Bite me

[Angeline]

Myth means shithead ironsuited.

Now Wtf, is this number guy on about now, and wtf does it have to do with poetry?

The Affect Heuristic

I'm tempted to just drop it and say Think, but what you are doing as a writer is manipulating words to create an effect. And what you are doing as a reader (or should be) is trying to figure out how you where fooled.

excerpt

Then how about this? Yamagishi (1997) showed that subjects judged a disease as more dangerous when it was described as killing 1,286 people out of every 10,000, versus a disease that was 24.14% likely to be fatal. Apparently the mental image of a thousand dead bodies is much more alarming, compared to a single person who's more likely to survive than not.


Now how many times have you been lectured about concrete images?

but it gets worse, by extrapolation, suppose you see two poems over in New Poems, one a sonnet, one not. The easy and quick course is judge the sonnet writer as a better poet than the non sonnet writer, not necessarily true. That requires some thinking, doesn't it?

Now suppose x,y,and z, say that A is a better poet than B and x,y,and z all are good poets, is A better? Quick think - yes.
But it is not necessarily true, my first question would be are x,y, and z similar to A and B is not and that is the basis for the judgement?
Not to mention x,y, and z may actually be A (or their girlfriend). This judgement may have a degree of validity only if x,y, and z are actually quite dissimilar people.

Now do you want to write or wallow in your ignorance? To write actually requires thinking. Hard thinking.

I am reminded of a statement "this is just beautiful writing" said by a person I once respected, my question would be why? when I see another example of "this is just beautiful writing" by another that affects me more.

Think
and Think for yourself, eh?

I wouldn't underestimate the number of people who want to wallow in their ignorance. All one has to do is consider the annual poetry awards here, and how "friends" (and their alts) rush like lemmings to vote for poem x. How many people over the years have we seen come here and ask for help and then get all pissy when they get a little truth? We are an island in a sea of secretions. Who expects to find people who are working (and I mean seriously working) at their writing on a porn forum?

Anyway I like your well-illustrated point about why showing is better than telling. And I've decided to out you as an optimist for believing in all this enough to keeping saying so in spite of towering mediocrity, disinterest and--sometimes--outright hostility.

 

[bogusagain]

Anyway I like your well-illustrated point about why showing is better than telling. And I've decided to out you as an optimist for believing in all this enough to keeping saying so in spite of towering mediocrity, disinterest and--sometimes--outright hostility.

I think 1201 is into self flagellation, which is why his talent is on a porn site.

 

[Angeline]

I think 1201 is into self flagellation, which is why his talent is on a porn site.

This, too.

Well he picked the right week then to express it, eh?

 

[bogusagain]

This, too.

Well he picked the right week then to express it, eh?

Yes, I never thought of that.

You don't think he might really be JC?

 

[Angeline]

Yes, I never thought of that.

You don't think he might really be JC?

I just thought of those people who self-flagellate and hang on crosses, walk on their knees over stone and glass to holy sites. But also, my Jewdar, which is usually pretty accurate, is not pinging for Twelvis, so that would argue against it. Course I've been wrong about that before (but not often).

I really have to go find that chocolate coconut cream egg now. I've been dreaming of it all day.

 

[twelveoone]

I just thought of those people who self-flagellate and hang on crosses, walk on their knees over stone and glass to holy sites. But also, my Jewdar, which is usually pretty accurate, is not pinging for Twelvis, so that would argue against it. Course I've been wrong about that before (but not often).

I really have to go find that chocolate coconut cream egg now. I've been dreaming of it all day.

I'm just Roman around, tryin to nail some sense into people.

 

[twelveoone]

I think 1201 is into self flagellation, which is why his talent is on a porn site.

A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. To become a master, a journeyman has to submit a master work piece to a guild for evaluation and be admitted to the guild as a master.
1.) where is the guild?
2.) what is a master?

in what direction is the whip flicked?

 

[twelveoone]

anyway, I'm done
Harry post your two poems here, two unrelated and the parchment thing, the parchment thing first, i'll try to get back and show you a few things that are happening, if you don't know already

Tess, I want your permission for Erogenous Triggers ( I may need to post the whole poem) for the level three thread

 

[HarryHill]

In the Spring

Hey, Bud-dy,
let's spend the morning together
while the parchment of the day
unfolds.
Hopefully,
there will be no wrinkles,
Coffee?

Look there,
where the vapors of the fog
fall apart, like rotten cloth,
far beyond mending.
Beautiful, eh?

See the moss valanced pond
spill from the tattered mist
emerging from cover
to reveal the kiss of fish
and nymph
What? Go fishing?
Sure.
...................................Why, sometimes is the answer to a question.
...................................So in this case I'll just say, why ask why?

Two Unrelated:
...
Kitchen Detente

Shifting alliances/appliances
Bitter enemies
Kettle and toaster
Blink
in the light of a new day
then sit down
to a jolly cup of tea
and scones

The Question

Sarah, sit here; say you love me
I'm empty and oh so blue
There's not a rhyme or phrase
left to save me but you
...

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Tess, I want your permission for Erogenous Triggers ( I may need to post the whole poem) for the level three thread

Go for it, permission is yours. Not proud of that poem anyway.

 

[twelveoone]

Go for it, permission is yours. Not proud of that poem anyway.

sometimes you can judge a poet by what they can get away with in the level three thread Demure uses a "bad line"; the "bad line" makes the poem
i.e. real speak to new speak, all the while bemoaning the loss of something real; smacked me like a hammer

Your poems show a certain consistency of "Offness" and they most often are in the right place. One thing in yours is the word "slowly"( a personal quirk) when I see that word in an erotic poem, I usually go-ly rather quickly. Didn't do it, did I?
I do think you may have missed a window here, I'll elaborate later.
But, thanks.

 

[twelveoone]

Harry. I changed my mind about the order of approach, I removed the titles for the sake of a small illustration, I did not see them as unrelated. They are in context together. Now they are S1 and S2


Shifting alliances/appliances
Bitter enemies
Kettle and toaster
Blink
in the light of a new day
then sit down
to a jolly cup of tea
and scones



Sarah, sit here; say you love me
I'm empty and oh so blue
There's not a rhyme or phrase
left to save me but you

What do you see? A guy in a hostile kitchen sitting down to a jolly? cup of tea and scones-word associate scones brrrr
Between S1 and S2 lies an untold story, you leave quite enough to fill in the blanks, now S2 looks like an emotional outburst or a plaintive cry, not quite the doggerel you think, you did the same in three unrelated, I think this one is better



here are the titles, you can have them back now
Two Unrelated:
...
Kitchen Detente

The Question

the following are judgement calls on my part:

alliances/appliances

this is non-standard (in a poem)it will either be perceived as wrong, or worse because it is standard nomenclature to designate end rhyme, cute.

do it again

Shifting alliances/appliances
Bitter enemies
Kettle and toaster
Blink/in the light
of a new day
sit down
to a jolly cup of tea
and scones

I took out the word "then"
Seriously, one of the better poems, it is nonlinear, it has the leap or gap that senna jawa (or Haiku) relies on, but it has pointers to control it.

Now what do you think?

 

[twelveoone]

In the Spring

Hey, Bud-dy,
let's spend the morning together
while the parchment of the day
unfolds.
Hopefully,
there will be no wrinkles,
Coffee?

Look there,
where the vapors of the fog
fall apart, like rotten cloth,
far beyond mending.
Beautiful, eh?

See the moss valanced pond
spill from the tattered mist
emerging from cover
to reveal the kiss of fish
and nymph
What? Go fishing?
Sure.
...................................Why, sometimes is the answer to a question.
...................................So in this case I'll just say, why ask why?

because it is interesting, this has to be the strangest fishing poem, I've ever seen. It also is one of the stranger poems. Problem is the more I look at it, the more it makes sense. But it does have problems, who is your audience?

 

[HarryHill]

Wandering

Good morning, I had to let my Dragon out of its cage to reply to your questions. Firstly, as to the question of audience, I would say that those that write do so mostly for themselves, and I am no different.
You are correct about the / mark. One of your first lessons was, “if you do something unexpected or nonconventional, do it again to reinforce so as not to be seen as a mistake.”

Scones – Scorn? Is that what you’re saying?

S2 = written very quickly. I added ‘oh’ later because it seemed to fit the cadence better. As I look back on it now, I see those pesky iambs lining up again. Go figure. It makes me sad every time I read it.

What the hell is a pointer? Are you talking about the connotation between words?

“In the Spring” started as something very different. It was never meant to be a fishing poem, but, change a word here, change a word there, and the mood changes dramatically. My fault, I was rushing to post one poem a day, so by the end of the week when I posted “crapping poetry” it ended up in the toilet where it belongs.

So if I had to rewrite it would probably go like this.

let's spend the morning together
while the parchment of the day
unfolds. Hopefully,
there will be no wrinkles,

Look there,
where the vapors of the fog
fall apart, like rotten cloth,
far beyond mending.

See the moss valanced pond
spill from the tattered mist
emerging from cover
revealing the kiss of nymph
and fish then watch

Furry white dog four feet in air
Waving to sky in opposing pairs

--then a denoument touching the first line

This was obviously posted too quickly there is so much more that can be done and only the random gods of chance can tell how it will end.

 

[twelveoone]

Good morning, I had to let my Dragon out of its cage to reply to your questions. Firstly, as to the question of audience, I would say that those that write do so mostly for themselves, and I am no different.
You are correct about the / mark. One of your first lessons was, “if you do something unexpected or nonconventional, do it again to reinforce so as not to be seen as a mistake.”

Scones – Scorn? Is that what you’re saying?

S2 = written very quickly. I added ‘oh’ later because it seemed to fit the cadence better. As I look back on it now, I see those pesky iambs lining up again. Go figure. It makes me sad every time I read it.

What the hell is a pointer? Are you talking about the connotation between words?

scones/bones scorn, etc., etc.

more like a connection between words
Shifting alliances
Bitter enemies

light of a new day
jolly? -really can go either way, there is a bit of ambiguity with this and the scones

Sarah, sit here; say you love me
I'm empty and oh so blue
There's not a rhyme or phrase
left to save me but you

now the titles say it all
Kitchen Detente

The Question

I guess a "pointer" is to something I want you to see, either directly, lead-in, foreshadowing, or referring back to. Something to keep the audience going in the direction I want, in comedy stuff that leads to the punchline.

as far as it making you sad, it made me sad. I FELT IT i.e. effective writing

“In the Spring” started as something very different. It was never meant to be a fishing poem, but, change a word here, change a word there, and the mood changes dramatically. My fault, I was rushing to post one poem a day, so by the end of the week when I posted “crapping poetry” it ended up in the toilet where it belongs.

Don't force, write to post, or do too much self deprecation.
Yeh, change one word, changes everything. One letter - fuckin fucking

My three liners take 6 weeks, even if it springs into my mind, change this, change that, wind up with pretty close to what I thought of and then after you post you think of something else.

Anyway "in the Spring" ....be back....

 

[HarryHill]

Your description of pointers was carved in marble. You need to save that somewhere in your 'Poetry for Idiots' book or has that already been done? If not I want an acknowledgement and a forward.

A new one awaits in the subbie slot, written in 2 hours; inspired here.
old theme now that I look at it.

Jolly cuppa tea?
That's what the Avatars say in Civ IV just before they release the horde.

 

[twelveoone]

Your description of pointers was carved in marble. You need to save that somewhere in your 'Poetry for Idiots' book or has that already been done? If not I want an acknowledgement and a forward.

A new one awaits in the subbie slot, written in 2 hours; inspired here.
old theme now that I look at it.

Jolly cuppa tea?
That's what the Avatars say in Civ IV just before they release the horde.

since you brought it up, it sometimes helps to think of your poem as the AI in a video game, it is going up against a select audience. Enjoyable, somewhat solvable (in time), and with different levels.

I think you already do.
OK on the rewrite
I see you removed Hey Bud-dy and coffee, with the introduction of the dog, coffee had to go, Buddy could have stayed. Now "nymph" I feel will confuse people. What do you think?

And Seriously, hone,hone,hone don't write,write,write
especially if you don't have a template and/or you are doing non linear poetry
this was written as I posted, it has an ingrained (in me) template

a poet walks into a bar, goes to a whorehouse, writes about it, gets that part chopped out by E. Pound
becomes
king of the hill
for 40 years
another poet walks into a bar, doesn't live
another poet walks into a bar, never leaves, sells 17 books
some where there is a morale or a joke in this

God walks into a bar
do you serve poets here?
yes
what are you fucking nuts?
the bar burns down that night


actually it was arson by the bar owner, god was just the cover story for insurance purposes

this also has an embedded template, but it took two days, and at least 2/3 of it never saw the light of day
http://www.literotica.com/p/a-walk-on-the-path
Here is the real scary part
from butter's comment
the 'decrepit albino flesh' seems to speak of substance abuse, but also makes me think of death.

'decrepit albino flesh' is the colour of "fucking pink" , (a pointer) faded and dirty, but was also a pointer to the part that was thrown out, which did deal with substance abuse. Somewhere in the past, a woman attacked this poem in a thread, whereas if she had bothered to read the comments, she would have seen most of the poem picked over and explained away by people suffering from a little more perception

Ignorance is Bliss
Oh the poor unhappy lot of those that perceive

 

[twelveoone]

Hey, Bud-dy,
let's spend the morning together
....
Furry white dog four feet in air
Waving to sky in opposing pairs

Harry suppose you do this, this is what is call encasement, I think it also know as framing. Bronzeage does it here http://www.literotica.com/p/blackberry-sunday

first lines and last lines blackberries, and the rest of the poem he ain't talkin about blackberries.

Desijo does it in Coming to America inhttp://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=825346

jd4george had a great example, but I forget the title.
Now both Bronze, and Des, have some degree of bleed though, the blocks are not discrete, yours will be, but the introduction of Bud-dy, will not be solved until the end.
i.e. always get there before the reader does.

So, HH?, still interested? Trust me, I a few other things happening here, before you amended it, but I'm telling you, you do have to plan it out.

 

[HarryHill]

Encasement? Something surrounding something.. in construction a foundation or shell or window frame I believe without looking... Seriously Fuck Daddy, vocabulary and terms ...how do I say this? All the links you provide (especially in Scantion) are filled with words that I have to search and indeed are windows into both writing and poetry. Am I still interested? I'm lame but game; lead on.

But first... tell me what you know about writing vertically.

 

[twelveoone]

Encasement? Something surrounding something.. in construction a foundation or shell or window frame I believe without looking... Seriously Fuck Daddy, vocabulary and terms ...how do I say this? All the links you provide (especially in Scantion) are filled with words that I have to search and indeed are windows into both writing and poetry. Am I still interested? I'm lame but game; lead on.

But first... tell me what you know about writing vertically.

you need a propeller
Blackberry summer, blackberry Sunday,
Blackberry nipples show through your shirt.
...story...
blackberry pie and blackberry jam
and sweet blackberry love.

Hey, Bud-dy,
let's spend the morning together
....other parts...
Furry white dog four feet in air
Waving to sky in opposing pairs

I assume Buddy is dog's name
yours is a discrete encasement, as the dog does not appear elsewhere
Bronze's acts more like a refrain in a song, except it surrounds the story

encasing the rest of the poem, I believe it is also known as framing(which can cause confusion) in most cases it is easy to tell a poem from a sausage

 

[butters]

this also has an embedded template, but it took two days, and at least 2/3 of it never saw the light of day
http://www.literotica.com/p/a-walk-on-the-path
Here is the real scary part
from butter's comment
the 'decrepit albino flesh' seems to speak of substance abuse, but also makes me think of death.

'decrepit albino flesh' is the colour of "fucking pink" , (a pointer) faded and dirty, but was also a pointer to the part that was thrown out, which did deal with substance abuse.

and so you had built enough character into your characters for the colours and textures of 'decrepit albino flesh' to make me see the walking dead - those so wrecked by substance-abuse as to be virtual zombies. it also makes me see mummies with their crepe bandages, parts falling away, no longer all in one piece . . . the list goes on.

perception can only take one so far - the skill of the author has to be there in the first place to lay the crumb-trail that leads the imagination.

 

[twelveoone]

and so you had built enough character into your characters for the colours and textures of 'decrepit albino flesh' to make me see the walking dead - those so wrecked by substance-abuse as to be virtual zombies. it also makes me see mummies with their crepe bandages, parts falling away, no longer all in one piece . . . the list goes on.

perception can only take one so far - the skill of the author has to be there in the first place to lay the crumb-trail that leads the imagination.

i.e. pointers, Harry. Senna and I always had that argument
otherwise you wind up with the Stanley Fish experiment
You're over reading, butters "mummies with their crepe bandages" merely band-aids and nothing more, actually I did have scabs in the deleted part.

 

[HarryHill]

i.e. pointers, Harry. Senna and I always had that argument
otherwise you wind up with the Stanley Fish experiment

When will analysts look at the presentation of their own work to consider the reader. Hard to read that typeset

Yeah got pointers ...Crumbs ...The witch's trail of gingerbread treats
that led H & G to her door. or away, which was it? I can relate to it in the form of a line of dominoes falling with the first tip then running away. Predetermined

Crumbs... Context, subtext, pretext, ....kotex?
Ragged reasoning, a bloody line
Yellow ducks and Fuck Daddy...
I finally got the joke, G. ...subtext

As you can see in this short piece. ...but,
is there a but?

 

[twelveoone]

an article, a noun

so far, so good - an unambiguous iamb

a cat

trouble already

is that A cat or ah cat? we'll make it ah cat since we don't want a long vowel, cluttering up the works

so let's continue on to build a pentameter

a cat,/ a dog,/

follow?

a cat,/ a dog,/ a rat,/ a pig,/ a nymph/

say it, say it three times, something happens that isn't quite right, is it? did some of the articles become a little less unstressed, did one of the nouns become less stressed?
I'll bet in a least one place, maybe two, you slipped in the long vowel A
and the nouns? you have an internal rhyme cat/rat, a plosive pig, and wtf a nymph, (new and tricky information - it is not quite like the others)
now did you pronoun it as ah nymph?

but you did hear the meter, right?

my guess, at least half of you heard something close to a four beat line. ("dog" most likely to be suppressed)
(or even five, but not iambic, maybe even six)
not to worry, some have made the case the that the so-called pentameter is often a four beat line, and sometimes less, sometimes more

yet a type of scansion clearly shows this to be perfect iambic pentameter,
the problem is you don't hear scansion
a different type would pick up a different reading, depending upon the performance



metre must be assigned, both at the front (writer) and at the end (reader).
in and of itself, it doesn't exist


what everyone will read pretty much the same is the commas, ironic, huh?

EOR
end of rant

 

[Angeline]

an article, a noun

so far, so good - an unambiguous iamb

a cat

trouble already

is that A cat or ah cat? we'll make it ah cat since we don't want a long vowel, cluttering up the works

so let's continue on to build a pentameter

a cat,/ a dog,/

follow?

a cat,/ a dog,/ a rat,/ a pig,/ a nymph/

say it, say it three times, something happens that isn't quite right, is it? did some of the articles become a little less unstressed, did one of the nouns become less stressed?
I'll bet in a least one place, maybe two, you slipped in the long vowel A
and the nouns? you have an internal rhyme cat/rat, a plosive pig, and wtf a nymph, (new and tricky information - it is not quite like the others)
now did you pronoun it as ah nymph?

but you did hear the meter, right?

my guess, at least half of you heard something close to a four beat line. ("dog" most likely to be suppressed)
(or even five, but not iambic, maybe even six)
not to worry, some have made the case the that the so-called pentameter is often a four beat line, and sometimes less, sometimes more

yet a type of scansion clearly shows this to be perfect iambic pentameter,
the problem is you don't hear scansion
a different type would pick up a different reading, depending upon the performance



metre must be assigned, both at the front (writer) and at the end (reader).
in and of itself, it doesn't exist


what everyone will read pretty much the same is the commas, ironic, huh?

EOR
end of rant

Yes, especially because they are the most likely piece of a poem to be changed by translation or even just publication.