ARCHIVAL DISCUSSION to 11-14-08

[Penelope Street]

Penelope's Halloween contest story exceeds the definition of "scary." Check it out.

Thank you.

 

[Alex756]

I didn't "have a problem". I wasn't aware of what was considered old. I was thinking that anything without posts and active discussion for over 30 days was "old". Comments after that would seem, to me, less effective then fresh ones. I would think that the author was well out of the re-write stage by now.
QUOTE]

For the record I was mentally thinking along these same lines. I know I don't stay in the re-write stage normally for that long, and getting comments after that is like, hmmm I can keep that in mind, but... If I saw an author bump a thread like, hey I just re-wrote this and wonder what you all think of the re-write, I'd go through it again.

Pretty much all the read things points I had expired having been gone from here for a while.

As for scary things what did the halloween contest have 167 entries?

~Alex

 

[Pure]

I believe the order, according to volunteering is

Charley, today, 10-30
Scarlet next Sun,
then Wishful.

I hope this suits people. Let me know.

PS to Alex:

I cannot understand this sentence of yours:

//Pretty much all the read things points I had expired having been gone from here for a while.//

 

[Alex756]

PS to Alex:

I cannot understand this sentence of yours:

//Pretty much all the read things points I had expired having been gone from here for a while.//

Wow.. that was an impressive piece of total lack of communication on my part. What I was -trying- and obviously failing to say, is -- although I had participated in many threads in the past, they are almost all much older than a year. This is due to the fact I was gone from lit for a year and a half.

Wow, can you believe 99% of the time I am actually coherant? Or at least I hope I am, maybe "Nyquil is my co-pilot" is NOT a good motto

~Alex

 

[Pure]

Hi Alex,

As the nyquil wears off, there are moments of lucidity--including in writing! I am partial to Dalmane, myself.

Though I did understand the gist of the complaint by scarlet, I don't think the solution is to allow 'banking' of critiques--e.g. do two, then disappear for two years, and then re-appear and claim an entitlement. The point of the 'past year' clause is obviously to try to have a reasonably well knit group who slightly know each other's work and critiques, and are at least minimally interacting.

I might also mention, on the issue of 'old' stories: not all are undergoing serious redrafting, e.g., some of Rumple's; they are highly polished, and being fine-tuned. The critique is then 'feedback' for the author, for him or her to consider, even absent an intention to re write.
But, even were an author to ignore a critique, there is some benefit to the critiquer in going through an analysis and 'writing exercise' on a story that's reasonably well crafted.

It's also relevant that some authors have posted updated versions of story drafts, in that case, a critique can address the newer draft. Inquiries as to newer drafts may be appropriate.

In any case, it's great when 'old' contributers turn up again!

J.

 

[Black Tulip]

I'm still working on the rewrite of my "Dear Hunting".
Sooo ... if anybody needs a piece to critique ...

 

[Pure]

Thanks, Black T,

It's good if potential critics know which pieces are in on going states of revision. The date of a piece--it's 'oldness'--is not a very reliable guide to the author's plans, if there are any.

I would encourage all authors posted in the last year--let's say-- to let readers know--in the original thread--what the state of the story is. Further they are welcome to post the revised story in that thread, but they should NOT to replace/eliminate the version that underwent the critques.

Here is a suggestion as to how to do it, so that the revised story is not in mid thread. "Edit" the original posting, and insert a line saying "The original story, as critiqued, follows immediately. A revised version of the story, as of {date}, is posted just after that." Then post the revised story after the story (as an addition to the original posting). This should work except for the really gigantic stories, because of the large capacity of a single posting (I cannot give a number, but I think it's a least 30 pp (=30 x300 words).

 

[wishfulthinking]

Hi Pure,

sorry to be a pain, but can I vacate my date this sunday? I'm still working on the piece!

Cheers,

 

[SamanthaSmith]

Do not delay too long wishfulthinking...love your work!

Sammie

 

[Pure]

OK, wishful,

how about next Sun Nov 20?

Black Tulip did you want a date to post? What about Nov 27?

 

[wishfulthinking]

how about next Sun Nov 20?

I feel as though it will never be finished! I'll post a crappy incest story I'm interested in getting opinions on that may help it reach its audience instead.



Thanks Samantha

 

[Black Tulip]

how about next Sun Nov 20?

Black Tulip did you want a date to post? What about Nov 27?

I don't have enough time to participate properly at the moment.
I'm supposed to write my final paper. LOL

I'll be back after I finish my study. Just hanging around right now.

 

[Pure]

Poll:

I hope authors will leave stories posted in the thread (the one set up to receive critiques of the story) for some substantial period after there are critiques posted.

Do people agree this should be the normal procedure? If it's not followed, a whole thread becomes incomprehensible.

That said, here are two ways to make things better for the author who's uncomfortable with a version: As I stated in an early posting, he or she should feel free to post a revised version, preferably at the head of the thread. Possibly with a note at the end of the thread, bringing readers' attention to the new version.

Second, in practice, threads do 'die' and further reading of them is very rare. So, subject to input and discussion here, I'd propose this for authors uncomfortable with having a draft floating in cyberspace for ages. Let deletion of the main story be unobjectionable after one year.

I would like to hear some comments on this, since I'm just moderating, not ruling this thread. I remain a humble (?!) servant of the people.

 

[Black Tulip]

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Pure]

A question and a thought

This is written seeking your thoughts. These are my own, largely personal views since these are issues that cannot be 'enforced' by any moderator.

ADDED NOTE: [11-21 4:24 pm EST] It (almost) goes without saying that I am extremely pleased with the overall quality of critiques and the participation of the SDC generally. Below is offered by way of minor adjustments to a process I feel is going well. Indeed, since the critiques are often by writers of publishable and published material, they have exceptional qualities.



Q: Are our critiques too negative?
(relative to what, one might ask. well, relative to people hanging around the SDC, instead of disappearing)
--------

Second Item

Thought: A few months back, this came up, but what about people's negative remarks in PM and email? I mean a note to someone you don't know, and whose story is posted. Like: "The plot of your story is crappy."

So, besides negative, brief and blunt. Unsolicited (in PM or email). *Unelaborated.*

I'd prefer that any negative evaluations be posted, though I realize it's a double edged sword because of the embarrassment issue. First of all, plain insults will be deleted by me. But more importantly, the brief, blunt thing would probably not be posted without elaboration. I'm not sure I would moderate it (delete) but I would ask for elaboration if it were not there.

This gives the person a chance to see what the problem might be.

But the main advantage of a public process is that there is almost always disagreement, so the person is likely to hear other viewpoints.

Perhaps someone else will say, "Like X, I agree the plot is thin, but the sex scenes are over the top." and overall that someone has a positive view of the piece. This is not purely theoretical; think of the publishers/editors response to a number of fine (it's now admitted) short stories and novels. Boring, a waste of time. Blasphemous, crude, unredeemable.

So while anyone can PM or email anything to anyone that's in accord with Lit rules and criminal law (i..e, avoids death threats, etc.) and while I can do nothing about them, my thought is that the sender weigh the welfare of the SDC into equation. The likelihood of simple disappearance.

In that respect it would be disireable, IMO, NOT to send brief, blunt, negative, unelaborated PMs and emails, though this is recommended as a custom, not a rule, as etiquette here at SDC, not as ethics. What do others think of this proposed, admittedly unenforceable, guideline?

The response to the above might be, "What's the problem if someone disappears? Perhaps that person can't write and will never learn."

My reply to such a response would be to let the *process* (of a number of readers and critics) make that point to the person. Especially here at Lit., where readers have so many kinks and differing purposes. So something, unappreciated by you, might be appreciated by another.

Ask yourself, Why does Lit post virtually every story that's readable and has basic mechancics in good order? (And not in possible violation of the law, as to subject matter, etc.) I believe the answer is that someone somewhere is going to read it and like it and/or get off on it.

EVEN IF that's not the case, at Literotica generally, trash that's unappreciated by virtually everyone just sinks to the bottom, hardly ever read, merely occupying a fractiion of a megabyte in the Lit servers. So screening such an item, e.g. by Laurel, is not worth the effort and there is positive value, generally, in free speech, despite the trash factor.

 

[Boxlicker101]

If you are asking for our opinions, I believe a comment such as "Your plot is crappy" is pointless and insulting and probably should be deleted. On the other hand, a comment such as "Your plot seemed very unrealistic. Why would Susan leave her husband and children for a relative stranger in the way you describe. Nothing you said about him or about her feelings for him or her husband would have made such an action likely." In other words, suggestions or constructive criticism should always be welcome.

Some of the things described in stories actually are illegal, such as incest or N/C or BDSM with an unwilling participant.

 

[Varian P]

Q: Are our critiques too negative?
(relative to what, one might ask. well, relative to people hanging around the SDC, instead of disappearing)

Although I recall having felt a few critiques (of other authors) I've seen in the year or so I've been participating seemed unduly harsh, and some conversations (well, at least one I remember) in the SDC have degenerated into ad-hominem attacks rather than literary critiques, my impression is that such occurrences are the exception, and that for the most part, the SDC regulars provide thoughtful critiques that are constructive, even when the overall feedback is negative.

Personally, I feel the critiques I've received here at the SDC have been fair and informative—including when they've come from people who don't care for the kind of stories I write, and when the critic just hasn't liked the execution of the story.

Second Item

Thought: A few months back, this came up, but what about people's negative remarks in PM and email? I mean a note to someone you don't know, and whose story is posted. Like: "The plot of your story is crappy."

So, besides negative, brief and blunt. Unsolicited (in PM or email). *Unelaborated.*

I'd prefer that any negative evaluations be posted, though I realize it's a double edged sword because of the embarrassment issue. First of all, plain insults will be deleted by me. But more importantly, the brief, blunt thing would probably not be posted without elaboration. I'm not sure I would moderate it (delete) but I would ask for elaboration if it were not there.

This gives the person a chance to see what the problem might be.

But the main advantage of a public process is that there is almost always disagreement, so the person is likely to hear other viewpoints.

To the point about critiquing via PM versus in the public SDC forum, it seems to me that the point of the SDC is to have a public discussion about the work on offer for critique. I would prefer critiques directed at my own work be posted in the forum (though this doesn't mean I don't enjoy taking tangential conversations to PM), and I prefer the critiques of other's stories be posted in the forum as well. Seeing and responding to others' critiques is, in my opinion, one of the fundamental benefits of the SDC, both as an author and as a critic.

To the point about "unelaborated" criticisms, such as "your plot is crappy"—well, something that unelaborated is essentially useless, whether posted in the SDC or via PM.

So while anyone can PM or email anything to anyone that's in accord with Lit rules and criminal law (i..e, avoids death threats, etc.) and while I can do nothing about them, my thought is that the sender weigh the welfare of the SDC into equation. The likelihood of simple disappearance.

In that respect it would be disireable, IMO, NOT to send brief, blunt, negative, unelaborated PMs and emails, though this is recommended as a custom, not a rule, as etiquette here at SDC, not as ethics. What do others think of this proposed, admittedly unenforceable, guideline?

I get the feeling this dialogue has been prompted by some concrete event to which I'm not privy, and no doubt lots of behavior goes on in the SDC and in the forums generally that I'm not aware of, so forgive me as I go ahead and speak of something with which I have only a little experience.

Whenever we interact with other people, we open ourselves up to the good, the bad and the ugly. Some people have nothing better to do with their time and energy than to fuck with other people, by attacking their ideas, their morals, etc. I suspect that the people who send hollow nastygrams under the pretense of offering a story critique may not have a useful contribution to make, and aren't likely to give a crap about the welfare of the SDC.

My hope would be that those of us who appreciate the benefits of participation in the SDC would continue to offer substantive critiques, with both praise and criticism supported by concrete examples, and that we'd not let a few spoilers drive us from our little community.

-Varian

 

[drlust]

Thin Skins/Thick Skins

Hi Pure:

Thanks for raising this. Given the give and take lately around several stories, I think this is something well worth discussing. In response to your questions:

Q: Are our critiques too negative?

In a word, no.

If people offering their writing here think the critiques they've received are too negative, they ought to try submitting their work to a university press some time. The reviews that come back of scholarly writing sometimes border on the vitriolic (usually when one is taking on a long-standing interpretation and its defenders rise to slay the interloper). Commerical presses can be just as bad. A colleague of mine in the English department, who has published five novels, once shared some of her rejection letters with me, one of which suggested that she needed to see a psychiatrist.

I've been participating in the SDC for something like two years no (with a hiatus in there somewhere) and in all that time I've read many reviews that are sharp. But those same reviews always try to find something positive to say. I think the people who contribute here over the long term do so because they genuinely want to help each other grow as writers.

Second Item

Thought: A few months back, this came up, but what about people's negative remarks in PM and email? I mean a note to someone you don't know, and whose story is posted. Like: "The plot of your story is crappy."

People are going to say what they want to say in PM no matter what policies or procedures we might establish, so it's pointless to try to legislate that behavior. If you don't want to receive negative PM then turn your mailbox off. That's the only solution. Also, I once received a particularly negative response from someone to one of my stories, but he/she wrote to me in PM because he/she thought it would be less embarassing for me. In other words, my critic was trying to be nice even as he/she was being harsh. And, I found that I had to agree with the critic on several points--points that no one made in the public forum. The story was better as a result.

So, in the end, I think our system works well. We have a nice community of authors here and new ones join with some regularity. I appreciate all the feedback I've received here, both the positive and the negative and hope it will continue. I know my writing has improved substantially since I began lurking in the SDC...

 

[Pure]

Hey Youse Guys! ---New Thread

I've set up a new thread on 'Introducing Main Characters' since it's an obvious 'writerly' topic of relevance to 'our kind' of writing.

Trapped? Bored with all that snow? SAD? Cut your teeth or use your mind on this!!

It is meant to deal with the earliest phase of introduction. Surely all of us form opinions of the author and story after a very few paras, and these often introduce characters, with some intermix of action ("show"). Hence the thread will I hope complement wishful's on 'character development.'

Please feel free to contribute; no one in the SDC is going to have his or her feelings hurt, so you can be direct. But be polite and charitable. These are tremendously popular stories chosen among the top 20, for 'reads', ie. over 750,000, something few of us have even approached.

I picture, after these excerpts, soliciting 'volunteers' from amongst us, if there are some, to continue the thread by posting their excerpts (check with me first please.) I haven't selected among SDC stories so as not to seem to have 'favorites.'

====
Note to my colleagues: The authors selected are not my relatives. As long as you are detailed, give reasons, stay impersonal and polite, post whatever thoughts or opinions you like. Perhaps I will attempt to find some cases I really know and admire, but then I suppose that creates problems of a different sort.

Mab, maybe after a few more days (about 11-30), you might post here a longer 'character introduction' of your own, of which you're proud. By the way, I mean by 'character,' simply a person (or persons) (or the main person) who is a principal figure in a story, who undertakes the main actions of the story, or undergoes them. I want to leave open the question of what facets of the person, be it looks, personality (or character, in another sense--stable traits and virtues), 'mental states,' dreams, or verbalizings are introduced first to give the reader a sense of that person.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I've got the start of a story I'd like to run through the mill. I've got some qustions about my character's motivation and whether it's believable.

--Zoot

 

[Pure]

OK, zoot, when would you be ready to post. I aim for sundays, but if you're ready today, Mon, go ahead and set up the thread.

 

[Pure]

Happy Holidays to All!

Let's get some threads and stories for critique going early in the New Year!

 

[Pure]

Happy Holidays to All

Happy Holidays!


Have a great time over the holidiays, and get some reading and writing in there too.

This is just to thank all who've contributed, esp. with their stories over the past year--to mention just a few, dr mabeuse, Varian, Black Tulip, Black Shanglan, drlust, the Box, Wishful, Neon, CharleyH, Colleen, Stella, Singularity, Ms. ScarletWings, Rumple, Penelope and Alex. To any who've not been seen lately, do drop by!

 

[Varian P]

Happy Holidays!


Have a great time over the holidiays, and get some reading and writing in there too.

This is just to thank all who've contributed, esp. with their stories over the past year--to mention just a few, dr mabeuse, Varian, Black Tulip, Black Shanglan, drlust, the Box, Wishful, Neon, CharleyH, Colleen, Stella, Singularity, Ms. ScarletWings, Rumple, Penelope and Alex. To any who've not been seen lately, do drop by!

Yes, cheers Pure and everyone--I've benefitted from your advice and enjoyed the discussions. I look forward to more this coming year.

-Varian

 

[Varian P]

Let's get some threads and stories for critique going early in the New Year!

I'd love to get feedback on the opening to a new novel; though I'd like general input, it could also serve as a discussion point re: introducing main characters.

-V