An open discussion on "cheating"

[zipman]

Re: Re: No arguments - BUT!

Its not so bad 'being on your own'. Why let your life slip away in an unhappy marriage? THAT'S the part of cheating I just don't understand. There are an aweful lot of people out there putting up with either cheating spouses or unsexual spouses. Why?

Perhaps there are a lot of people who want more than "it's not so bad."

There is a lot more to marriage (or relationships) than just sex. That is just one, very important component.

While you are perfectly free to feel that "marriage is for suckers" I think you are trying to justify your inability to believe that two people can be happy with each other, and I have seen enough marriages that work to know that it is possible, if two people communicate, compromise and don't take each other for granted.

 

[MorgaineLaFay]

MT and Intrigued, nice posts.

This particular bottom line has been said, but, I want to say it again, so bite me. (not too hard, please)

If you are in a relationship and choose it to be monogamous, then, any intimate relationship outside of the first relationship is cheating. Period. I had qualified relationship as a committed one, but, decided that it need not be, to be cheating. The keys are, monogamous and choice.

This doesn't have necessarily anything to do with religion and spirituality. It's a decision made by the participants, between the participants, for the participants.

I truly think that having a monogamous relationship can be one of the most fulfilling events of your life. That one person, and all the mushy things that that entails. Call me a romantic, putz, whatever you like.

I read your first post - I'm sorry, really.

The only thing I'd like to add, is cheating starts long before two people jump into bed together. At least, as far as I am concerned.

 

[8ball]

I read your first post - I'm sorry, really.

The only thing I'd like to add, is cheating starts long before two people jump into bed together. At least, as far as I am concerned.

Thank you, and you are absolutely correct. Cheating is not the disease, it's a symptom. My particular situation, a relationship based on falsehoods was the disease. And my inability to see through the facade didn't help.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Re: Re: Re: No arguments - BUT!

Perhaps there are a lot of people who want more than "it's not so bad."
There is a lot more to marriage (or relationships) than just sex. That is just one, very important component.
While you are perfectly free to feel that "marriage is for suckers" I think you are trying to justify your inability to believe that two people can be happy with each other, and I have seen enough marriages that work to know that it is possible, if two people communicate, compromise and don't take each other for granted.

You're absolutely right zip. I was out of line. I guess I don't see that many happy marriages. My parents and my sisters seem ok - but most of my married friends seem pretty miserable most of the time. I totally agree that two people can be happy with eachother! I don't think marriage has much to do with that though. I think marriage is an outdated, financially ruinous contract. I think if your spouse refuses to have sex with you then you have every right to find it elsewhere - and maybe it shouldn't even effect your marriage. Neither one of you is holding up your vows? And that no matter what you think - statistically your marriage will fail and your spouse will cheat. I think that's a sucker's game........

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: No arguments - BUT!

You're absolutely right zip. I was out of line. I guess I don't see that many happy marriages. My parents and my sisters seem ok - but most of my married friends seem pretty miserable most of the time. I totally agree that two people can be happy with eachother! I don't think marriage has much to do with that though. I think marriage is an outdated, financially ruinous contract. I think if your spouse refuses to have sex with you then you have every right to find it elsewhere - and maybe it shouldn't even effect your marriage. Neither one of you is holding up your vows? And that no matter what you think - statistically your marriage will fail and your spouse will cheat. I think that's a sucker's game........

I think "marriage is an outdated, financially ruinous contract" only when it ends and lawyers get involved.

I think the biggest reason that marriages fail is because many people don't put the work into them that any successful relationship needs to work. Years ago, people weren't so quick to "cut and run" as they are today. Too often, people opt for the easier route and then complain about their "failed" marriages. Today's society is all about blame and being a victim, not about love (which I have never heard you mention in any of your negative "marriage" posts) or sacrifice.

Many marriages today fail because of the poor choices people make in who they want to spend their life with and why they want that person. To blame that on the institution of marriage seems like yet another example of not taking responsibility for their own actions and decisions. JMHO!

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Apparently I am missing the 'partnering gene' or it has been bashed to bits - never to re-emerge. I totally believe in partners and love and committment - for those that choose. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying. All I'm saying is that - cheating or not cheating - most marriages end up not working. I choose not to go there again - I question why anyone would. I'm not trying to STOP anyone. I'm not trying to undermine anything you feel or think about marriage. I'm just saying after looking at the numbers I'm not interested. Out of 10 of you married people reading this post right now - 7 of you will divorce.

 

[huskie]

If my wife cheated on me one or even a few times, randomly?? I simply would NOT want to know. I don't mean an affair!

We have a child, a house....... god I just don't need that kind of hassle! If I new, say it was shoved in my face and theres no dening it, then I would be forced to act. Bur damn I just don't wanna know!

 

[zipman]

Apparently I am missing the 'partnering gene' or it has been bashed to bits - never to re-emerge. I totally believe in partners and love and committment - for those that choose. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying. All I'm saying is that - cheating or not cheating - most marriages end up not working. I choose not to go there again - I question why anyone would. I'm not trying to STOP anyone. I'm not trying to undermine anything you feel or think about marriage. I'm just saying after looking at the numbers I'm not interested. Out of 10 of you married people reading this post right now - 7 of you will divorce.

What are the statistics for "relationships" that fail, where the people do NOT end up as "life partners?" I would bet it is a lot higher than 70%.

Then what do you do, just have one-night stands because the "numbers" aren't in your favor?

 

[BirdsWife]

My partner and I have wide open minds, mine a good bit more so than his. We expose ourselves to ideas, not interactions with other people. We take those ideas, be it stories, movies, reading something someone else experienced, and bring the idea to the table, to determine if its something that moves us. We do not bring the actual person to the table. It may be intriguing as hell to talk about bringing that person to the table, but we're unable to ever just experience another person without experiencing another person, and all that comes with them. We don't truly want to experience another person, or we'd do so. We've explored that in a fantasy kind of way, and realized easily that in each scenario, what moved us was eachothers response to the scenario, it had not a damn thing to do with the other person. We couldn't stop talking about what we'd do to eachother.
We move eachother like crazy.

Love, intimacy, intense wild sex, intrigue and mystery can all be had between JUST two people, just as hotly as the (so called) "buffet" seems to offer.

You couldn't have expressed my feelings any better.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

What are the statistics for "relationships" that fail, where the people do NOT end up as "life partners?" I would bet it is a lot higher than 70%.
Then what do you do, just have one-night stands because the "numbers" aren't in your favor?

Good question - I have no idea. I'm pretty sure once you've mingled money and last names you're pretty much considered married and would have to legally divorce anyway.

No - I'm not much into one nite stands. Why would that be my only option? I'm extremely comfortable with myself. I don't have the 'need' to have a constant male companion at my side. I'd say about half the time since my divorce (20 yrs ago) I've had a 'boyfriend' or SO or lover.

Hey - its not perfect either. I am not saying that my opinion is right and yours is wrong. You keep trying to make it sound like I'm attacking you and your beliefs personally. I'm not. I just don't believe that monogamy or marriage work very well. the statisitics back me up - that's all I'm saying.

 

[8ball]

Good question - I have no idea. I'm pretty sure once you've mingled money and last names you're pretty much considered married and would have to legally divorce anyway.

No - I'm not much into one nite stands. Why would that be my only option? I'm extremely comfortable with myself. I don't have the 'need' to have a constant male companion at my side. I'd say about half the time since my divorce (20 yrs ago) I've had a 'boyfriend' or SO or lover.

Hey - its not perfect either. I am not saying that my opinion is right and yours is wrong. You keep trying to make it sound like I'm attacking you and your beliefs personally. I'm not. I just don't believe that monogamy or marriage work very well. the statisitics back me up - that's all I'm saying.

Question. Does that mean that when you have a boyfriend or SO, that you sleep with other men? (not a flame, serious question)

 

[zipman]

Good question - I have no idea. I'm pretty sure once you've mingled money and last names you're pretty much considered married and would have to legally divorce anyway.

No - I'm not much into one nite stands. Why would that be my only option? I'm extremely comfortable with myself. I don't have the 'need' to have a constant male companion at my side. I'd say about half the time since my divorce (20 yrs ago) I've had a 'boyfriend' or SO or lover.

Hey - its not perfect either. I am not saying that my opinion is right and yours is wrong. You keep trying to make it sound like I'm attacking you and your beliefs personally. I'm not. I just don't believe that monogamy or marriage work very well. the statisitics back me up - that's all I'm saying.

I don't have the "need" to have a constant female companion by my side, but I do have the "desire" to share the rest of my life with one person.

Actually I don't think you are attacking me personally at all. However, I feel ALL of your posts about this topic were negative and disparaging and I wanted to provide an alternative for anyone who doesn't want to take such a "glass half empty" viewpoint on marriage. If you are going to make comments like "marriage is for suckers," you should expect that people who are married or engaged to be married will not appreciate being called a sucker and will try and refute your arguments. There is a difference between that and refuting your decisions.

Nothing personal on my end, crazybbwgirl.

 

[Refulgent]

I don't have the "need" to have a constant female companion by my side, but I do have the "desire" to share the rest of my life with one person.

Actually I don't think you are attacking me personally at all. However, I feel ALL of your posts about this topic were negative and disparaging and I wanted to provide an alternative for anyone who doesn't want to take such a "glass half empty" viewpoint on marriage. If you are going to make comments like "marriage is for suckers," you should expect that people who are married or engaged to be married will not appreciate being called a sucker and will try and refute your arguments. There is a difference between that and refuting your decisions.

Nothing personal on my end, crazybbwgirl.

A series of good posts there, Zipman7.

Where is a good link for that 70% number by the way? I was under the impression that for *first* marriages in the US, about half end in divorce. I believe that the 70% figure is more accurate when you look at 2nd and 3rd marriages.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Sorry Zip - you're right my bad. I got carried away with the snide remarks. Just feel fresh I guess. And I liked your rather sweet defense of marriage. Nice to see.

8Ball - no - I don't have a problem being monogamous. And I've never had a relationship where my s/o wasn't faithful.

All I'm saying is its pretty obvious that marriage doesn't work more than half the time. Why do so many keep doing it? What is so attractive about latching yourself to somebody for 'life' when there's less than a 50% chance that it will work? ewwww

What is so wrong/awful about just being single? You can tell me about all the wonderful things that your marriage means and that's great. More power to you. God bless everyone who can make it work. Its just not for me. Its obviously not for more than 50% of the married couples out there.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

A series of good posts there, Zipman7.
Where is a good link for that 70% number by the way? I was under the impression that for *first* marriages in the US, about half end in divorce. I believe that the 70% figure is more accurate when you look at 2nd and 3rd marriages.

Oops! I think you're right. I think somewhere along the line I got the marriage stats and the unfaithful stats mixed up! (50% of first marriages - and something like 70% of second. But almost 80% unfaithful at some point or another!)

 

[8ball]

Sorry Zip - you're right my bad. I got carried away with the snide remarks. Just feel fresh I guess. And I liked your rather sweet defense of marriage. Nice to see.

8Ball - no - I don't have a problem being monogamous. And I've never had a relationship where my s/o wasn't faithful.

All I'm saying is its pretty obvious that marriage doesn't work more than half the time. Why do so many keep doing it? What is so attractive about latching yourself to somebody for 'life' when there's less than a 50% chance that it will work? ewwww

What is so wrong/awful about just being single? You can tell me about all the wonderful things that your marriage means and that's great. More power to you. God bless everyone who can make it work. Its just not for me. Its obviously not for more than 50% of the married couples out there.

Thanks for answering. This thread isn't only about cheating when married.

I guess, that, I, for one, don't have such a negative outlook on marriage. If you enter a marriage thinking, gee, I hope I'm not in the bracket that ends in divorce, I think you have just increased your odds of it ending in divorce.
And there is nothing wrong with being single, either. I don't think that's what Zipman was trying to say at all.

 

[zipman]

A series of good posts there, Zipman7.

Where is a good link for that 70% number by the way? I was under the impression that for *first* marriages in the US, about half end in divorce. I believe that the 70% figure is more accurate when you look at 2nd and 3rd marriages.

Thanks and welcome to Lit!

crazybbwgirl - No problem! I've read enough of your "non-marriage posts" to know that you are a real sweetheart!

8ball - You're right, I wasn't disparaging being single, as I've spent the vast majority of my adult life that way. I don't think crazybbwgirl took it that way either.

 

[Calamity Jane]

If you view your fidelity as rigid control by another that might explain your defensive posture.

For someone with so much insight into human nature and the psyche of the average woman on Lit, you sure suck at determining defensiveness in a person.

I DO believe that 'your' idea of fidelity is about rigid control, because it only deals with the physical. There's WAY more than that to a person and a relationship, but men like you tend to forget that and get your panties all in a bunch if someone points it out. That's fine. I'll stick to my viewpoint that there's a whole lot more to fidelity than who's cock I want some of.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Was I really being bitchy? I'm trying to be a bit more of a bitch lately. I think older, single woman should be a tad bitchy... lol

 

[intrigued]

I just have to ask...what is fidelity and what does it encompass?

 

[Refulgent]

Thanks and welcome to Lit!

Damn! I do enjoy a certain ambiguity with a new name, Zip, but don't really try to pass myself off as a newbie. Now you had to go all nice like, and I had to choose between inadvertent deception and losing the ambiguity... *sigh*

Anyway, good to see you again!

 

[CoolidgEffect]

I just have to ask...what is fidelity and what does it encompass?

It encompasses your soul. But I suspect, like real estate, everything is negotiable.

Now I have to ask, are you wearing panties in you AV?

 

[intrigued]

Nope...no new PM's.

 

[intrigued]

It encompasses your soul. But I suspect, like real estate, everything is negotiable.

Now I have to ask, are you wearing panties in you AV?

Nope.


And thanks for answering me.

 

[eagleyez]

I think monogamy is highly over-rated and obvioiusly hard to maintain. I think marriage is an old, out-dated device to keep women under control. I think if you find a mate and can both stay 'faithful' happily - more power to you. But its obvious that's not the way the majority of 'pairings' end up. Why set yourself up for defeat? Why not just be prepared to either a). leave when its obviously over. or b). accept the inevitable and deal with it. I truly think if couples looked hard at what marriage is asking of them and accept the probability of unfaithfulness they would be less likely to stray in the first place, and more apt to forgive should it happen.

well said-

forgiveness is key in both directions-

in all aspects of life-

IMHO