parents!

They let others look after me in the days because they HAD to work, they let me stay home alone when I ASKED them to, and I've never, EVER felt unloved or "dumped". I have a great relation with my parents today, and I will do the same thing to my kids when I get them.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Regarding learning. Well I won't allow my son to skip class. I did it alot but it comes back to haunt me enough.
I skipped class and went to the library to read text books. End result is I am incredibly educated (fucking smart as hell actually). But because on paper I am largely "uneducated" no one gives a fuck what I do in fact know.

Until my son can prove he won't need those god damned pieces of paper, I will insist he play the scholastic game.




My son learned that dad was more fun to be with when dad was happy.

First of all... by "skipping class", I didn't mean not going to school. I meant skipping one grade, and moving up from 1st to 3rd class.

Second...ofcourse kids should learn that good actions get them nice response, but I don't think it should be so that a kid will do things only to please others, I think it's better if they learn WHY to do these good things. An example:

My friend and her son were discussing Christmas decorations. Her son (who was 3 at the time) liked the neighbors' porchlights very much, and said he wanted to take them and put them at their house. My friend pointed out to him that they couldn't do that, because the lights didn't belong to them. Stealing the lights from the neighbor would make the neighbor sad, and what if the neighbor would come and steal something from them? He wouldn't like that, now, would he?
After some intense thinking, he realized he didn't want anyone to steal from them, so, he agreed that it was wrong for him to steal from anyone either.

I think that it's better that a kid will think "I shouldn't do this, because I wouldn't like it if anyone did this to me", than just "I shouldn't do this, because then mum and dad will get mad at me". I think the first teaches kids empathy, while the second creates secret fetishes.

And yes, I know it sounds unbelievable that a 3-year-old could do that much thinking, but he's a very special child.

 

[wildsweetone]

Hey!!!

Don't pick on my parents!

They let others look after me in the days because they HAD to work, they let me stay home alone when I ASKED them to, and I've never, EVER felt unloved or "dumped". I have a great relation with my parents today, and I will do the same thing to my kids when I get them.

I did not say your parents dumped you. I was referring to parents who dump their children on others to look after.

Dump meaning leaving the child with someone else while the parent goes off on a consistant basis to improve their material wealth.

Dump meaning leaving the child with someone else while the parent goes off on a consistant basis to 'live life' with the ties of parenthood.

Too many parents to into parenthood with the misconstrued impression that all they have to do is conceive and give birth to a child...

As for your comment on "HAD to work"... there are huge variations of "Had to" I've discovered.

Some parents have to work, yes, their income doesn't cover the bare essentials of life, ie food, clothing, shelter. by food, i don't mean caviar and champagne. by clothing i don't mean Armani. by shelter, I don't mean the newest castle on the hill.

Other parents though, DUMP their kids so they can go to work to have these precious 'can't do without' necessities.

Of course, it's their right to do that. Trouble is, the kids they're leaving to others to bring up are turning out to have very different values from their parents. Which is not a bad thing at times.

 

[SlickTony]

You get communal parenting all over the animal kingdom. And in your human tribal setups, a kid's alloparents would at one time have been members of his own kinship group. You'd have lived in a folk village and everyone would have known you. Hillary Clinton said it takes a village to raise a child, and once upon a time you had the village; and in the city, you had the neighborhood, and the neighborhood had more or less community standards. But now everyone moves from pillar to post. And there has always been this duality of desire and purpose in human beings; the desire to stay in one's own community wars against the equally natural instinct to go where no man has ever gone before. That's outer space and undersea, now, but at one time it was as little as fifteen miles away.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

As for your comment on "HAD to work"... there are huge variations of "Had to" I've discovered.

Some parents have to work, yes, their income doesn't cover the bare essentials of life, ie food, clothing, shelter. by food, i don't mean caviar and champagne. by clothing i don't mean Armani. by shelter, I don't mean the newest castle on the hill.

Bridge, I have a question: you say that "some parents have to work", in order to provide their families with basic food and shelter.

Just exactly what do the other parents do to provide their families with those things, since they're not working?

I speak for my country now; hardly any family can survive on merely ONE income.
And in my case - even if my hubby would make enough money to pay for our entire family, I'd still not want to be a housewife. I NEED to go out and work, or I'll grow stupid from lack of intellectual stimulance.

Ofcourse children need their parents to care about them, much more than they need a webcam or a mobile, but that doesn't mean that one has to sit and hold their hand 24 hours a day! Kids need their parents the most when they are little; the older they get, the more they understand and respect the fact that their parents need to work. They learn to take their place in the big wheel. One has to know how to find the balance between abandonment - support - smothering.

 

[wildsweetone]

Bridge, I have a question: you say that "some parents have to work", in order to provide their families with basic food and shelter.

Just exactly what do the other parents do to provide their families with those things, since they're not working?

I speak for my country now; hardly any family can survive on merely ONE income.
And in my case - even if my hubby would make enough money to pay for our entire family, I'd still not want to be a housewife. I NEED to go out and work, or I'll grow stupid from lack of intellectual stimulance.

Ofcourse children need their parents to care about them, much more than they need a webcam or a mobile, but that doesn't mean that one has to sit and hold their hand 24 hours a day! Kids need their parents the most when they are little; the older they get, the more they understand and respect the fact that their parents need to work. They learn to take their place in the big wheel. One has to know how to find the balance between abandonment - support - smothering.

not all parents are able to work... some survive with their families on benefits from governments - and they do survive.

as for growing stupid from lack of intellectual stimulance, yes there are some parents i've heard this comment from. but with technology as it is, good intellectual stimulance is only one button away.

of course, the other option could be that having children and spending time with them will give you so much stimulation that you would find it difficult to cope.

 

[Guest]

Identity Crisis

Svenska-

Okay, I guess I need to change my avatar to differentiate myself from WSO....

What is the tax rate in Sweden?

I have friends with more than six children who "manage" to get by on one income.... they get lots of their clothes second hand and don't drive new cars, but they have the most incredible children... confident and well-balanced.

Amazingly, one woman has an advanced degree in chemistry and another a degree in electrical engineering. Another friend is a registered architect and is at home with her two sons.

I understand the concerns about intellectual stimulation, but really, as WSO pointed out, that's fairly irrelevent now. GG2 and I pm'ed about zeolites and physical chemistry the other day once we found out we had similar engineering backgrounds. I am able to keep up to date on professional issues very easily. And I don't have to put on a suit or heels to do so.

Until I had children I was certain that I would remain in the workforce throughout my children's childhood. Once the kiddo arrived my husband and I knew that the best thing would be for me to be the primary care-giver. Our budget got stretched and my ego had to re-center... no bonus checks because I was so brilliant, just juicy smiles because I was mom.

-b

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I don't have any kids of my own yet, so everything I know about kids I've learned from my best friend, whose son is 3.

AS I've gathered, she doesn't get very much time to herself, especially not in front of the computer, 'cause the kid loves computer games. She is a very intelligent woman, and she enjoys having demanding discussions, just like me. From what I've seen, she gets her stimulation mostly from talking to her husband, listening to the radio, talking to her mother and her friends over the phone, and the few minutes a week she spends on the net. I just feel that this would not be enough for ME. I want a full-time job demanding me to THINK all the time. And even though her kid is unusually sharp for his age, spending the entire day with a 3-year-old and talk to him about chipmunks and meatballs and look-there's-a-kitty, just doesn't ask enough of my head.

Everyone's needs are different.

The tax rate in Sweden is around 30%-33%. But then again, Sweden is a rather expensive country to live in. An example:

I get 6.700 SKR a month from social security. 3.400:- is rent money. I have 3.300:- left. To go by bus costs me around 500:- a month (I have no driver's license.), which leaves 2.800:- Say I have to go to the doctor this month - that's between 125 and 250 SKR. Say I have to pay my TV license - 470 SKR. Say I have a phone bill of... 800:- (Mine is usually higher than that, since I make a lot of international calls to my hubby, but just for argument's sake, let's say it's this low.) After all this, I'm down to 1.750:- for one month. To pay for food, hygienics, toilet paper, medicines, clothes...

There are many reasons why I don't want to have kids yet...

 

[its Leslie]

What stimulates one will kill another with boredom.

Svenska would looooooove my sister, as my sister is driven I mean reeeeeeally driven.

She works, I mean she WORKS. She is always taking yet another course so she has yet more options. If your job sucks, it's sorry fuck you and your job, someone else will hire me, I don't "need" you.

She is rarely unemployed long, and she doesn't fly a cash register.

She has two girls, and they are not lacking much (materially).
But she saw no worth in their dad, so he was never allowed to marry her.
The girls though, are driving her through financial hell, thanks to their dad wanting to be a fucking idiot about custody. Legal hassles in abundance.

So here we have a very success driven woman, very smart, very hirable, that thought she could have kids "just because she wanted them". Now it has come to haunt her.

Her life is what she made it. She has the kids, but lets face it, she was never in a position to cope with them. She wasn't ready for being a mother, wife, and income earner. She is still a great worker, but her choices have greatly marred her potential future.

And her two kids are a mix of emotional baggage that will haunt them as well.

Now me on the other hand. I don't think Svenska would call me the same sort of person she wishes to be.
When I got married, I intended to earn the income, and I intended my wife to be a mother period.
Well life didn't give a shit so that's the way it goes.
My disability placed me in an income that is what it is and nothing more.

But my son has the benfit of having not only his mother, but his father to see him through developement. Personally I think he has a lot of perks most kids can't dream of regardless of income (you have to see the positive in things sometimes).

True it can seem dull here some days. But going to work would be even duller if it was in a suit and tie (please just shoot me if that is what you want of me).

I am a self taught man. I didn't get any of my post grade school intellect out of a highschool or post secondary education. I also don't expect it to grow in a job.
Nope my intellect is the product of private study. I read and I read a great lot. I read science, history, technology, anything I can get my hands on.
No chance of it ever getting me work, but then again, it would be a cold day in hell before I would ever be someones cog in a machine, I know to much.

Nope you would be working for me as a cog long before the other way around.

As for children being stimulating, hmmmm a 3 year old is a great deal more stimulating that a co worker will ever be. A blank slate is a lot more work than one filled with a life of rubbish.

This weekend while out on a Scouting camp out I was face to face with 24 Cubs that didn't know much about stars. So I had to explain eeeeeeevrything. But they found it interesting. They asked questions. They asked odd questions. I had to think fast, and fill in a lot of holes real quick.

I have wanted to be a teacher, but not grade school. Nope, grade school requires a lot of skill.
I can't think of any job right now that is more demanding than a grade 3 teachers job.

My sister by the way is always trying to get me to be like her. She can't see the forest for the trees though. I am already where, she is trying to go.

 

[SlickTony]

Say I have to pay my TV license - 470 SKR.

Svenskaflicka, is that equivalent to one's cable bill in my country?

I have been a SAHM before, but mostly when I was living in areas with depressed economies where I couldn't get a job; I could never stick with it. From what I got seeing my parents' marriage, and my first marriage, I just couldn't do it. When you have one person earning an income and the other not, the relationship devolves into a one of unequals. It's unavoidable. The obverse of the Golden Rule is "He who has the gold, makes the rules." I remember my mother being all trepidacious because she had spent $10 (!) on a hair extension; her screaming with rage because she didn't have near as much house as her friends; him telling her that all he ever heard from her was "I want, I want," with the reminder that she did nothing to contribute to the household income; and he didn't tell her half what she ought to have known about their finances when he was alive. And they had for the most part what was for that time a good marriage, and they would be married for 52 years if he'd been spared. But I thought, no way! I'm not getting into that bind, thankyouverymuch! There have been times when my husband and I had next to nothing, but at least half the nothing was mine.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

No, Tony, that's license for having a TV. I pay that 4 times a year. Without it, it would be illgeal for me to watch TV. With that, I get the 3 basic channels; channel 1, channel 2, and channel 4 (the first 2 being non-commercial, the last one rather commercial.) If I want to have Swedish channels 3, 5, and Z-TV, I pay a cable fee. If I want international channels, like Cinema, Hallmark, etc, I pay another cable fee.

Luckily for me, I've got a great deal with this apartment, the electricity and the cable TV (Swedish channels) are included in the rent.