Do you use editors?

Well now I feel bad about it. But wait, lit is fixing it for me, so...
 
*Sigh* For the three-millionth time.

Actual print does not/never has used two spaces after terminal punctuation. It uses one space plus a small slice of leading. The typewriter couldn't handle this. So, for typing, during the typewriter era that ended two decades ago, two spaces were used. Even during the typewriter era, though, actual printing never used two spaces.

The two spaces were a temporary fix during the rather short-lived typewriter era and even then only for typing. The typewriter era ended two decades ago. The computer manages the necessary adjustments when you provide only onr space. If you provide two spaces on the computer, you're actually making even more white space after terminal punctuation than the typewriter two-space operation provides.
Couldn’t agree more!

Em
 
I'm quite sure Lit reduces terminal punctuation to the proper one space (with the system adding that skosh bit of leading). It's something their computer system is going to correct automatically. So, all that extra key tapping by the author was useless work. It takes almost no time at all to make that habit adjustment permanently.

I still occasionally get called in by an academic press to help clean up copy before it goes into the publishing system. When an author has sent in copy with two spaces after terminal punctuation, that requires one whole computer pass through the copy to get rid of them and then awareness later that they just might have tapped three times occasionally. No, this doesn't take long, but it's a tell in publishing houses of a sloppy or uninformed author who is going to require more irritating scrutiny across the board than savvy authors will. Everyone in the publishing house puts the house's authors in one of two categories on this. Guess who they treat better and with less scrutiny.

Every wonder how Laurel decides which author's works to almost knee-jerk post in a uniform two days and who to hold for a week for deeper scrutiny?
Your continuing edits are really making me question my life choices! I may have to try it out. But my eye enjoys that bit of space when I'm working. I could always do a replace at the end. I guess it would matter more for something going elsewhere, since it doesn't affect the final product here and I'm sure the trimming is automatic.
 
Your continuing edits are really making me question my life choices! I may have to try it out. But my eye enjoys that bit of space when I'm working. I could always do a replace at the end. I guess it would matter more for something going elsewhere, since it doesn't affect the final product here and I'm sure the trimming is automatic.
Did you read my last posting? Maybe Laurel does see such things as the obsolete (and stubborn?) publishing mistakes the authors here fall into, like the archaic use of terminal spacing(?) Maybe it's just like not fully trusting authors who skirt the underage issue and thus giving them extra scrutiny. Maybe she does have a mental list of authors who need extra scrutiny and ones who don't. Maybe if/when you are tempted to ask why posting of your stories is taking longer for you than for some of the others of us, you really don't have to ask why. Maybe Laurel sees reason not to have you on the expedite list that involves technical presentation (e.g., attempts to use jazzy, individualistic formatting) rather than content. Just maybe.
 
I mean, posting doesn't take long for me. I doubt she's making any decisions based on whitespace the system is trimming automatically. But like I said, you convinced me to give it a try!
 
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Speaking of terminal punctuation and spacing...I have found I need to put in two spaces before and after any italics or otherwise the italics runs right into the normal font. Any other suggestions besides using italics less often, which I am trying to do?
Also, italics disappears after a 'carriage return' and needs to be indicated for each individual paragraph if multiple paragraphs are to have italics print.
 
Speaking of terminal punctuation and spacing...I have found I need to put in two spaces before and after any italics or otherwise the italics runs right into the normal font. Any other suggestions besides using italics less often, which I am trying to do?
Also, italics disappears after a 'carriage return' and needs to be indicated for each individual paragraph if multiple paragraphs are to have italics print.
I've noticed that italics no gap in work that uses italics often. Double space would be the most obvious solution. Use what works.

And if you've got multiple paragraphs with italics, first ask yourself why, but then close the italics for every paragraph. Because if you have open italics when the text goes across a Lit page break, the whole next page might convert to italics when you don't want it to. As I discovered the hard way.
 
Difference between having a real editor and a beta reader? Mainly a difference in the credence that should be accorded to the suggestions of the two. Editors should be giving trained guidance, trained above all else in trying to preserve as much of the author in a work as possible but also having some authority in what they are questioning or suggesting. A beta reader should just be taken at the level of "is this spelled right?" or "I don't get what is being said here" or "Didn't you kill her two pages earlier? Why's she walking around now?" The difference between seeing problems and having a trained solution to problems.

When a writer, especially one without much writing experience, looks at a beta reader and sees an editor, they already are half way down a rathole of misdirection and damage to their work. When they clearly see mainly another set of eyes in review, they can stay on the main path. When a beta reader sells themselves as an editor, you are in a whole mound of kimchee. (And that, essentially, is what the Web site is selling here in the form of the volunteer "editor" program.)

Gotcha. I thought that was the distinction you were making but wanted to check.

I do wonder whether writers on a site like this do have that expectation of "editor" though. I'd guess most here, when they talk about an "editor", aren't necessarily assuming the kind of training that you would expect of somebody called "editor" in a professional publishing house.

You most likely didn't have a proofreader. The sole function of a proofreader is to compare an old (dead) copy version with a new (live) copy version of the work and note the exact differences between the two. A proofreader doesn't do anything with misspellings or grammar mistakes if they are the same between the two versions.

I think the definition you give there is the original one, but even within professional publishing there's enough inconsistency about what "proofreading" means that it's never a bad idea to check that both parties agree on what's expected.

For instance, the Australian Government Style Manual offers a definition that's similar to yours, comparing old and new versions for changes, but also involves checking for compliance with a style sheet, and for obvious errors in spelling and grammar (but not for inconsistencies e.g. using two different "correct" spellings for the same word).

Looking at the editorial guide for one of my recent technical publishing jobs, that employer defines the responsibilities of "proofreader" as checking:
  • General page layout and placement of page breaks
  • Consistency between table of contents and main body of the book, including page numbering
  • Compliance with style guide and colour scheme
  • Spelling and grammar
  • Material quoted from other sources is quoted exactly
  • Headers and footers.
By contrast, their definition of "editor" is about coordinating parallel edits from different people, confirming that issues flagged on the previous draft have been addressed, and aspects that require familiarity with the technical subject matter e.g. whether the content is factually accurate and whether it's missing any important points.

So a proofreader is the same as diff? We've had diff for quite a while.
Yes, if you have a version of diff that can compare the new version with an old version that only exists in printed hardcopy, and which can compare the author's original Word or LaTeX version with the PDF'ed version after the layout team have changed the pagination, moved the text around to fit in images, etc. etc.

diff is nice but some things still require a human.
 
*Sigh* For the three-millionth time.

Actual print does not/never has used two spaces after terminal punctuation. It uses one space plus a small slice of leading. The typewriter couldn't handle this. So, for typing, during the typewriter era that ended two decades ago, two spaces were used. Even during the typewriter era, though, actual printing never used two spaces.

The two spaces were a temporary fix during the rather short-lived typewriter era and even then only for typing. The typewriter era ended two decades ago. The computer manages the necessary adjustments when you provide only onr space. If you provide two spaces on the computer, you're actually making even more white space after terminal punctuation than the typewriter two-space operation provides.
If you're writing for HTML, double spaces will disappear anyway when it displays on screen. You have to go out of your way to write a double space that will actually be visible to the reader.
 
Well, no it won't, not only even if you're writing on a computer. I've just come from receiving a manuscript electronically in Word--with double spaces after terminal punctuation. That's sort of irrelevant to the point. The point is that the typewriter era is over. Publishing doesn't put two spaces after terminal punctuation. When you do you're wasting time and creating a mistake. It's not at all hard to learn to do it right and save everyone extra work and irritation.

This reminds me of when I returned from overseas once to a headquarters job of building a news handling system for the office. Ours had collapsed and we'd bought the Washington Evening Star's system when that paper died--just to have a stopgap while we had one custom built for us. Our needs didn't match what the Star's system provided but we made do. When I got into the project and saw the specs we'd given out, they were the spec's for the Star's abandoned system, not the one we wanted to meet our needs. Just like the folks who still have their heads in a typewriter, we weren't asking for what we needed; we were asking for something obsolete that we didn't understand the history of.
 
We now call that function beta reading.

A beta reader, or three, are so great. When you find one, treat them well!

Btw, again thank you to my Beta readers who endure my sporadic writing and perstering. Especially you Kevin. I promise I will focus.

But an Editor, now I tried a few a while ago and it was not great. But you might have better luck.
 
A few thoughts on editing/proofreading/beta reading at Literotica:

The grammar/punctuation/spelling standard needed at Literotica to have a successful, well-received story is not high. There are many stories at Literotica that have great numbers and yet have significant issues with grammar, word choice, spelling, and punctuation. These stories obviously get through the rather mild filters that Literotica sets up. So if your story ISN'T getting through, it probably has more problems than you realize and you should acknowledge it and try to get to the bottom of what the problems are.

About 90% of mechanical and formatting mistakes can be remedied just by knowing a handful of basic rules. Nearly everything you need to know as a practical matter about grammar and punctuation you can learn from very short guides like Strunk & White. Seriously, all you have to learn is about 25 pages. It's probably worth your while to bite the bullet, do the homework, and then save all the time you would later spend dealing with and being puzzled by rejections.

There are plenty of style and grammar guides here at Literotica in the How-To category that are helpful.

Even if you are somewhat uncertain about some of the rules, if you proof really slowly and carefully you can catch many mistakes. Use tools like Grammarly. Don't use them slavishly, but use them because they will highlight possible mistakes that you missed, and then you can decide what to do with them.

Keep in mind that being an editor/proofreader at Literotica is a thankless, unpaid job. I volunteered at one point to be an editor and I edited the rough draft of an incest story by an author who had achieved, by Lit standards, a lot of success, and it was the roughest piece of crap I've ever read. The author literally had done NOTHING to make it presentable, it was in horrible shape, and he left it to me to do all the work that he should have done in the first place. I should have just handed it back, but instead I slogged through it and handed him back a relatively clean version. He published it without giving me any credit for my help. I've never edited or proofread a Literotica story by someone else since then, although I've done a little beta reading.

I think it's fair to say to writers, even if they're not grammar mavens: do the best you can. Try to learn the basic rules, and do the best you can to make sure your draft follows them. It's not that hard to produce a story that will pass Literotica standards. Do this even if you want your story to be edited or proofed by someone else.
 
I used editors when I first started, back in 2007. I didn't know anything about how to write. My early pieces show that. Someone I knew suggested I send my stories to their editors. What I got back told me they didn't know any more about writing than I did. That's when I began to read all the threads that gave tips on how to write a clean copy. A few times I used beta readers, and some were helpful, but now it's just me.
 
I’ve never had an editor, but a couple of compassionate young ladies did some beta-reading for me. Another option, which I also use, is to put it away for a week or more and then go back to it.
 
I’ve never had an editor, but a couple of compassionate young ladies did some beta-reading for me. Another option, which I also use, is to put it away for a week or more and then go back to it.
I don’t have the patience 😬
 
Just to reply to the original post, my conclusion of the process of being an editor and requesting an editor is that humans really can't be relied upon.

I offered to be an editor, and got six requests within a week. I responded to all of them, although I turned one down because extreme BDSM isn't my thing.
The stats are:
Five stories edited.
One grateful response
One explanation as to why my suggestions were all wrong
Three tumbleweeds - no response, no thank you.

I also requested editors for my first story. The stats:
One turned me down - fair enough
Three - no response
Three - offered to edit my story within a week. I sent the story. A month later, still waiting.
One - sent two days ago, in a final desperate attempt.

There should be a rating system for editors, like there is for stories.
 
I like using double spaces! I'm not sure they are preserved in the published version on lit though, seems like it plays fast and loose with whitespace.
Web pages strip out extra white space when they display text. That's a standard part of html rendering.

Unless there is something special they have that preserves them, you won't see the double spaces. I learned to type on a Selectric and double spaces is ingrained for me.
 
I'm quite sure Lit reduces terminal punctuation to the proper one space (with the system adding that skosh bit of leading). It's something their computer system is going to correct automatically. So, all that extra key tapping by the author was useless work. It takes almost no time at all to make that habit adjustment permanently.

I still occasionally get called in by an academic press to help clean up copy before it goes into the publishing system. When an author has sent in copy with two spaces after terminal punctuation, that requires one whole computer pass through the copy to get rid of them and then awareness later that they just might have tapped three times occasionally. No, this doesn't take long, but it's a tell in publishing houses of a sloppy or uninformed author who is going to require more irritating scrutiny across the board than savvy authors will. Everyone in the publishing house puts the house's authors in one of two categories on this. Guess who they treat better and with less scrutiny.

Ever wonder how Laurel decides which author's works to almost knee-jerk post in a uniform two days and who to hold for a week for deeper scrutiny? Go back through the thrice-weekly threads on "How long are your stories taking to post?" and check my almost uniform "still just two days" responses. There's a reason for that--if you want the quicker posting times (It's a generic "you" here; this isn't pointing Emily out just because she's been quoted).
Well, my anecdote is that I double space and my stories average two days to post, so that theory is total bullshit.

Double spacing is not an indication of anything other than when you learned to type. It's a style element, not a law of punctuation.
 
Speaking of terminal punctuation and spacing...I have found I need to put in two spaces before and after any italics or otherwise the italics runs right into the normal font. Any other suggestions besides using italics less often, which I am trying to do?
Also, italics disappears after a 'carriage return' and needs to be indicated for each individual paragraph if multiple paragraphs are to have italics print.
Use the <i></i> tags to be sure that italics are where you want them, rather than relying on a quirk of spacing to do it.
 
Use the <i></i> tags to be sure that italics are where you want them, rather than relying on a quirk of spacing to do it.
It's you and me with the spaces, Dave. Well, I'm giving it a go with singles today. There's... been a lot of ctrl-H-ing.

But I had the same issue with italics. The lean seems to make it appear there is no space between the italicized word and the regular word next to it. And the double space proposed to solve the issue won't work, because, as you pointed out, html won't display the double space.
 
If you're writing for HTML, double spaces will disappear anyway when it displays on screen. You have to go out of your way to write a double space that will actually be visible to the reader.
Well, no it won't, not only even if you're writing on a computer.

...yes, it will. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document_Object_Model/Whitespace

"In the case of HTML, whitespace is largely ignored — whitespace in between words is treated as a single character, and whitespace at the start and end of elements and outside elements is ignored."

I've just come from receiving a manuscript electronically in Word--with double spaces after terminal punctuation.

Word is not HTML. Somebody can compose a Literotica story in Word, and while it's still in Word those unnecessary double spaces will be visible. But when that text is converted to HTML - like when it's published on Literotica - they'll be invisible to anybody reading the resulting webpage. For example, I can enter this in the story submission field:

Screenshot 2023-03-03 at 8.54.04 am.png

But when I hit the preview button, this is how it's going to look:

Screenshot 2023-03-03 at 8.55.15 am.png

That's sort of irrelevant to the point. The point is that the typewriter era is over. Publishing doesn't put two spaces after terminal punctuation. When you do you're wasting time and creating a mistake. It's not at all hard to learn to do it right and save everyone extra work and irritation.

In some contexts this is a problem, and I agree it's a good idea to break the habit. But in the Literotica context, no extra work or irritation is created, because nobody has to go through the story removing double spaces. The software that controls how web pages are displayed will do that automatically.
 
Well, my anecdote is that I double space and my stories average two days to post, so that theory is total bullshit.

Double spacing is not an indication of anything other than when you learned to type. It's a style element, not a law of punctuation.
I actually search and replace double spaces with single spaces in my drafts now, it somehow looks tidier. I also turn on the tilde, and go find the unnecessary spaces at the end of sentences. It's an uneccesary, perfectionist thing, but so what? It's probably a comfort thing, the literary equivalent of sucking a nipple.
 
Use the <i></i> tags to be sure that italics are where you want them, rather than relying on a quirk of spacing to do it.
The issue's not about italics being in the wrong place, it's that italics (and bold) sometimes eat the spaces at transition points. For instance, from AwkwardMD's Sidechain:

The previous two (I hesitate to call them prequels) are titledAttack Decay Sustain ReleaseandThe Beast In Me.

Not certain of the cause, but I suspect it may be something to do with automated conversion from document formats to HTML. I've never had that problem when submitting my own HTML.
 
Well, my anecdote is that I double space and my stories average two days to post, so that theory is total bullshit.

Double spacing is not an indication of anything other than when you learned to type. It's a style element, not a law of punctuation.
Well, frankly, I don't really care what "it's all about me" behavior you feel the need to stick to.
 
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