Can We Talk About Race?

[SimonDoom]

Can we have a Mod close this thread?

No. This is a terrible idea. The OP's question was legitimate and interesting. The relationship between race and erotica is an interesting, very difficult, but totally legitimate question.

 

[ElectricBlue]

How has this thread been going on for over a year?

It hasn't. It was started 5th August this year.

Can we have a Mod close this thread? I think the original poster had an honest question and it turned into arguments about phenotypes and bizarre things that have nothing to do with anything.

That's not the way it works around here. Threads typically become heated, go off on tangents; but volatility tends to self-moderate or posts gets discreetly removed.

It's rare for a thread to get shut down unless it gets super abusive or breaches site policy rules. This one is typical of a fairly intense debate, it's had its popcorn moments but on the whole most folk are being civil. I say most, not all.

I suspect the site is watching, though.

 

[LAHomedog]

I think it's nuts.

Someone with a history of less than a month, four posts, tells us to stop, then starts a long post of his/her own opinion, and then tells the Mod to close the thread?

A number of statements in that post are extremely over-exaggerated and in no relation to the topic, some of the statements are far too general
'Good writing is about good characters first.' - Good writing is catering your readership.


Write what you know
Write with empathy
Write a good character

Why would you limit yourself?
- Who knows about Sci-Fi;
- what's wrong with abstract - cold - chilly stories if that gives the right atmosphere;
- what's the idea about 'good character' - a good person, or a person with depth? Why can't we write strokers for the stroker-fans?

Too often we get complaints that the stories are not inclusive enough, and now we're told to write what we know? I write my own stories, and I decide whether I want to be inclusive or not.

And no, I don't think the discussion here touches my 'Interracial' stories, because they are written from a very different dynamic (very few tropes, as as I know) but just the idea that someone can, out of the blue, tell us what to do... Completely nuts.

Agree.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Funny thing is; if you just write arbitrary race-less characters and use neutral or seemingly neutral names... people will just assume characters are white. You're perogative to avoid racial stereotypes, archetypes, espcially if you don't know enough about a race(despite racial monoliths not existing), it's rather admirable, many do say leave things to the readers imagination, you can still give a bit of direction to the word forged pictures you create. This is something black writers have talked about; white being default, by whatever reason. Sometimes names and actions can give an idea stereotypically, but given reality that blacks, whites, whatever often share same spaces and have similar infuences, like rap music, living in low class areas, and anime, it can come down to names. Who is Skyler Phillips, David Johnson, and Laquan Jenkins? I think the former and latter can easilly be figured out, the middle can go either way.

I'm a white girl from deep in the woods, living in the heart of a majority black city. My family here is black. My neighbors are mostly black. I am keenly aware that there are cultural differences between the races on matters great and small. Pretending they don't exist is just as disrespectful as turning them into stereotypes.

If you are trying to write realistic characters (and if you aren't, that's fine, too) you ought to be able to describe them as they are. If, for example, you are writing about a young black man in Detroit, and you feel it's important to tell the reader what music he listens to, it's probably not Taylor Swift. If it is, there ought to be a reason for it, not just because you wanted to avoid the cliche of having him listen to hip hop.

Conversely, if your character is a ninety year old white woman who listens to rap, you're likely to embarrass yourself.

My father in law once said, "If you don't see color, you can't hear Coltrane."

 

[CyranoJ]

My father in law once said, "If you don't see color, you can't hear Coltrane."

I really like this.

 

[CyranoJ]

I think it's nuts.

Someone with a history of less than a month, four posts, tells us to stop, then starts a long post of his/her own opinion, and then tells the Mod to close the thread?

I should've been clearer: their thoughts on the writing front seemed interesting (although that said, I do take your point in your responses to some of that content, too). Didn't mean to endorse the "close-the-thread" sentiment, which is indeed a bit much. It's not like a thread moving into territory beyond the initial remit of the OP is necessarily some kind of crisis.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Funny thing is; if you just write arbitrary race-less characters and use neutral or seemingly neutral names... people will just assume characters are white. You're perogative to avoid racial stereotypes, archetypes, espcially if you don't know enough about a race(despite racial monoliths not existing), it's rather admirable, many do say leave things to the readers imagination, you can still give a bit of direction to the word forged pictures you create. This is something black writers have talked about; white being default, by whatever reason. Sometimes names and actions can give an idea stereotypically, but given reality that blacks, whites, whatever often share same spaces and have similar infuences, like rap music, living in low class areas, and anime, it can come down to names. Who is Skyler Phillips, David Johnson, and Laquan Jenkins? I think the former and latter can easilly be figured out, the middle can go either way.

I have a friend who is a UPS driver with name Lasha. One would assume she's black. One would be, not only wrong, but wrong all the way around. He's white.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm a white girl from deep in the woods, living in the heart of a majority black city. My family here is black. My neighbors are mostly black. I am keenly aware that there are cultural differences between the races on matters great and small. Pretending they don't exist is just as disrespectful as turning them into stereotypes."

We are sort of opposite. You married into a black family, I was adopted into a white one.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I should've been clearer: their thoughts on the writing front seemed interesting (although that said, I do take your point in your responses to some of that content, too). Didn't mean to endorse the "close-the-thread" sentiment, which is indeed a bit much. It's not like a thread moving into territory beyond the initial remit of the OP is necessarily some kind of crisis.

I kind of misunderstood your statement at first. then looking at their post and not just the "Close the thread" realized what you were getting at. Should have removed some of the quoted post to clarify your position, maybe?

 

[CyranoJ]

I kind of misunderstood your statement at first. then looking at their post and not just the "Close the thread" realized what you were getting at. Should have removed some of the quoted post to clarify your position, maybe?

Yeah, probably.

 

[MillieDynamite]

My father in law once said, "If you don't see color, you can't hear Coltrane."

If free jazz don't move you inside, you dead already.

 

[LAHomedog]

If free jazz don't move you inside, you dead already.

I believe you can say that about all music.

 

[SunnyU2]

I'm a white girl from deep in the woods, living in the heart of a majority black city. My family here is black. My neighbors are mostly black. I am keenly aware that there are cultural differences between the races on matters great and small. Pretending they don't exist is just as disrespectful as turning them into stereotypes.

If you are trying to write realistic characters (and if you aren't, that's fine, too) you ought to be able to describe them as they are. If, for example, you are writing about a young black man in Detroit, and you feel it's important to tell the reader what music he listens to, it's probably not Taylor Swift. If it is, there ought to be a reason for it, not just because you wanted to avoid the cliche of having him listen to hip hop.

Conversely, if your character is a ninety year old white woman who listens to rap, you're likely to embarrass yourself.

My father in law once said, "If you don't see color, you can't hear Coltrane."

Your father in law is wrong

if you see color you can't hear music

 

[ElectricBlue]

Your father in law is wrong

if you see color you can't hear music

What on earth does this mean? Are you trying to be clever, or have I missed something?

 

[MillieDynamite]

What on earth does this mean? Are you trying to be clever, or have I missed something?

She may be trying to be clever, but I (edit) don't (inserted) think she is.

White's may be able to play jazz or even write jazz, but blacks created it. Jazz and Blues are the creations of blacks in the United States. It was created from inside them, from suffering and oppression. I'm not being racist. But when whites moved into jazz it changed a bit, not for the worse, not for the better, just different. But still it was created by the Afro-American community.

Much as the Beatles built on the sound they heard from America, (Elvis Presley being one of their primary sources) Elvis and others, built on and changed Afro-American music into a hybrid with the roots of this new music springing from soul, jazz, and the style called rhythm and blues, r'n'b, and Evils and others morphed these styles into Rocky-a-Billy and Rock & Roll. So the R&R was born. The haters of the time, called Rock N Roll black music played by white performers, however it was hybrid and played by the best of both races.

But Jazz, the Blues, Soul and color has every thing to do with birth of Rock & Roll.

 

[ElectricBlue]

But Jazz, the Blues, Soul and color has every thing to do with birth of Rock & Roll.

No doubt whatsoever about that, no argument.

I think the post was trying to be clever, but I can't quite see how.

 

[MillieDynamite]

No doubt whatsoever about that, no argument.

I think the post was trying to be clever, but I can't quite see how.

Yeah, I fucked up my line but edited it now. Thanks.

 

[MelissaBaby]

She may be trying to be clever, but I (edit) don't (inserted) think she is.

White's may be able to play jazz or even write jazz, but blacks created it. Jazz and Blues are the creations of blacks in the United States. It was created from inside them, from suffering and oppression. I'm not being racist. But when whites moved into jazz it changed a bit, not for the worse, not for the better, just different. But still it was created by the Afro-American community.

Much as the Beatles built on the sound they heard from America, (Elvis Presley being one of their primary sources) Elvis and others, built on and changed Afro-American music into a hybrid with the roots of this new music springing from soul, jazz, and the style called rhythm and blues, r'n'b, and Evils and others morphed these styles into Rocky-a-Billy and Rock & Roll. So the R&R was born. The haters of the time, called Rock N Roll black music played by white performers, however it was hybrid and played by the best of both races.

But Jazz, the Blues, Soul and color has every thing to do with birth of Rock & Roll.

Just so. The point is that the cultural heritage of Black America and his experiences as a Black man, is an intrinsic component of John Coltrane's (and of course by extension that of other Black artists) music and that to deny it is to not be able to fully appreciate it.

 

[LAHomedog]

Much as the Beatles built on the sound they heard from America, (Elvis Presley being one of their primary sources) Elvis and others, built on and changed Afro-American music into a hybrid with the roots of this new music springing from soul, jazz, and the style called rhythm and blues, r'n'b, and Evils and others morphed these styles into Rocky-a-Billy and Rock & Roll. So the R&R was born. The haters of the time, called Rock N Roll black music played by white performers, however it was hybrid and played by the best of both races.

But Jazz, the Blues, Soul and color has every thing to do with birth of Rock & Roll.

Well, virtually everything you said here is musically and historically inaccurate about R&B, rock & roll, and the Beatles and Elvis, but I applaud the attitude.

BTW: Most rock journalists and historians now say the very first rock & roll song was "Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats recorded in the Sun Studios in Memphis in 1951. Jackie Brenston was actually Ike Turner, and the Delta Cats were really Turner's Kings of Rhythm. Rock and Roll was being played way before Bill Haley and His Comets brought it to white radio via DJ Alan Freed in Cleveland. He made the term "rock and roll" popular and that is why the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland, Ohio.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, virtually everything you said here is musically and historically inaccurate about R&B, rock & roll, and the Beatles and Elvis, but I applaud the attitude.

Actually, no, it isn’t inaccurate at all. I wasn’t talking about the Rock & Roll started in the black community, but its crossover to the white community and the reaction of the white establishment to the music.

RnB was a progression from pure blues. In the beginning, a singer either sang acapella or was accompanied by a single instrument. But that, as stated, wasn’t my point.

Elvis and, to a lesser degree, Johnny Cash influenced the Beatles, which was something they, the members of the band, have stated. Eric Clapton was heavily influenced by BB King (who sort of invented rock roll guitar performance art). I know this about Clapton because he to said it was so.

My point was that Rock n Roll (which described how people danced to the music) scared the bejesus out of the white establishment when whites began to perform R&R and whites began to dance to it. My comment was directed at the color of the origin in response to the stupid commentary, “You can’t see color and hear music.”

As a matter of other musical histories, Jazz became an integral part of Mystery Television in the 1950s. Jack Webb, an amateur musician himself, loved Jazz. He was a lifelong jazz enthusiast and included Jazz in many of the episodes as background music. Following suit, many PI and other mystery series incorporated Jazz as an element in make-up the shows. Perry Mason, Peter Gunn, 77 Sunset Strip, to name three.

As an aside comment, Jack Webb’s personal life was better defined by his love of Jazz than his interest in police work. He had a collection of more than 6,000 jazz recordings.

I was talking about color and music, not the history of Rock N Roll. But the history of race in America.

But thanks for your appreciation of my efforts.

 

[jaF0]

What little bit of Coltraine I've heard sucks. BAD. Downright terrible. Sounds like a 5 year old found a rusty sax in the alley and started tooting on it, never having seen one before. Totally ruins the cuts in his set with Miles Davis. Maybe he did better stuff, but this is so bad, I'm not willing to try more.

Gimme Miles Davis, Oscar Peterson, Jon Faddis, Noel Pointer, Cedar Walton, Herbie Hancock, Count Basie, Wayne Shorter or a whole host of others, but toss that Coltraine crap in the dumpster.

 

[MillieDynamite]

What little bit of Coltraine I've heard sucks. BAD. Downright terrible. Sounds like a 5 year old found a rusty sax in the alley and started tooting on it, never having seen one before. Totally ruins the cuts in his set with Miles Davis. Maybe he did better stuff, but this is so bad, I'm not willing to try more.

Gimme Miles Davis, Oscar Peterson, Jon Faddis, Noel Pointer, Cedar Walton, Herbie Hancock, Count Basie, Wayne Shorter or a whole host of others, but toss that Coltraine crap in the dumpster.

You left out Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong, shame on you!

 

[NoJo]

I believe a Turkish man holds the record. But you rarely see any BTC stories on here.

 

[NoJo]

Well I'm glad music still arouses passion here, even if it's just flag-waving passion

 

[Bramblethorn]

Just so. The point is that the cultural heritage of Black America and his experiences as a Black man, is an intrinsic component of John Coltrane's (and of course by extension that of other Black artists) music and that to deny it is to not be able to fully appreciate it.

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZRePZ1OqQE