An open discussion on "cheating"

[8ball]

well said-

forgiveness is key in both directions-

in all aspects of life-

IMHO

Men forget, but, never forgive. Women forgive, but, never forget.

 

[Bobmi357]

Re: Re: Re: Re: No arguments - BUT!

I think if your spouse refuses to have sex with you then you have every right to find it elsewhere - and maybe it shouldn't even effect your marriage. Neither one of you is holding up your vows? And that no matter what you think - statistically your marriage will fail and your spouse will cheat. I think that's a sucker's game........

Actually in most states, lack of physical intimacy is considered grounds for divorce. Staying in a relationship where your needs are being ignored merely leads to a lot of anger and frustration.

I don't know where you're coming up with your numbers, but according to the url below, as of 1998, only 43% of marriages ended in divorce, not the 70% you're quoting.

http://www.aamft.org/Press_Room/Press_releases/stats.htm

Marriage is a commitment between two people. Whether they opt for an open or a more traditional marriage, they are still basically committing to the other person.

Frankly I couldn't survive an open marriage. And I know my marriage wouldn't survive any cheating, on either part. I'm not the jealous type, but I definitely wouldn't want my woman sleeping with someone else. In this day and age of new and exciting diseases, would you really want to risk your own health, let alone the health of the person that is supposed to be the most important person in your life?

I've been married, divorced and remarried (quite happily now for 10 yrs) and forgive me for saying this crazybbwgirl, but for someone thats never been married, you seem awful bitter on the topic.

 

[buggawugga]

there are activities which can be considered cheating also, even if it doesn't involve sex. being on the internet offers a lot of grey area, i'd be interested to hear people's perspectives on this...

for example, i'm living with my longterm bf and i wouldn't ever dream of being unfaithful to him. but recently i found myself in a situation that i know would make him uncomfortable, but if i'm not doing anything wrong and don't intend to, is it okay that i carry on with this even though he doesn't know about it?

the situation is this: i recently met someone who i find myself very attracted to. it started as harmless online flirting but a mutual attraction has developed. but throughout our conversations, it has always been very clear that we both have to be very well behaved since i have no intentions of hurting my bf. and when we've gotten together, we've been very good. just talking and laughing, nothing else. but it just feels wrong because i have these feelings outside of our relationship and although my bf knows that i go out with this person, i wasn't completely truthful about how we know each other. but is it cheating? on the one hand i'm going out with someone that i obviously feel an attraction to and who clearly is interested in me. on the other hand, we're not going to do anything wrong and aside from the attraction, we get along in an almost uncanny way.

thoughts?

 

[Squiggy]

for example, i'm living with my longterm bf and i wouldn't ever dream of being unfaithful to him. but recently i found myself in a situation that i know would make him uncomfortable, but if i'm not doing anything wrong and don't intend to, is it okay that i carry on with this even though he doesn't know about it?
the situation is this: i recently met someone who i find myself very attracted to. it started as harmless online flirting but a mutual attraction has developed. but throughout our conversations, it has always been very clear that we both have to be very well behaved since i have no intentions of hurting my bf. and when we've gotten together, we've been very good. just talking and laughing, nothing else. but it just feels wrong because i have these feelings outside of our relationship and although my bf knows that i go out with this person, i wasn't completely truthful about how we know each other. but is it cheating? on the one hand i'm going out with someone that i obviously feel an attraction to and who clearly is interested in me. on the other hand, we're not going to do anything wrong and aside from the attraction, we get along in an almost uncanny way.

thoughts?

a couple of ??'s before I could try to help..
How long have you been with said BF?
Do you picture yourself marrying or living permanently with him??
Is this other person involved with someone else??


Not to sound flippant or anything but some relationships are like dinner...
just because you're eating, it doesn't mean you can't look at the menu every once in a while..dessert might look good but dessert isn't for everybody..

(btw saw your pix and they are er..uh..umm..."w o w" )

 

[MorgaineLaFay]

Funny. The post above reminded me what I was thinking about related to this thread, while I was in the shower this morning.

Face it. Cheating is wrong. However you look at it.

The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence, only because, you don't live there. You don't have a morgage there. You aren't trying to raise children there. You're not past due on your bills there. There's no messy house over there. No dirty dishes. No un-made sex. Sex is always had at the "grass is always greener house". Ever thing is better there. So you think. Until you move in.

And then are those people who say they like to have the quote, unquote ( please imagine my fingers here) "The Open Relationship" Someone please tell me.. really what is the purpose of this?

 

[intrigued]

Funny. The post above reminded me what I was thinking about related to this thread, while I was in the shower this morning.

Face it. Cheating is wrong. However you look at it.

The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence, only because, you don't live there. You don't have a morgage there. You aren't trying to raise children there. You're not past due on your bills there. There's no messy house over there. No dirty dishes. No un-made sex. Sex is always had at the "grass is always greener house". Ever thing is better there. So you think. Until you move in.

And then are those people who say they like to have the quote, unquote ( please imagine my fingers here) "The Open Relationship" Someone please tell me.. really what is the purpose of this?

Oh Morgie, you put it so well, I'm just sighing here.
Thank you.

Which are you questioning, the point of open relationships, or this thread in general??


buggawugga...What part of your situation seems "OK" to you?
I can't help but wonder how you would feel if the roles were reversed, and it was your boyfriend having this extra curricular relationship. Would it be OK to you then?
And I'm not clear on this, you see this second person in person too??

 

[intrigued]

No, I wasn't done, dammit!

What I will NEVER understand is the comments "I found myself in a situation"..."I didn't mean for it to happen"...."but we were just friends"..."I would never cheat on them, but...".

Utter, total BULLSHIT!

When you are committed to someone, you don't show up for someone else. You cannot EVER walk through a door that you're not already standing at.

Don't show up, and you won't find yourself in these "oh, so tempting" little life altering piles of "nothing, in the end."

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No arguments - BUT!

Actually in most states, lack of physical intimacy is considered grounds for divorce. Staying in a relationship where your needs are being ignored merely leads to a lot of anger and frustration.

I've been married, divorced and remarried (quite happily now for 10 yrs) and forgive me for saying this crazybbwgirl, but for someone thats never been married, you seem awful bitter on the topic.

Oh but I was married. 20 years ago. Our problems ran more towards physical violence, not fidelity. I am all for monogamy. All I'm saying is statistically you're screwed. And I did apologize yesterday for mixing my %. Its about 70 - 80% of married people admit to being unfaithful. I've got to admit I'm a little (nicely) surprised so many are so strongly defending marriage and monogamy. I just look around at my married co-workers and friends - most of them are miserable.

 

[Pure]

I haven't seen the 'clinton' problem mentioned.

Most men's definition of 'cheating'-- wrongful sex outside the committed relationship-- is very narrow. With women it's often broad. Sometimes things never quite get discussed in detail.

Example 1: A man in a semi-legal strip club has 'lapdance' and the woman puts her tits in his face and he gets into it.

Example 1+. She gives him a handjob.

Example 2. A person Robin, 'meets' another Pat online. Robin drops a hint, and Pat sends Robin a hot and 'dirty' email, (If I were with you, I'd...). Robin , offline, masturbates to it.

Example 2+ Pat's email does not involve Robin, it's merely a very graphic description of what Pat did, a while ago, with a lover. (It's intended to get Robin off.)

1) and 1+) would NOT be called 'unfaithfulness' or 'infidelity' by many men. 2) and certainly 2+) would NOT be called unfaithfulness by some persons.

In short, Does your *Parner's * definition apply, over your own?
Have you ever said, " --- [partner], your defintion is NOT like mine, so, for the record, I'm following mine."

 

[Rubyfruit]

crazygirl, that number seems awfully high. do you have a source for it?

 

[revelator]

You cannot EVER walk through a door that you're not already standing at.

Intruiged, while I always enjoy your posts (I'm seriously considering stalking you . . . ), your words on this thread are particularly eloquent. Thank you.

Its about 70 - 80% of married people admit to being unfaithful. I've got to admit I'm a little (nicely) surprised so many are so strongly defending marriage and monogamy.

Madame, you continue to repeat the same statistic over and over - would you mind telling me from where it comes? Because I have seen other studies that report MUCH lower figures - in the 10% range. I suspect the difference is all in who you ask, how you ask, how you define the terms - and what one wants to believe.

So 43% of marriages end in divorce? Big fucking deal. Note the statistics aren't that 43% of PEOPLE or 43% of FIRST marriages end in divorce - a large chunk of that figure are second, third, etc., marriages. Reality is that about 80% of us get married and stay married.

(Perhaps a study of history is in order. The divorce rate in the USA has always been much higher than in European nations, because of the relative ease of obtaining one. The French mistress and the English "country weekend" stereotypes were how those societies dealt with spousal incompatibility - Americans got divorces. As divorce laws in Europe are eased, the divorce rate is going up, while the divorce rate in the USA is declining.)

So some magazine article says 70% of people "cheat?" Even if the number is correct (and I would like to know how that number was derived), despite what you think, that doesn't mean I'm fated to. In the 13 years I've been with the wonderful, strong, educated, sexy beauty I'm married to, I haven't even kissed another woman, and she hasn't cheated on me either.

80% of couples have children - I didn't look at that number and say "oh, well, gotta pop out a coupla rug rats now, don't I?"

Life is not some Greek tragedy written by Sophocles in which our actions are beyond our control, and I don't let statistics make my choices for me. I have a brain, a heart, a mind and a will, and I make my choices because they are right for me. The rest of the world's choices can get stuffed.



If you want to hide behind the obsolete rhetoric that Gloria and Helen used 40 years ago, that's your choice. The world, women, and their relationships to men have changed. Anyone who thinks women are subjugated by a piece of paper should ask themselves why so many strong, educated women are happy to sign it.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

divorce rates

ok - here are some numbers - I'll be truthful - I didn't read this whole page - geesh! There's a ton of info there! I'll try to get some fidelity numbers if I get a chance. But you guys are all taking this way above and beyond what I'm talking about. As I said - I'm nicely surprised to see so many defend marriage. Its just that I don't see it that way. It makes no sense to me. I'm very glad you all like it so much.

 

[8ball]

there are activities which can be considered cheating also, even if it doesn't involve sex. being on the internet offers a lot of grey area, i'd be interested to hear people's perspectives on this...

for example, i'm living with my longterm bf and i wouldn't ever dream of being unfaithful to him. but recently i found myself in a situation that i know would make him uncomfortable, but if i'm not doing anything wrong and don't intend to, is it okay that i carry on with this even though he doesn't know about it?

the situation is this: i recently met someone who i find myself very attracted to. it started as harmless online flirting but a mutual attraction has developed. but throughout our conversations, it has always been very clear that we both have to be very well behaved since i have no intentions of hurting my bf. and when we've gotten together, we've been very good. just talking and laughing, nothing else. but it just feels wrong because i have these feelings outside of our relationship and although my bf knows that i go out with this person, i wasn't completely truthful about how we know each other. but is it cheating? on the one hand i'm going out with someone that i obviously feel an attraction to and who clearly is interested in me. on the other hand, we're not going to do anything wrong and aside from the attraction, we get along in an almost uncanny way.

thoughts?

You are heading down the road already. While you make it seem harmless and you say your intentions are one thing, your actions are saying something else. Make a choice and stick with it, or, let your BF know and maybe work out some kind of open relationship. You may not be able to control what your heart feels, but, be fair about your actions, that you think your heart dictates, when considering others. If you care about your BF, then you will be fair and honest with him.

As Intrigued said, how would you feel if it was done to you?

That single question, when asked and answered honestly of oneself, is one hell of a guage for many different interactions with people in ones life.

Actions always speak louder than words. What are your actions saying?

 

[Pure]

Originally posted by crazybbwgirl
//Its about 70 - 80% of married people admit to being unfaithful. I've got to admit I'm a little (nicely) surprised so many are so strongly defending marriage and monogamy. //

The numbers I've seen are that about one half of married women and about two thirds of married men have 'cheated' *at some point*. There is a generational effect, too, I believe--younger suggests more cheating, adjusted for time of opportunity.

These same folks, 'cheaters', however, might well 'defend' marriage or monogamy-- they just aren't so good at *doing* it.

 

[intrigued]

Intruiged, while I always enjoy your posts (I'm seriously considering stalking you . . . ), your words on this thread are particularly eloquent. Thank you.

Thank you, I appreciate that. You spoke rather eloquently yourself, so actually, I thank YOU.

A stalker, huh???

 

[cowgirl heaven]

Actions always speak louder than words.

Am I the only one that is completely and utterly disgusted with this phrase??!!

My husband and I are going through a very difficult time right now much of which is brought on by this very statement. He has always and continues to say very mean, degrading, name calling, yelling, etc. statements day in and day out. How is it that those words are any less hurtful than any actions of cheating??!! Aren't they just has hazardous to the health of a marriage. So yes, we are now in this vicous circle of his nasty words and my actions of pulling away from him and seeking support and kindness from others. Neither is right in my book and I don't see how actions or words are louder than the other.

As part of my solution (mine yes, because he refuses to try anything involving outside help) to try and put our marriage back on track has been finding information to understand what is causing our problems. I have found a wonderful book "The Five Languages of Love" How to Express Heartfelt Committment to your Mate By Dr. Gary Chapman. In that he relates that every individual has their own perceptions of how they feel and recripocate love. These are also related with the five senses - Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, and Physical Touch (not just sex..but also touching.) If you aren't speaking and showing love to your mate in ways that they relate you are not filling their love tank. So to say actions speak louder than words is just not so..........they are equally needed to show love and also equal in destroying love. It's all in the perception of how people feel and respond to that love or interactions.

YIKES.......sorry I rambled. I just wanted to impress upon others how every person is an individual and that statement doesn't reflect our individuality or feelings.

 

[curious2c]

Early in our marriage my wife had an indiscretion. Ok...she cheated on me. A one nighter with an old boyfriend. We almost became a number in one of those stastistics being qouted around.

I will say that the the feelings of devestation, pain, anger, and loss can't be tallied up in some number or count. There weren't any kids at that point...it could have been far worse than it was.

For that pain and anger and all the other feelings I was hit with burned into my mind one big reason to never cheat on someone.

If you have or are the cheater...you really need to take a long hard look at your relationship. You are cheating for what reason? Is it going to be worth the aforementioned feelings if and when you get caught? Are you sure this is what you want to be doing?

If you can honestly say that it won't bother you...then get a damn divorce and move on with your life. It sure as hell may or will bother your SO.

Cheating is wrong...no matter what kind of cheating it is.


Ummm...heh...didn't mean to come on so strong...still must have issues with this whole subject.

 

[8ball]

Am I the only one that is completely and utterly disgusted with this phrase??!!

My husband and I are going through a very difficult time right now much of which is brought on by this very statement. He has always and continues to say very mean, degrading, name calling, yelling, etc. statements day in and day out. How is it that those words are any less hurtful than any actions of cheating??!! Aren't they just has hazardous to the health of a marriage. So yes, we are now in this vicous circle of his nasty words and my actions of pulling away from him and seeking support and kindness from others. Neither is right in my book and I don't see how actions or words are louder than the other.

As part of my solution (mine yes, because he refuses to try anything involving outside help) to try and put our marriage back on track has been finding information to understand what is causing our problems. I have found a wonderful book "The Five Languages of Love" How to Express Heartfelt Committment to your Mate By Dr. Gary Chapman. In that he relates that every individual has their own perceptions of how they feel and recripocate love. These are also related with the five senses - Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, and Physical Touch (not just sex..but also touching.) If you aren't speaking and showing love to your mate in ways that they relate you are not filling their love tank. So to say actions speak louder than words is just not so..........they are equally needed to show love and also equal in destroying love. It's all in the perception of how people feel and respond to that love or interactions.

YIKES.......sorry I rambled. I just wanted to impress upon others how every person is an individual and that statement doesn't reflect our individuality or feelings.

You really don't understand what that saying means, then. It in no way suggests that words are not hurtful. Example, it describes when a person says, I love you, but, their actions, in this case, meeting with someone you met online and then lying about it to your bf.

Their action of meeting with someone and then lying about it speaks louder than them telling their bf that they love them.

Ones actions should support the words that you use and vice versa. They should not be contradictory. If they are, then there is usually a lie somewhere.

The saying also suggests, that, words can be meaningless nothings. It is easier to say something nice than to do something nice, etc.

I am sorry that you took personal offense, or seem to have, but, I don't see where my statement even applies to your situation as you described it. It didn't sound like your husband was telling you how much you mean to him and how much he loves you, while at the same time, sneaking around and meeting other women. His actions then, would not have supported his words. In your case, I guess that his actions supported his words. For that, I am truly sorry.

 

[cowgirl heaven]

Ones actions should support the words that you use and vice versa. They should not be contradictory. If they are, then there is usually a lie somewhere.

The saying also suggests, that, words can be meaningless nothings. It is easier to say something nice than to do something nice, etc.

I am sorry that you took personal offense, or seem to have, but, I don't see where my statement even applies to your situation as you described it.

No offense taken or personally either- no need to be sorry . I didn't mean to come across as being upset with you personally, I'm just overly sensitive to that particular phrase right now. BUT I still disagree with the statement. A generalization such as that still implies that words don't mean as much. I know it is supposed to be within the context that it is takn. I still go back to the other statements made earlier we are all individuals who feel and express emotions uniquely.

Actually it is the opposite in my marriage, he tries to show with actions that he loves his family but his words are the exact opposite. He tries to justify his anger and hurtful statements as being less destructive by using that very statement. That my actions of pulling away and not being there emotionally are more destructive than any words he could ever say to me.

 

[revelator]

i recently met someone who i find myself very attracted to. it started as harmless online flirting but a mutual attraction has developed. but throughout our conversations, it has always been very clear that we both have to be very well behaved since i have no intentions of hurting my bf. and when we've gotten together, we've been very good. just talking and laughing, nothing else. but it just feels wrong because i have these feelings outside of our relationship and although my bf knows that i go out with this person, i wasn't completely truthful about how we know each other. but is it cheating? on the one hand i'm going out with someone that i obviously feel an attraction to and who clearly is interested in me. on the other hand, we're not going to do anything wrong and aside from the attraction, we get along in an almost uncanny way.

thoughts?

Cheating? I don't see it.

Dishonesty about how you met? Yes.

How big of a deal is that? Are you and your boyfriend expecting to be together forever? Is there any thought rattling around in your mind that this friend might make a better boyfriend?


I would never expect my wife not to be friends with a man just because there was an attraction. My wife "loves" one of my oldest friends, and it's mutual - she tells him that if I die of natural causes, she's leaving the funeral on his arm. They joke, they flirt, they have dinner when she's on business in his town - but they don't do anything else, and she doesn't keep anything from me.

I have close female friends, some of whom I've known longer than my wife. Sometimes there has been a mutual attraction - if we can be friends without the attraction getting in the way, things are great, if not, we stop spending time together.

People don't "turn off" when we make that commitment - we are going to continue to meet people, some of which we'll find attractive. You could keep everyone you meet at arm's length, and you'll miss a lot of joy. You can follow your desires, and cause a lot of pain. Or you can honor your commitment, and wring as much pleasure as you can from it.

We wring a LOT of joy from ours.

A stalker, huh???

Yeah, if you want one

I got a crew that can be there to install the hidden cameras and GPS devices tomorrow - is that convenient?

 

[8ball]

No offense taken or personally either- no need to be sorry . I didn't mean to come across as being upset with you personally, I'm just overly sensitive to that particular phrase right now. BUT I still disagree with the statement. A generalization such as that still implies that words don't mean as much. I know it is supposed to be within the context that it is takn. I still go back to the other statements made earlier we are all individuals who feel and express emotions uniquely.

Actually it is the opposite in my marriage, he tries to show with actions that he loves his family but his words are the exact opposite. He tries to justify his anger and hurtful statements as being less destructive by using that very statement. That my actions of pulling away and not being there emotionally are more destructive than any words he could ever say to me.

Thank you for responding. And I am truly sorry about your situation. For me, that old saying, has always been proven golden. And I do mean, always. I will agree that it can be a generalization, however, alot of the 'old sayings' are old sayings for a reason. They bear out to be true more often than not. And alot of them get twisted over time and many are no longer relevant.

Sounds to me, and it's really not my place to say, but, that your husband is a truly abusive, malicious manipulator of the first degree. He sounds like he is definitely trying to turn the table and place all the blame on you.

*hugs* (if you will allow it)

 

[cowgirl heaven]

Thank you for responding. And I am truly sorry about your situation. For me, that old saying, has always been proven golden. And I do mean, always. I will agree that it can be a generalization, however, alot of the 'old sayings' are old sayings for a reason. They bear out to be true more often than not. And alot of them get twisted over time and many are no longer relevant.

Sounds to me, and it's really not my place to say, but, that your husband is a truly abusive, malicious manipulator of the first degree. He sounds like he is definitely trying to turn the table and place all the blame on you.

*hugs* (if you will allow it)

Always allowed, and even better when shared with a stranger that becomes a new friend I don't know that our discussion has changed my mind but at least I am hearing another view point on it, that's why I like lit so much. There are always other opinions out there and I would love to hear anyone else's on this.

I'm not completely blameless in our marital trouble. At heart he is a good man, but he has an anger problem that has only intensified with some failures with school and work that he has experienced in the last few years. But yes, at this point he is verbally abusive and we've yet to find a solution to make things better. I'm always open to any and all suggestions...........

 

[bknight2602]

Am I the only one that is completely and utterly disgusted with this phrase??!!

My husband and I are going through a very difficult time right now much of which is brought on by this very statement. He has always and continues to say very mean, degrading, name calling, yelling, etc. statements day in and day out. How is it that those words are any less hurtful than any actions of cheating??!! Aren't they just has hazardous to the health of a marriage. So yes, we are now in this vicous circle of his nasty words and my actions of pulling away from him and seeking support and kindness from others. Neither is right in my book and I don't see how actions or words are louder than the other.

As part of my solution (mine yes, because he refuses to try anything involving outside help) to try and put our marriage back on track has been finding information to understand what is causing our problems. I have found a wonderful book "The Five Languages of Love" How to Express Heartfelt Committment to your Mate By Dr. Gary Chapman. In that he relates that every individual has their own perceptions of how they feel and recripocate love. These are also related with the five senses - Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, and Physical Touch (not just sex..but also touching.) If you aren't speaking and showing love to your mate in ways that they relate you are not filling their love tank. So to say actions speak louder than words is just not so..........they are equally needed to show love and also equal in destroying love. It's all in the perception of how people feel and respond to that love or interactions.

YIKES.......sorry I rambled. I just wanted to impress upon others how every person is an individual and that statement doesn't reflect our individuality or feelings.

Much of what you express is very true and often forgotten. Any action can be hurtful to a marriage, not just cheating.

 

[8ball]

Always allowed, and even better when shared with a stranger that becomes a new friend I don't know that our discussion has changed my mind but at least I am hearing another view point on it, that's why I like lit so much. There are always other opinions out there and I would love to hear anyone else's on this.

I'm not completely blameless in our marital trouble. At heart he is a good man, but he has an anger problem that has only intensified with some failures with school and work that he has experienced in the last few years. But yes, at this point he is verbally abusive and we've yet to find a solution to make things better. I'm always open to any and all suggestions...........

That was a terribly sweet thing to say. Thank you.

I wasn't trying to change your mind, actually, you helped me remember that it can be a broad generalization.

Both sides, usually, have contributed to the troubles. I know in my marriage, when we first split, I was filled with blinding anger. Later, I realized things that I had done, or said, that may have been hurtful or contributed to our split up. So, it's an important admission, on your part, that you have recognized this. Big step!
It can provide you with a perspective that may have eluded you before. That step has helped me heal immensely. That and time.

Just be as supportive as you can, in regards to his recent failures, as, I am sure, you have been. As long as he is willing to keep communications open, then talk. Since he is being verbally abusive, I think you should get him to go to a counselor with you immediately. That way, there will be a qualified, neutral third party there to help mediate your talks. Otherwise, it can end up being a nasty name calling session where the goal is to see who can hurt the other the most. If he is unwilling to go, or does not want to make the commitment necessary to make it work, then, I don't see that there is much else for you to do, but leave.

Verbal abuse combined with uncontrolled anger can be a dangerous combination. (does that win the obvious statement of the year award?)

Ok, hugs, again, and maybe later I will cop a feel. (this being a porn board and all and I am really randy lately)

 

[april-wine]

Open communtication....What's good for your partner is good for you....That's it....Personally I don't wanna share, neither does she....But that could change maybe, ummmm eventually, errrr I don't think so....lol