ARCHIVAL DISCUSSION to 11-14-08

[Pure]

Neonlyte is up.

Neolyte, aka Wills is up for this week. There is a first chapter of a novel he's working on.

Ob Seen

Up to his usual high standard.

It is pure dialogue. Since it's 9900 words, I've inserted a stopping point, for the busy.

 

[CharleyH]

Hey Charley,

I didn't write the first posting of the sticky. (I've asked for a revision.)

I'll trust you. ... But would you mind stepping over to the retinal scanner?

Thank god it's not a rectal scanner! That's the first thing I read, and you had me terrified - lol - Yes, I have something for this Sunday. Let me know how you want it.

Yes, a clear revision of the first post, no offence to anyone, (large print and pictures preferred) is a grand idea.

 

[Pure]

Hi Charley and others,

In KM's 'i'm back' thread, I posted a revision of the first posting in the sticky, describing how we operate.

I've asked KM to update.

If you have comments about what's already there (first posting, by KM), or what I've suggested, post in that "I'm back" thread. Give your own suggestions, opinions, as to the need, if any, for changes.

 

[Pure]

Checking re-formating
[deleted]

NOTE: The first part of neonlyte's story has been reformated by me.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

This is an official, "Opps, wrong thred" post.

Sorry.

Rumple "blushing" Foreskin

 

[Pure]

Black Shanglan

For those wanting 'follow up'. Black S has posted a revised version of the story we all critiqued earlier, and no doubt it's even better. Black is not 'on' this week, but all threads remain open for the interested, and the authors.

 

[Pure]

Note to Neon and all,

The text of _Ob Seen_ has been reformatted, all italics removed; all clues in Synopsis removed.

There is a small note as to gender at the very end.

I hope this is satisfactory to the author. Persons may wish to comment on the issue of how, if at all, the voices should be distiguished on the page, and whether this present way works better. I hope so.

 

[Wholemanz]

Re: Discussion: Feedback and review of stories that you have posted at Literotica!

Hi, I'm Muffin, moderator of the SDC! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me by pressing the (PM) button below this or any other post I make!

Getting Your Story Into a Discussion

1) In this thread, post the title and a link to a single story (not your memberpage) that you want reviewed and any concerns you want to see addressed by reviewers.
2) Review at least two other discussions. Please give the quality feedback that you would like to recieve.
3) PM the moderator, me, with the names of the authors you have reviewed and the title of the story you volunteered. This way you will have your work reviewed in a timely fashion and I won't make a mistake.

The Rules

We're very strict about which stories can be discussed here. There are a few rules, but they're not difficult to follow. For our purposes, a story will be defined as a work in any of the non-poem categories (except extreme) in a single link. If your story has more than one link--that is chapterized--only one story link will be provided in the discussion.

1) The story must be posted at Literotica.
2) You must be the author.
3) You may volunteer your story for discussion at any time, first come first serve. Please do so in this thread.
4) This is important. In order for your story to make it into discussion you must make an effort to participate in no less than two other discussions.
5) There is no limit to the stories that you may volunteer for discussion, however before you can volunteer another story your previous story must be discussed first.
6) You will have no control over the feedback that you receive.
7) If you want feedback on an unpublished draft of your story, please see the Workshop thread in the forum.
8) You may not post your own Discussion threads. These threads will be moved to the Story Feedback Forum.

Participating in a Discussion

An effort to participate is defined as thoughtful feedback that can provide some insight into the craft of writing or into the story being discussed. This is not as difficult as it sounds, it merely requires that you answer two questions: 1) What did I like about this story? and 2) What did I not like about this story? Additionally, guided discussion questions will be provided with each new discussion.

What is not allowed

The Literotica Bulletin Board is a very large place. Please direct general questions, general comments, personal ads, poetry, etc. to the appropriate forum. Any thread that does not belong here will be moved to the appropriate forum for you. This forum is reserved for guided story discussion.

Additionally, we follow the Literotica Discussion Forum Rules found in the Forum Guidlines at the bottom of every forum page.

Thank you for your cooperation.

How to Give a Critique You Can Feel Good About

From Mickie

This is one of the best explanations I found on how to review someone else's work. I found it at the Del Rey workshop, and this is the pertinent information...

How do I write a basic review?

If you are at a loss, we suggest the following model for critiques, based on a technique used by Maureen McHugh when she teaches at places like Clarion. Reviewers should write at least four sentences, one on each of the following areas:

A one-sentence summary of the submission. This lets the writer know whether or not the reviewer got the main point of the story or chapter.
Point out one good thing about the submission. Be specific. Refer to the writing, setting, dialogue, characters, or plot.
Mention one thing in the submission that you didn't like. Again, be specific.
Ask one question or make one suggestion for improvement.
This method helps guarantee balanced reviews and reminds reviewers to include something positive and something helpful.
This is not the only method or model. Different reviewers have different critiquing strengths.

Any review that provides specific, helpful feedback to the writer is a good start.

What if I can't find anything wrong with a submission?

Uh...try harder.

Even the most successful professional writers send their stories out for critique to improve their writing. If you can't find anything in a submission to improve it, then go steal a Hugo award and start engraving the submission's title on it at once.

How do I critique a writer who's better than I am?

Develop your ability to look at a submission as a reader, not a writer. Don't compare your skills to those of the author, but ask yourself, if you read this in a magazine, what would your reaction be? Which places slow you down? Which parts interested you the most? Learn to read critically.

What if I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by saying something negative?

Your compassion commends you. However...

If you don't tell writers where they can improve, they'll never get any better. By following the model we suggested above, you will always give a balanced review, with positives as well as negatives.

Several workshop members also suggest a light touch. Brie writes: "HUMOR. It's a way to get past defensiveness. Larry West, for example, may absolutely rip my stories apart at the seams, but i'm generally too busy giggling to get huffy."


What if the writing is so awful I can't find anything positive to say?

First, remember that we were all beginners once.

Second, don't try to correct everything. Pick out one specific area--grammar, dialogue, setting--and give the writer one piece of advice, one tool, that he or she can use immediately. The next time you see a submission by that writer, you'll be able to find one positive thing to say!


How can I get more reviews of my submission?

You mean aside from bribes?

The easiest method is to give more reviews. Pay attention to writers who do reviews, and then critique their work.


I really can't add anything to that, to tell the truth. However, if you can't do exactly what's in the model, then do the best you can. No one is grading here, so just tell us what you think!

- Mickie

From Judo

Positive Summary: You introduce a wonderful little model, properly credited, for reviewing almost anything, including reading someone else's writing.

Negative: Then, you follow up the little model with a page-and-a-half of FAQs' text indistinguishable from the model.

Humor: It's a lot to read for instructions (especially if you're the type who likes to throw them away). Perhaps a little color coding would help identify the sub-sections and not make the instructions seem so long.

- Judo

From Angeline

KM, hope you don't mind me barging into your thread, but as a former English teacher and an editor who, for years, has given author feedback pretty much daily, I wanted to make the following point.

There is a difference between subjective and objective feedback. The former is marginally interesting, but won't help the author write a better story and, at worst, is simply browbeating. Objective feedback, on the other hand, is specific, uses examples to clarify, and may even offer suggestions for improvement. This is what authors need.

Subjective Examples:

I didn't like this story.

The main character doesn't work.

This isn't a story.

Ok, reviewer. Great! That tells me um your opinion, but nothing about my story.


Objective Examples:

I didn't like this story because there are so many problems with grammar and punctuation, I was unable to enjoy. For example, in the following paragraph, I have noted problems with subject-verb agreement and comma usage. You can fix this by reading [add resource link here] or by having one of the onsite editors review your story.

Here is the rewritten paragraph with the errors corrected.

2. I don't think your main character works because her behavior is inconsistent. For example in paragraph 7 Mathilde describes herself as "shy," someone who "always stays in the background." Then, in paragraph 14, she no sooner arrives at Club Med than she runs in the bar and gives all the men lap dances.

Here are some suggestions to clarify her why she changed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

You get the idea. If you need to see an example of a good objective review, look an one done by JUDO. She's thorough, specific, and doesn't get personal about it.

If you include Grammar in 'Story Critique', you might want to change it to some other name. A story critique is not about whether you can spell. That is for English teachers and proofreaders. Many time authors misspell things on purpose. Many times authors format a specific way, not in the mainstream formatting, for their own reasons.

Story telling is about weaving a small universe around the reader, which holds their interest and presents them with some content either new, or interesting.

Things about the 'Story' are what should be critiqued. Also, whether you care for the genre the writer has written is has no bearing.

Story Critique is about story telling. Can an author weave the spell to make it a viable story? Content, logic, flow, etc. are about story critique.

Sorry but I am a bit opinionated about this subject.

I have had story feedback from many English teachers who are good proof readers and poor story tellers.

Put Shakespeare in your spell checker and grammer checker sometime and see what happens?

Sorry if this is not your view, but I felt it should be mentioned.

Wholeman

 

[Pure]

Hi Whole,

Thanks for your comments. Killer M may, of course, respond for herself. She was 'on sabbatical' for several months after writing that, and it was in the nature of a *plan*, surely to be adjusted.

You are quoting various contributors ideas of a critique, such as Angeline, Judo, etc. Some are not currently participating. Their ideas/suggestions were not 'rules', in any case.

I've been doing some 'directing' of traffic, and here I will simply try to describe what's going on here; it's unclear if you've visited any of the threads which are labeled 'grassroots discussion' and devoted to a specific piece of work by an author.
Check, "Black Shanglan"'s story, for instance.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273791

In a nutshell, the *practice* of offering comments and 'critique' shows a lot of variety, and *does* often focus on narrative issues, and rarely on grammar.

If you would browse around, you'd get a sense of whether the practice is something that might be of use to you. Why don't you offer some comment on any of the current stories. One goes up each week, in general.

Best,
J.
"pure"

 

[Wholemanz]

Hi Whole,

Thanks for your comments. Killer M may, of course, respond for herself. She was 'on sabbatical' for several months after writing that, and it was in the nature of a *plan*, surely to be adjusted.

You are quoting various contributors ideas of a critique, such as Angeline, Judo, etc. Some are not currently participating. Their ideas/suggestions were not 'rules', in any case.

I've been doing some 'directing' of traffic, and here I will simply try to describe what's going on here; it's unclear if you've visited any of the threads which are labeled 'grassroots discussion' and devoted to a specific piece of work by an author.
Check, "Black Shanglan"'s story, for instance.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273791

In a nutshell, the *practice* of offering comments and 'critique' shows a lot of variety, and *does* often focus on narrative issues, and rarely on grammar.

If you would browse around, you'd get a sense of whether the practice is something that might be of use to you. Why don't you offer some comment on any of the current stories. One goes up each week, in general.

Best,
J.
"pure"

Glad to hear that is the practice. I admit that I have not perused everything.

On a quick scan I noticed 'reformatting' a couple times.

And very few other story comments.

Lots of stuff about wanting more critiques and how to draw more people into this thread.

BTW, I didn't refer to you as Pu, so please don't do it to me.

 

[Pure]

Hi W,

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. This thread is for news, and for coordinating a lineup or queue. Yes, I did reformat neon's story, but that's a minor issue.

Each story discusssed has its own thread, I referred you to one. To see comments/critiques, you must look over a few threads, beginning with the story initially posted or referenced there.

 

[Wholemanz]

Hi W,

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. This thread is for news, and for coordinating a lineup or queue. Yes, I did reformat neon's story, but that's a minor issue.

Each story discusssed has its own thread, I referred you to one. To see comments/critiques, you must look over a few threads, beginning with the story initially posted or referenced there.

Yes thanks,

I was only explaining why I misunderstood. I understand now.

W

 

[Pure]

Visitors and etiquette

NOTICE

I was asked whether anyone may 'drop in' and OFFER a critique.

Yes, that is done, no problem; in the last discussion thread were a couple persons who 'dropped in.'

A person may also hang around and join in critical discussions, and continue with critiques that are in the spirit of things. That is part of what makes a 'member' of the SDC.

The key rule just says "You can't just 'drop in' and receive a bunch of people's critiques, when they've had no prior contact with you. "

(Why should 5-10 strangers, some, writers themselves, each give a couple hours of time to someone who walks in and says, 'Here's my first story, please give feedback.') You can't receive when you've *given* nothing to anyone. IOW, this is a 'swap situation'--you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

"Story Feedback" is a forum where anyone may draw attention to their stories and request comment. They may get some brief positive feedback-- or negative. And that seems appropriate and just. Very few are going to respond to "How'd you like to spend 10 hours on my story; by the way, you don't know me." (That's why volunteer editors are scarce.)

 

[Pure]

CALL FOR SUBMISSION

We could use a piece for this Sun 10-24.

Lacking that we'll let Charley baste in her own juices another week.

 

[ShyAzn]

Can I submit my revision?

If there are no other submissions, could I offer up my revision? It's been rather heavily reworked, and I intend to delete the old version and submit this new one.

However, it IS a repost of a story already submitted. And...uh...I haven't had the opportunity to thoroughly critique any other stories, so I don't know if that would be violating the 'swapping' feature of this forum.

So, if not, no biggie.

 

[Pure]

Shy, I'll consider it if I hear no objections, here.

Note that another author posted a revised story in the original thread.

Are you talking about a new thread.?

In any case, let's see what people thing.

 

[Pure]

Hi Shy,
I"m not sure if you're talking about the revision already posted 10-22, or another. In the first case, are we just saying 'let's direct people to the revision"?

 

[ShyAzn]

Hi Pure!

Hi Pure,

Sorry for not being clearer. I am referring to the revision posted in the original thread.

No point in starting a new thread, so might as well point them to the original one.

Thanks!

 

[Pure]

Shy's work: Reprise (10-25-04)

Shy Azn reprise for 10-25

OK, I'm game. Shy has substantially revised the story, and so this week, let's all have a look at the results of the feedback and the author's reflection.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=278868&pagenumber=2


As well, any who've not grappled with neonlyte's fine not so little piece are encouraged to do so.

Added: Oops, forgot: I should also recommend reading Charley H's piece, and offering comments, if you haven't.

 

[Pure]

We are open for volunteers** for tomorrow, 10-31 and the following Sunday.

Anybody gotta story to tell? to sell?


*Who will furnish a story for critique and have done two critiques.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Pure,

Everyone must be wiped out from the Halloween contest. If no decent, respectable writer steps up (electronically speaking) I have two stories to volunteer. One is less that 1000 words. It has racial violence but no sex and has never been posted at Lit. The other is a 4200 word re-write of a current Lit story and does have sex, though of the Romance variety.

Please let me know if you think either of those might be worth the bandwidth to post 'em.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Pure]

I'm sure both of your opuscules are fine, as usual. After I have another look at both, I'll take a pick, if that's OK.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I'm sure both of your opuscules are fine, as usual. After I have another look at both, I'll take a pick, if that's OK.

I await you decision.

RF

 

[Pure]

Rumple's Up.

Rumple is 'up', with a great romance. Re worked a lot since last we had a look.

First posting in the thread is a rtf version. If there are problems, a bit later (next) in the same posting, is Rumple's 'official' txt version.

Thanks R, for contributing such high quality material!

 

[Pure]

.