Why The Holocaust Must Be Questioned

[woody54]

Umm...what big gas cylinders?

Nobody ever claimed that there were big cylinders, full of gas at Auschwitz.

Maybe at Ouschwitz, but not at Auschwitz. At Auschwitz, and Birkenau, the gas was alleged to come from a pesticide called Zyklon-B, which came in cans of 250, 500, or 750 gram size. It was in solid form, and only became gas when exposed to the air. Cans of this pesticide were no bigger than a small can of paint. There was no need for big cylinders.

Here's a detailed description of all the facilities both at Auschwitz and Birkenau. If Zippy reads it, he can find out how that Nizkor site lied about compressed air being used on wood pyres. There were no air compressors for either wood or oven cremation. Krema's II and III had pulsed air injectors for air feed, but those aren't the same as compressors.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0011.shtml

Soo...you've visited Oushwitz? If it's close to or the same thing as Auschwitz, you must have noted some various things. You mention ovens, and the only place where they have ovens on display is at Auschwitz itself (NOT Birkenau), so you must have seen these things on the tour too.

For instance, what did you think of the swimming pool the prisoners had at Auschwitz I? It's close to the main gate.

Did they show you the ice cream machines in the kitchens?

The brothel for the prisoners?

The theater, complete with the posters for the original plays the inmates wrote and staged? An original copy of "The Auschwitz Waltz", composed by one of the inmates, is on display there.

Near Block 11 is the office of the Auschwitz State Museum. What did you think of Dr. Piper, the director? He usually greets tours.

When you toured what they pass off as the original gas chamber for Krema I, did you notice the sewer grate in the floor? Bad idea in a gas chamber. That sewer connects to the SS Hospital across the street - you noticed that too, right? Lots of SS patients must have been killed by the fumes.

Do tell.

Its not fair asking all the hard questions first

 

[woody54]

First lets try to keep the insults to a minimum. You are an inteligent man and if you didn't notice I respect a lot of your views. Simply its beneath who I believe you are.

I won't argue with you that both the Americans and the Nazis actions are highly objectionable, and probably evil. I'm saying they are different kinds of evil. Americans are greedy, Nazis were needlessly destructive.

Nothing should be to sacred to examine farther. I believe this on the Holocaust, just as I believe it on anything else religious or otherwise. If things are questioned and confirmed to be true how can we trust them, believe in them and more importantly learn from them?

Jews (like any other race) tend to self segregate. I won't argue that. I like wise refuse to argue that it has been a long standing goal of the jews to restore their homeland and would go to any length to accomplish it. (Hense my being willing to listen to you views, especially with so many damn facts.) But are you going to tell me that prior to the Holocaust Jewish Germans did not pay taxes? Or are you going to tell me that people who made more money in 1930's Germany didn't pay more taxes than less wealthy? Are you going to tell me that those Jews only bought bread from outside countries? I understand they declared war, but what exactly had they accomplished to harm Germany up to that point? I'm pretty much saying that Bill Gates and Micheal Jackson do a lot of funding for the military despite anything else you may think about them. Nothing more, nothing less.

America became muslim haters quickly partially because people are sheep. But as the current Muhamed Cartoons have shown. Amongst other issues if you read the news. (I don't get all, or even most of my information from Fox. Stupid conservative network) They are angry about things, justified or not they are angry. It took their leaders how long to calm down their masses after the cartoons? And tell me that there isn't a death threat out? Tell me that there is no reward for the head of a cartoonist? Why haven't these things been publicly renounced? Why isn't Osama the enemy of the Muslim world? Even if you say we are evil we would have pretty much left them alone if we weren't given an excuse. So why is the man who pulled the Tiger's tail scorned? Because on the large they agree with him.

I'd love to refute you on the world becoming a slave to money. But honestly we have two choices, be slaves to violence or slaves to money. There is no other way. Communism does not work because human beings are not a collective. We aren't a hive. We aren't ants that we live to see the continuation of our species. We live to see the continuation of ourselves. It is human nature. Communism is a beautiful idea, it just happens that human beings are not selfless and can never truly be.

I sleep soundly because I was there. I know what they were doing and like the Japanesse we didn't have a less violent option that was likely to work. As you said so clearly and so truly we failed to break their spirit. Twice (and it was really more than that). Something had to be done. Just like with the Japanesse. Now I won't argue that we shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. If you want to get upset with Bush for putting people in a life or death situation I support that view. But I can tell you that anybody who wants to kill me is inheritenly wrong and needs to be killed. Anybody who is between me and somebody who wants to kill me wants to kill me by association. He too is my enemy and thus is fair game. Personally I'm not certain we should have spared the women and children. They are just as effective at being suicide bombers? Now if you want to say we shouldn't be there, so be it. But like in Vietnam I support anything you do to not get killed.

True or not (I refuse to comment) I doubt that history will show Bush to be a Zionist puppet. Simply because I can only see two realistic ends. Either A the jews will suceed in their milenia old quest to conquer the world. And as the Winners they will write history in a way that flatters them. Or B things will continue as they do and very few people will believe that the Jews have a plot to take over the world. Either Way Bush seems to get off.

In closing the Warsaw ghettos were still producing a tax base, and probably goods of some kind for Germany. Falujah was just in the fucking way. The reasons were different. Both were massively evil but not for the same reason.

And history will show that might makes right. I just hope I'm around when people realize that it should be economic might, not military. But that isn't going to happen tommorow.

I wasn't aware I had insulted you but after your last post, you clearly fall into the warmonger mentality and will justify your own tyranny to cover your actions, which were part of the carpetbagging of a country that never wanted your involvement there. Where do you get off claiming your sort of murderous tyranny was a lesser offence than than those of Nazis. You are deluded and brainwashed because all the victims of both tyrannies died unecessary and horrible deaths. The scale of US debauchery has not yet revealed itself because ultimately 40 - 50 % of the US mercenaries who have been in action in Iraq will be incapacitated by their own evil weapons - DU ammunition. God does understand irony. Bush will never be seen as good influence outside of Republican and warmonger dupes.
Under globalists the world citizens will be slaves to money and violence together and because depopulation will become a more open strategy as time goes on. Africa, who threatens no-one, is already the most violated place on the face of the planet. The Aids epidemic there coincidentally appeared at the same moment US genetic splicing technology appeared and that allowed racist men to make and use their own viruses. Have you read Kissingers report on population control? No, I didn't think so.

Osama is a vilified stooge in US mantra yet this superhero could not possibly have orchestrated the totality of 9/11 in advance from a cave in Afghanistan, particularly when the Feds and Mossad knew what everyone was doing for months beforehand. Several hijackers were given valid visas when they were on the International wanted list. Osama couldn't do that to get his men into the US and not harassed while they prepared with one of the biggest drugrunners in the country.

You also seem particularly ignorant on the history of Jews and Zionism and it shows the ADL grooming does not prepare you for credible discourse on their associated history. Education and research is the enemy of perpetuating tyranny and I implore you to increase your understandings of these topics.

Google Herzl and read about the prime objectives of the first Zionist conference. If this isnt about a strategy of conspiracy and influence, I'll eat my hat.

The best sources of Jewish activites and intent is from Jewish sources. They are their best promoters and likewise, their worst critics who cannot be called antisemitic. I recommend you do some research.
History does not show that might makes right as Atilla the Hun, the Crusades, and the extremist scourges of Communism and Nazism clearly indicate.
The similarity of Neocon USA and Nazi fascism is scarily obvious to outsiders if you allow the other supremacists the reins of power.

International bankers, many of who are zionists, will control the world if they can break the Muslim faith and dominate the Asians by mercenary means. Globalism stands or falls on the ability crush resistance to western influences found from Muslim teachings, and Muslims have been found to be remarkably more resilient and committed to their beliefs that they were ever given credit for by the West. This could be the straw that denies the world total domination by globalists over the next century..... but Jewish and Zionist strategy is that of millenia. Recall it only took 100 years from a standing start to wheedle a homeland they wanted for nothing, with everyone falling over themselves to pacify their hurt from the horrors of WWII.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I didn't mean to imply that the US's crimes were less than Germany's. I was suggesting that the US's crimes are not the same. You know like a suicide bomber is different from a serial killer. Even if they get the same body count, even if they both die in the end. The mentality is different and saying they are the same means that you will never be able to properly deal with it because you are mis-diagnosing.

I've never believe that Osama did it anyway. Its always seemed odd to me that the super terrorist denied the greatest attack in American History. But this isn't the current subject. Besides I don't have facts to argue with other than he denied it and I don't think he would lie to us about THAT. '

I will take your advice and further my education on the Zionist goals. I admit that your knowledge in this subject far outstrips my own. I still wish you had answered my question about do Jews pay taxes and thus help their host country. However inadvertantly.

So you quote all the people who lost? I don't hear to many people criticize the allies in WWI. The north in the Civil War (I might be black but the north was still wrong.) The Jews (As you've spent so much time arguing) are never wrong and the might they wield is economic but as the Cold war has proven money are slowly (and hopefully forever and completely) replacing guns. Might in one way or another is the only thing that human truly understand. It is the way we are wired. You work with the might of intelect. Which I greatly respect. But it is still a matter of imposing your will, your thoughts onto others. You don't hold a gun, you hold an encyclopedia. I personally prefer the dollar.

I don't mean this as tearing down your point, but do you have more than circumstansial evidence that AIDS is a man made disease. I've heard this belief before, granted I heard it was released by "The Man" to kill blacks and gays. The Jewish part wasn't tacked on at the time but hearing the same myth from multiple angles makes me curious.

God is a fairy tale. As a result he has no sense of irony.

I didn't say Bush was great. Or even good. Or anything positive about him. I said that if the Jews take over the world they probably won't write the history books to say. "We mad played that bitch yo!" And if they don't take over then it is likely that nobody but you and likeminded individuals will ever know that he's being played.

 

[Lovelynice]

I see all those equations were over your head.

Your claims of winning this arguement arent supported by the evidence I have provided and your denial of their validity, and your unwillingness to provide the other definitions from your own dictionaries only proves me out.

Furthermore you're beginning to sound like your racist, hate-mongering buddies Woody and Krastner. Can I assume you deny the fact of the Holocaust as well?

Perhaps next time you should enlist the moral support of The Flat Earth Society or other nutcase groups who when proven wrong may blissfully stick their head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge FACTS, yet have enough dignity to not wallow around in the cess pools of history revisionism.

Geez, you really are nutter aren't you.

You lost the argument when you started to question the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of the word "fact"

All the rest of your nonsense is just you not having the guts to admit it. You're a coward.

And I'm neither racist or a hate-monger, but I notice that you certainly are.

Also you carry on now with your "assumptions" is much like your "assumptions" about the meaning of a single word - which you got wrong

So go ahead, make your silly assumptions, create a whole new delusional reality, afterall you like to make assumptions about the meaning of the word "fact" even though two different dictionaries disagree with you.

 

[Lovelynice]

Umm...what big gas cylinders?


Nobody ever claimed that there were big cylinders, full of gas at Auschwitz.

Maybe at Ouschwitz, but not at Auschwitz. At Auschwitz, and Birkenau, the gas was alleged to come from a pesticide called Zyklon-B, which came in cans of 250, 500, or 750 gram size. It was in solid form, and only became gas when exposed to the air. Cans of this pesticide were no bigger than a small can of paint. There was no need for big cylinders.

Here's a detailed description of all the facilities both at Auschwitz and Birkenau. If Zippy reads it, he can find out how that Nizkor site lied about compressed air being used on wood pyres. There were no air compressors for either wood or oven cremation. Krema's II and III had pulsed air injectors for air feed, but those aren't the same as compressors.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0011.shtml

Soo...you've visited Oushwitz? If it's close to or the same thing as Auschwitz, you must have noted some various things. You mention ovens, and the only place where they have ovens on display is at Auschwitz itself (NOT Birkenau), so you must have seen these things on the tour too.

For instance, what did you think of the swimming pool the prisoners had at Auschwitz I? It's close to the main gate.

Did they show you the ice cream machines in the kitchens?

The brothel for the prisoners?

The theater, complete with the posters for the original plays the inmates wrote and staged? An original copy of "The Auschwitz Waltz", composed by one of the inmates, is on display there.

Near Block 11 is the office of the Auschwitz State Museum. What did you think of Dr. Piper, the director? He usually greets tours.

When you toured what they pass off as the original gas chamber for Krema I, did you notice the sewer grate in the floor? Bad idea in a gas chamber. That sewer connects to the SS Hospital across the street - you noticed that too, right? Lots of SS patients must have been killed by the fumes.

Do tell.

Just goes to show that Mack_the_Knife has never been to Auschwitz and hasn't a clue. I can't stand it when people of his kind pretend that they've been to some place yet haven't a clue what's even there. He's just telling fibs.

 

[krastner]

Shaun: when you describe the German people as destructive I have to take offense at that statement. First of all the German "people " as you ncall them are made up of many different peoples from the Hessians to the prussians to the Bavarians in the soouth. They are all about as different as you can get from each other. You have, evidently, never lived in Germany with them or you would know better. Many people try and villify the German people but that is just media propaganda at work.
Mack...I don't really know what to say about you except that you should change your medication. You really visites oschwitz...I do not think that it was ever called that, except that I think there is a little polish village by that name somewhere. Perhaps that's where you got the name from..when you were buying bread from the ovens you speak of that you saw. If in your muddled up mind actually visited Auschwitz, then the so called gas chambers" you saw were actually built after the war..
Unculbach I don't think that you can quote facts and stats to him. I think you are far over his head...which I might add seems to be stuck up another rather oderous part of his anatomy.

Woody you are right about the jews seperating themselves from the reast of the country they lived in, however, let's seperate the real Jews from the european variety from the crimeria and turkey from the real semitic jews of Abraham. Let's seperate them from the zionist jews that declared war on Germany after the Balfour declaration was instigated. Let's make a distinction from the Jews that rule Israel today and the real Jews that are persecuted ,by those calling themselves Jews, along with the Palestinians. There are Jews and there are zionist jews..

In the future I wish that all on the forum here who call me and Woody anti-semitic would hence forth refer to me as a racist to zionist jews.

Now...now Lovelynice..lets not be so nice to mack..let's call him what he really is..not a fibber but an out and out LIAR

 

[Sean Renaud]

You are right, I never lived in Germany. However I didn't mean to say that the Germans are destructive. Hell I didn't even truly mean that Germans were destructive. At the moment German=Nazi under the rule of Adolf Hitler. Anything beyond that was my own fault for not properly articulating my meaning. I apologize.

 

[unculbact]

Mack...IYou really visites oschwitz...I do not think that it was ever called that, except that I think there is a little polish village by that name somewhere. Perhaps that's where you got the name from..

The Polish name for the town is "Osweicem". He wasn't even close.

 

[mack_the_knife]

Christ. I was not even nine years old and went on a bus tour while on vacation with my folks in 1976. Just how many obscure spellings and odd maps was I supposed to google in such a short time? I suppose I should have bought the wall-sized poster-map of the compound to keep the memory fresh in my head.

 

[Lovelynice]

Christ. I was not even nine years old and went on a bus tour while on vacation with my folks in 1976. Just how many obscure spellings and odd maps was I supposed to google in such a short time? I suppose I should have bought the wall-sized poster-map of the compound to keep the memory fresh in my head.

If you don't know anything about the place you shouldn't pretend that you're some kind of expert on it. Sounds like you're just making up excuses and BS to me.

 

[krastner]

If you don't know anything about the place you shouldn't pretend that you're some kind of expert on it. Sounds like you're just making up excuses and BS to me.

Hey Lovelynice..doin't forget the rest of us. mackthestrife is probably just a zionist whose job it is to muddy the waters with disinformation. Maybe he just read some zionist holocaust propaganda and is showing his Reagan button ( his asshole). Remember how Reagan spoke about how he went up the cliffs at Normandy during ww2. He was in a movie or either saw one and got his shorts all bound up over it and thought he was there. One of those sort of things. There are a lot of people like
him around. Glad there are some like you...

 

[woody54]

I didn't mean to imply that the US's crimes were less than Germany's. I was suggesting that the US's crimes are not the same. You know like a suicide bomber is different from a serial killer. Even if they get the same body count, even if they both die in the end. The mentality is different and saying they are the same means that you will never be able to properly deal with it because you are mis-diagnosing.

Internal Politics aside, there is no difference. Both countries began aggressive invasions against non threatening countries to further their political agendas and in doing so, tens of thousands of people died. The success and extremism of the Nazis led to a war that killed more than 50 million people although most were not killed by the Nazis.
Your inference that killing someone with a knofe or killing them with a gun is bogus, denying the basic criminality of the whole deal.
Whose mentality was different. Politicians told soldiers to go somewhere and kill people... they did without question. Americans and Germans are the same on that point.

I've never believe that Osama did it anyway. Its always seemed odd to me that the super terrorist denied the greatest attack in American History. But this isn't the current subject. Besides I don't have facts to argue with other than he denied it and I don't think he would lie to us about THAT.

A lot of what Osama has said is available on the net. Al Jazeera doesnt suppress it like US sites do because much of what he said has an air of reason to it, perhaps almost more than the warmongering rhetoric that comes from Washington. You have to read it and decide for yourself.

So you quote all the people who lost? I don't hear to many people criticize the allies in WWI. The north in the Civil War (I might be black but the north was still wrong.) The Jews (As you've spent so much time arguing) are never wrong and the might they wield is economic but as the Cold war has proven money are slowly (and hopefully forever and completely) replacing guns. Might in one way or another is the only thing that human truly understand. It is the way we are wired. You work with the might of intelect. Which I greatly respect. But it is still a matter of imposing your will, your thoughts onto others. You don't hold a gun, you hold an encyclopedia. I personally prefer the dollar.

History is a vast subject and except for the Holocaust, there are many views and interpretations of historical events and the actions of those involved.
There are many books that are critical of Allied war efforts in both wars but these tend to not be promoted to diminish the popular view that the west is right in all things.
I hate these conversations referring to Jews doing this and Jews doing that.
Realistically, most Jews are of little importance in the scheme of things. But there is a group that certainly exerts influence that is world changing. This group is analagous to a similar cabal of top Catholics that operate out of the Vatican through such groups as P2 that are truly political and influential in world developments. When world governments and security organisations court these people with money, you know something is rotten in the State of Denmark. Neil Bush is an insider in this dark arena.

In reality, violence will always be what rules men because that is the nature of men, even though we all supposedly aspire to peace and harmony.
The problem is we are not all the same, and there will always be some with the "drive" to enforce particular views/policies. Also humans are overpopulating the world and depopulation becomes a serious thought as the problem gets worse. One suggestion I have seen is that when the oil runs down, industrial production as we know it will diminish leading to widespread almost feudal survival for many. This would cut the world population back to a sustainable level of 2 - 3 billion while the haves protect their resources with military might.

I don't mean this as tearing down your point, but do you have more than circumstansial evidence that AIDS is a man made disease. I've heard this belief before, granted I heard it was released by "The Man" to kill blacks and gays. The Jewish part wasn't tacked on at the time but hearing the same myth from multiple angles makes me curious.

There is quite a bit on the net describing potential for this concept but it firmly ranks as a conspiracy theory at the moment because there is no way sensitive information on this would ever be released even if it were true.
The scenario is very compelling though, knowing the types of people who were involved and prevailing attitudes.

I didn't say Bush was great. Or even good. Or anything positive about him. I said that if the Jews take over the world they probably won't write the history books to say. "We mad played that bitch yo!" And if they don't take over then it is likely that nobody but you and likeminded individuals will ever know that he's being played.

Look, I see things that are transforming the world to one that suits One World Government and a 1984 type control of populations.
I love the Protocols because the concepts matches in so well, almost as well as 1984.
In these changes , that we all can see when we look back, have happened under the guise of necessary changes for some pressing reason or other that are generally of dubious value in reality.
For example, we now have to get to the airport three hours before a flight to meet "necessary" security requirements, yet we have never ever had a security issue of that nature in this country. The brainwashing element is strong in this as daily we kill many more people without a second thought on the road , than have ever died on hijacked aeroplanes. It has no logic but meets a political agenda only. We are being retrained to passively submit to authoritarian control.
I am bemused by the Jew takeover concept also because the US has , quite unnecessarily, adopted the concept of the Noahide Laws by recognising their special nature in US Law. These are Laws that define that Jews operate on a different , higher level of justice than everyone else.
Christians are blaspemous idolators and the Law sees them beheaded. Christmas is on the way out in America.

Read the following, given George Bush I, qualifies racially as Jewish under Israeli Law. What was the motivation at that point in history

http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1090.html
the Encyclopedia Americana continues its explanation of the Noahide Laws, "Throughout the ages, scholars have viewed the Noahide Laws as a link between Judaism and Christianity, as universal norms of ethical conduct, as a basic concept of international law, or as a guarantee of fundamental human rights for all." This explanation leaves one to believe that both Jews and Gentiles are bound by these seven laws; however, Don Bell reports from Jewish sources that the Jew who lives according to the Torah is exempt from these seven laws. In other words, these seven Noahide Laws were meant for the Gentiles only!! They are meant to be a substitute for the Ten Commandments. At this point, we need to briefly list these seven Noahide Laws.

Thou shalt not engage in idol worship.
Thou shalt not blaspheme God.
Thou shalt not shed innocent blood of a human nor fetus nor ailing person who has a limited time to live.
Thou shalt not engage in bestial, incestuous, adulterous, or homosexual relations nor commit...rape.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt establish laws and courts of law to administer these laws, including the death penalty for those who kill, administered only if there is one testifying eyewitness (Note: The Jewish Law, found in Deuteronomy 17:6, requires the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses before one can be executed. In fact, the last sentence of verse 6 specifically states, "...he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness". This should be our first clue that these seven Noahide Laws are nothing more than a clever counterfeit of God's Ten Commandments).
Thou shalt not be cruel to animals.

The penalty for violating any of these Noahide Laws is spelled out on page 1192 of the Encyclopedia Judaica, "... violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation." Wow, in other words, if one person steps forward to accuse a Gentile of violating any one of these seven laws, that testimony alone would be enough to decapitate the accused. A person could be put to death for the flimsy accusation of being cruel to animals, and based on the lying testimony of one person!! Notice, there is no assumption of innocence until proven guilty, nor of the prosecution having to prove their case. No, on the accusation of one person, the accused may be legally decapitated.

Now that I have your attention, let us examine further Public Law 102-14, which set the Noahide Laws as the basis for International Law, (read United Nations) to which all American law must conform. This public law singles out one Jewish group for special honor, saying that they embody the principles of these Noahide Laws. This group is the ultra-orthodox Lubavitch Movement, known for its strict adherence to the smallest detail of the Talmud.

So given violation of Noahide Laws engenders the penalty of decapitation, perhaps you should google Rex 84 ask wonder why the US need prison camps to hold several million people and a massive fleet of boxcars with shackles fitted, all ready and waiting.... for what? All the Christians? the Muslims? all the One World Order dissenters? It has to be for something like that.

Its easy to see why the Palestinians will never see an honest negotiation for a settlement.

 

[Sean Renaud]

No no you completely misunderstand. A person who kills you with a knife and a person who kill you with a gun are the same. And as far as criminality goes the man with the bomb is in the exact same boat. What I'm saying here is that the techniques you use to catch, and correct a man who is willing to blow himself up to kill you is entirely different from the technique you need to catch Jeffery Dahmer. The mentality is different, the motivation is different. Its an entirely different animal.

I wish I could say I honestly believed that violence would be done away with soon. But it won't, eventually (probably when nukes become too easy to build) it will severely diminish. At least hopefully.

I still say that in the vast majority of wars the winners are going to be viewed as right. Primarily because they killed everybody who disagreed with them.

You don't really have to be to airports 3 hours in advance. I fly plenty (or did up until last year) and I was rarely there that early.

Christmas is another issue that I don't care to get into right now. Though the short version of my opinion. Christmas shouldn't be a national holiday (ie government jobs shouldn't HAVE to stop for it) It seems to me that it goes against separation of Church and State. But as far as Wal-Mart saying Merry Christmas. Hell they should be able to have signs throughout the store that read Jesus is the Reason for the Season if they want. Its just a shame that people can't seem to separate private rights from government obligations.

Honestly I think I beat you on the Bush arguement so I'll drop it. (Note I never said he wasn't being played I said history. At least widely accepted history will never read that he was some ones bitch.)

And you are right, both countries are morally wrong in what they are doing. My biggest complaint against Bush however is that I feel he lied to the American people about his reasons. I do believe that as a whole Imperialism works and that many of the world wide issues we have now is because at some point. The white man which love him or hate him is the single dominant race got into a guilt trip. It went from "I came, I saw, I conquered (and subsequently improved the lives of the backwards nations I now rule by bringing them into the modern world) To my grandfather came, he saw, and I feel really bad about it. (And now we have substantial third world nations who lack the money and technology to improve themselves.) I'm sorry, 3 cents a day isn't going to improve little Ackbar's nation. But becoming American so that people with money will move their to be on the ground floor of a new market will.

 

[manamus]

Hey yall. This is my way of saying hello or whatever. Krastner got the administrator of another forum by inviting me and others here. Yes I do agree with him on the zionist issue. So knock off all the snot about trolls and all that. It don't fly with me. So far I see that this guy So far on this forum I see that Krastner is an asshole that no one likes. Well so am I. I will say that Woody54 and lovely nice seem to be good folks.

Now there is one who calls himself mack the knife and this character sounds real fucked up. Sean seems to be protesting too much. Other than that I think I am going to enjoy myself here. (wringing hands in glee) Oh I have an avatar but the damned options section of my cp will not allow me to put it up. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[Peregrinator]

Hey yall. This is my way of saying hello or whatever. Krastner got the administrator of another forum by inviting me and others here. Yes I do agree with him on the zionist issue. So knock off all the snot about trolls and all that. It don't fly with me. So far I see that this guy So far on this forum I see that Krastner is an asshole that no one likes. Well so am I. I will say that Woody54 and lovely nice seem to be good folks.

Now there is one who calls himself mack the knife and this character sounds real fucked up. Sean seems to be protesting too much. Other than that I think I am going to enjoy myself here. (wringing hands in glee) Oh I have an avatar but the damned options section of my cp will not allow me to put it up. Can anyone enlighten me?

Welcome to Lit. You have to have a hundred posts before you can put up and avatar.

Have fun here.

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

My biggest complaint against Bush however is that I feel he lied to the American people about his reasons.

Let me ask you a question.

Have you ever stated something you believed to be fact and later found out you were wrong?

Did that make you a liar?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes. And I won't really argue this because it is a feeling. I feel that he knew that the Iraqi government did not have sufficient WMD's to justify a war. That is my personal feeling, it has never really been proven which is why I don't really argue against it.

Personally if Bush had said I want to kill Saddam Hussien because he made fun of my daddy I would have shrugged and gone to Iraq with an M16.

 

[woody54]

I still say that in the vast majority of wars the winners are going to be viewed as right. Primarily because they killed everybody who disagreed with them.

Winners get the first crack at writing history, combined with the fact that the winners population, in thinking they were on the right side anyway, would never accept an outsiders assessment of the situation. People in the US still wont accept that the US cornered the Japanese into WWII as a deliberate political action, but they did and most Americans still think they are on a crusade in Iraq to save the people from themselves even though their culture extend over millenis so they are no "Johnny come lately" in culture.
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You don't really have to be to airports 3 hours in advance. I fly plenty (or did up until last year) and I was rarely there that early.
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Try an international flight out of New Zealand. We get penalised for American paranoia and their insistence on the criteria passengers must meet.

Christmas is another issue that I don't care to get into right now. Though the short version of my opinion. Christmas shouldn't be a national holiday (ie government jobs shouldn't HAVE to stop for it) It seems to me that it goes against separation of Church and State. But as far as Wal-Mart saying Merry Christmas. Hell they should be able to have signs throughout the store that read Jesus is the Reason for the Season if they want. Its just a shame that people can't seem to separate private rights from government obligations.

You are in denial of the attitudes of your Founding Fathers who deliberately left religion as a free choice even though they all revered the Bible and their God. The roots of America are through a Christian religious sect and it still shows. If you bothered to read the Chabad link from my last post, you will clearly see where the pressure to dissolve Christian public displays comes from. The more Judaised America becomes, the more Christian expression will be depressed. The Talmud is very clear on how to deal with these heretics.

Honestly I think I beat you on the Bush arguement so I'll drop it. (Note I never said he wasn't being played I said history. At least widely accepted history will never read that he was some ones bitch.)

I'm sorry but did you pose an argument for Bush?
If you learn anything about George Bush II, you will realise he was a rich wastrel with no business acumen and spent his life involved with Daddies political campaigns. He has no personal achievements except becoming a drunk.
This pliable victim of the hard right Corporatist set was injected into politics at Presidential level with no experience, relying on his affable public nature to carry off the puppetry scam.
No other President has been so lampooned for his inabilities and explains why he wont expose himself to the general public.
His training is rooted in Corporatist exploitation even though he couldn/t pull it off himself so he understands only that money is for rich people and his snout has been in the public trough up to his eyeballs on their behalf ever since he got into the Whitehouse.
His political strategies are not his. Read his first campaign speeches. He is a major duplicitous liar(which correlates with his record) or his strategy changed once he became President(because the Neocon agenda was hidden from the public).After that his course has been so close to that of Israels strategy, it would seem they direct the US polices.

I do believe that as a whole Imperialism works and that many of the world wide issues we have now is because at some point. The white man which love him or hate him is the single dominant race got into a guilt trip. It went from "I came, I saw, I conquered (and subsequently improved the lives of the backwards nations I now rule by bringing them into the modern world) To my grandfather came, he saw, and I feel really bad about it. (And now we have substantial third world nations who lack the money and technology to improve themselves.) I'm sorry, 3 cents a day isn't going to improve little Ackbar's nation. But becoming American so that people with money will move their to be on the ground floor of a new market will.

History has shared around the dominant position depending on who was technologically more superior at the time.

The Mongols dominated vast tracts of Central Asia controlling world trade in the era. The Arabs, under the flag of Islam swept right into France and Eastern Europe because they were the most advanced civilisation of the era,
technically and educationally.

Europeans only gained dominance after they discovered the capitalistic benefits of raping and pillaging the assets of weaker nations in the New World.
Remeber it took an Arab navigator to show Columbus how to get to Ameica and back because Europeans were still worried about falling off the edge then.
The vast wealth stolen from the Americas, Asia and Africa at the point of a gun, set up European dominance and once the industrial revolution happened, dominace was entrenched . America still follows this basic capitalism at the point of a gun, Europe having been neutered by two destructive wars.

Imperialism is a short term strategy and poor Akbar is enslaved by a western world extorting anything of value for themselves at rates that ensure that the victims remain impoverished under the control of compliant corrupt leaderships managed by the West. The Middle east and Africa validate this point.

The impoverishment of nations is generally managed by the west through the monetary system, one of their constructs, so countries getting out of line can be crippled. Cuba is a classic example of western bloodymindedness , going against the public will of a country.

 

[woody54]

Let me ask you a question.

Have you ever stated something you believed to be fact and later found out you were wrong?

Did that make you a liar?

The Bushistas never just made a faux pas, they created "new realities" based on lies and propaganda and when it blew up in their faces, psychopath like, they never flinched and just adopted a new realitiy for the revised situation.
These men have masters degrees in lying.

The Bush regime ignored the intelligence that didnt fit their strategy and manufactured a new version of bits of it to make their own quilt of lies.

Maybe this is all too hard for a dickwad rightwingnut for you to contemplate because it reflects badly on the Zionists.

 

[woody54]

Yes. And I won't really argue this because it is a feeling. I feel that he knew that the Iraqi government did not have sufficient WMD's to justify a war. That is my personal feeling, it has never really been proven which is why I don't really argue against it.

Personally if Bush had said I want to kill Saddam Hussien because he made fun of my daddy I would have shrugged and gone to Iraq with an M16.

There is a 12 year history of UN investigation and inspection in Iraq, the progressive reports of which indicate Iraq became neutralised as a war threat.
The draft report which Bush saw before his invasion, clearly indicated no WMD could be found in thw country, despite free and open investigations of any location they wanted to inspect.
This is a major reason why Bush had to go it alone and not seek a spurious validation for his war through the UN. Russia and China had already indicated the evidence could not justify an invasion so they would veto any Security Council resolution for military action.

Going to war is a trained response in a militaristic country. Canadians are trained differently.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We seem to be close enough to agreeing on why history is recorded the way it is so I'll drop that.

Never flown to NZ, only to Singapore and out of Germany. Still point taken.

Are we agreeing or disagreeing on Christmas displays and goverment religion? I'm not really sure. I understand that the FF were Christians and that Jews make up a large portion of the people who are against Christmas. Probably because Islam doesn't really have a holiday in that part of the year and agnostics and aethiests couldn't give two shits. For me Christmas=Present day. So while I won't count it against you I think that where the pressure comes from is rather irrelevant.

My argument for Bush was that he will not be recorded in history as being a Zionist Puppet. And you really haven't said anything to prove that history will ever read that he was. (Note I never said he was or wasn't. Its simply a matter of I can't see an outcome that has that written in 5th grade history.)

Yes history does show that the dominant peoples are who ever are more advanced technologically. Now I suppose you could make a case that the they were only superior killers. In all fairness it would be hard, if not impossible to truly put that particular argument down. So I won't try.

What I'm saying is that if a nation is technologically superior in all or most ways does it not stand to reason that the conquered peoples are overall better off now? Do you believe that if American money and technology were put to work in Etheopia that we couldn't end their starving at the very least. Probably a few other problems as well.

Imperialism is a short-term plan, that can last hundreds of years. Do you have a long term plan? I'm all about finding a better solution.

I don't approve of capitalism by gun. I know it is a fact in a lot places though. I wish it weren't, once violence is brought into a solution it stops being capitalism and becomes theft. It doesn't matter how smart you are, how well prepared, how well thought out your plans are. It just matters if you can kill the other guy and that is a sad fact of life.

One question though and I don't mean this to be offensive but are you American? And if so why do you stay when it seems to me that you disagree with just about everything America has done, pretty much ever. I understand I have a rather narrow view of you since I've never seen you post on other issues. Or if I did I agreed with you and thus didn't notice you.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The Bushistas never just made a faux pas, they created "new realities" based on lies and propaganda and when it blew up in their faces, psychopath like, they never flinched and just adopted a new realitiy for the revised situation.
These men have masters degrees in lying.

The Bush regime ignored the intelligence that didnt fit their strategy and manufactured a new version of bits of it to make their own quilt of lies.

Maybe this is all too hard for a dickwad rightwingnut for you to contemplate because it reflects badly on the Zionists.

If I'm not mistaken the terms of peace in the Gulf War were that we (The UN) could do inspections on any of his facilities any time we (The UN) wanted. With that said when he kicked out inspectors in '97 we had reason to go to war. We didn't but he violated the treaty right then. My problem with the war is the reason we went, not that we went.

 

[krastner]

Yes. And I won't really argue this because it is a feeling. I feel that he knew that the Iraqi government did not have sufficient WMD's to justify a war. That is my personal feeling, it has never really been proven which is why I don't really argue against it.

Personally if Bush had said I want to kill Saddam Hussien because he made fun of my daddy I would have shrugged and gone to Iraq with an M16.

Let's see Shaun you WOULD hjave gone to war in Iraq? Shaun have you ever concidered that in a few years you will mature some , hopefully. Remember you will have to be aware of things you have said here when you do. Stop saying stupid idiot things while you can. They will come back and haunt you. How the hell can anyone say that they would have gone to war with Iraq for any reason other than if Iraq had sent an invasion forse on our shores.

Did you see where the judges in his case sent reporters out of the courtroom because Saddam would have said something that the bushites did not want the people to hear. bush is a cheat and a liar and a outright bastard shit for brains and you would have fought for him? Man you are not only confused you sound retarted.

Hi Manamus....see you made it here. Those loosers on the other forum were in la la land.

 

[Sean Renaud]

No, I wouldn't have. I personally don't see what we gained from it.

 

[unculbact]

Internal Politics aside, there is no difference. Both countries began aggressive invasions against non threatening countries to further their political agendas and in doing so, tens of thousands of people died. The success and extremism of the Nazis led to a war that killed more than 50 million people although most were not killed by the Nazis.

I’d scarcely describe Poland as a “non-threatening” country. In the twenty years between 1919 and 1939, Poland went to war or threatened war against every one of their neighbors. Here’s an interesting example.

The Polish-Lithuanian Crisis of 1938

http://www.lituanus.org/1984_2/84_2_03.htm


Finding out information about the “dictatorship of the generals”, which began in 1926, isn’t easy.

But some points stick out. In 1934, minority rights in Poland were annulled, and German, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Gypsy, Slovakian and especially Ukrainian ethnics found themselves under savage repression, including the first ever concentration camps in Poland, like the one at Bereza Kartuzka.

Guerrilla wars and insurrections were common, especially in East Galacia and the western Ukraine.

Hitler, under domestic pressure to protect ethnic Germans on former German lands almost went to war with Poland over the repressions, but the peace treaty he hammered out with Jozef Pilsudski averted that. Hitler secured minority rights for ethnic Germans in Poland and also ended the economic boycott of Poland that had existed since 1925, revitalizing the Polish economy, especially in western areas that had been part of the Kaiser’s Reich, which needed German material goods and products. This had some interesting results: On September 2, 1939, except for 80 British-built Hurricane fighters, the Polish Air Force was made up of German aircraft purchased during that time.

Finding out what was going on in Poland at the time of the Danzig crisis is difficult. Polish repression and acts of aggression against Germans in Danzig are well documented, the reason why Hitler wanted an extraterritorial highway there, but the Polish threat against Germany is hard to evaluate.

Poznan Army, the westernmost of the eight Polish armies, was arrayed in an offensive posture, preparing for the “march on Berlin” that the Poles had been threatening since the Battle of Annaberg in 1921. Polish ambitions had long demanded their border at the Oder River, but whether or not the Poles were actually planning to invade Germany sometime in the fall of 1939 is not easy to determine. As it was, Poznan Army's offensive posture was it's doom, it's forward position leaving it vulnerable to easy encirclement.

Whatever the case, on September 2, 1939, the following nations declared war on Poland: Germany, Lithuania, Hungary, Slovakia, and the Soviet Union. Of all her neighbors, only Romania remained friendly to Poland. Poland's aggressive policies, backed up with an almost hysterical belligerence, had made too many enemies.

EDIT NOTE: Whoops. The Soviet Union didn't declare war until two weeks after the war began. My bad.