"Fifty Shades of Grey"

[Keroin]

I have to admit that on a bad day it's kinda hard not to be envious of young adults who can approach an existing community with the expectation that they WILL get what they are looking for. That was not true for me.

I get this, Stella, and yet at the same time...think of other examples. Should I be resentful or envious that a young woman doesn't have to think twice about walking into a martial arts studio now just because it was a big deal for me, and any other woman, twenty-five years ago? Because we had to fight, in every sense of the word, to prove we were equal to men?

You should be proud that you helped pave the way in BDSM. You should feel good that others won't have to deal with the hardships you did. You helped do that. You were a part of that. That's pretty remarkable. Hooray you!

When we help others more fully realize their potential and embrace who they are, that is something to celebrate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Maybe the "community" needs to get it's cliquey kinky nose out of each other's lube and stop thinking that being all tied up in the closet is a "rite of passage" or whatever to acceptance.

Um what?

Someone asked if there was a rite of passage in the old days, and I said yes. I wish the hurdles had been lower. I've done a lot of work to lower those hurdles for newcomers. But you STILL need to know what you're doing. Lucky you-- it will take you decades less time than it took me.

You're welcome.

I get this, Stella, and yet at the same time...think of other examples. Should I be resentful or envious that a young woman doesn't have to think twice about walking into a martial arts studio now just because it was a big deal for me, and any other woman, twenty-five years ago? Because we had to fight, in every sense of the word, to prove we were equal to men?

yes-- on bad days, I do resent all that my younger friends can have so much sooner than I did. Twenty-five years ago, martial arts would have been more doable. Now i have to fight the encroachments of age at the same time as learning the skills.

 

[waaitg]

I know I am in the minority with this, but this is what I think and believe.

Yeah, in a way, the "true believers," the "Old Guard" and "the Elders" did have to pass a test. We had to learn to understand ourselves, forgive ourselves, find our playmates and partners, develop the practices that would give us satisfaction, in spite of isolation and ignorance-- our own no less than the public-- and it has taken nearly a half a century of making mistakes and getting hurt, to create the standards that newcomers so blithely rely on-- and ignore whenever they feel like it.

I have to admit that on a bad day it's kinda hard not to be envious of young adults who can approach an existing community with the expectation that they WILL get what they are looking for. That was not true for me.

I don't mean to discount, dismiss, or minimize the challenges you went through (especially since I am closer to your age then that of the newer generation) but I can't agree with you, as much as I empathize with your experience.

Every generation has challenges they have to overcome. People have selective memory when it comes to both the good and the bad when it comes to the past. And in every generation there are people who have it easy and those who have it rough. At some point though, the "I had it rougher than you did" contest becomes a waste of time because it doesn't accomplish anything.

Who has it rougher? Coming out as gay in a hippie commune where everybody preaches free love in the 60's, or in a Mennonite community in Utah in the 90's?

Who's treated harsher? A poor white family in Hell's kitchen the night Martin Luthor King is assassinated, or an Arabic family that has lived in rural Alabama for 30 years the week after 9/11?

If people have it so much easier today because they have more information, then you also have to include other facts, like the images in the media they are bombarded with resulting in the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world.

What about gunshot deaths among teens? A teenager in the mid 90's was 2 and 1/2 times more likely to die from Gun shot wounds than one born 20 years earlier.

If you were "outed" in the 70's, you could move. Today if you are outed, you may just be blackballed for life. In the past you could at least hide. Today your mistakes are permanently public (Imagine your career prospects after your play partner accidentally posts your play session online).

Like I said, every generation has its' challenges (Polio vs AIDS) and I believe that it is myopic to focus on the benefits one generation enjoys, and to ignore the problems they face. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do, but judging an entire generation when you haven't experienced their challenges is not what I would expect given the other posts I have read by you.

W~

 

[Stella_Omega]

waaitg,

You asked -- in wording that implied you already knew the answer should be "no"-- if BDSM old timers had to go through any sort of trouble to get where they are now, and I told you; yes they did.

You don't have to like it.

But do not start playing oppression olympics.

I lived through hundreds of AIDS deaths in the eighties. My friends were decimated.

After 9/11 I took two Sikh men into my car to protect them from angry rednecks who thought all turbans were the same-- men I did not know-- and drove the hell away from there.

I have lived among young people more than people my age. I have worked to help drop the hurdles that were so very onerous for me.

judging an entire generation when you haven't experienced their challenges is not what I would expect given the other posts I have read by you.

And if that's what you think I said-- then I know not to expect a careful reading from you.

For fuck's sake don't be a total douche okay lol

 

[knot_sweet]

Um what?

Someone asked if there was a rite of passage in the old days, and I said yes. I wish the hurdles had been lower. I've done a lot of work to lower those hurdles for newcomers. But you STILL need to know what you're doing. Lucky you-- it will take you decades less time than it took me.

You're welcome. .

Yes, I for one, am quite grateful for the ease I can find information. I am perfectly aware that others have done alot of the spadework building resources and a community I can come to and ask questions of and find emotional support from.

But the "community" is still not accepted amongst "normal" people.
In that sense, we still have to fight just as hard.

And that's what I resent. I resent that just because there is a "community" that has barely learned to tolerate each other, there seems to be some sense of moral or kinky "superiority" that their struggle was harder than mine.

Until "normal" people stop thinking of us as "perverted" or depraved or disgusting, we will keep getting people who feel bad about who they are. And no amount of "google" searching replaces the need for well informed, experienced people to talk to. It just makes it easier to find them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But the "community" is still not accepted amongst "normal" people.

no shit, sherlock.

Did you think they ever would? Do you really think you have a right to be accepted for your kink? No, you kinda don't, any more than i do.

And that's what I resent. I resent that just because there is a "community" that has barely learned to tolerate each other, there seems to be some sense of moral or kinky "superiority" that their struggle was harder than mine.

Well, some of us gotta get some comfort somewhere. As I always say-- being oppressed, or feeling that one is oppressed, does NOT turn anyone into a saint. It just adds oppression onto the baggage they already carry. And BDSM folk are not necessarily evenly balanced anyways. They are folks who are wired weird, who are lacking in normative standards, who want more.

Until "normal" people stop thinking of us as "perverted" or depraved or disgusting, we will keep getting people who feel bad about who they are. And no amount of "google" searching replaces the need for well informed, experienced people to talk to. It just makes it easier to find them.

That might be the understatement of the year.

Before the internet? It was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find people, and even more nearly impossible to cross reference what you were told. I have mentioned, I think, that I once damaged someone's wrist because I did not know how to tie hands safely. I carried scars for a couple years from being belted-- no safewords. We didn't know about them.

I would never have spoken up in a bar or someplace. I hide behind a pseudonym so that I can tell you what I know and share my stories without fear of reprisals.

Who would you be talking to, without the internet? If you've met someone-- completely aside from the web-- where did they come from?

 

[knot_sweet]

no shit, sherlock.

Did you think they ever would? Do you really think you have a right to be accepted for your kink? No, you kinda don't, any more than i do

Before the internet? It was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find people, and even more nearly impossible to cross reference what you were told. I have mentioned, I think, that I once damaged someone's wrist because I did not know how to tie hands safely. I carried scars for a couple years from being belted-- no safewords. We didn't know about them.

Yes, dammit, I want other people to be ok with my "kink". I hate that word so much. I want it to not be something I have to hide in case I get fired. I want it to be ok so my son's father can't use it as legal leverage in a custody fight if he finds out. I want to say openly and with pride "this is my dominant" the same way other people can say girlfriend or boyfriend. I want the same legal rights as non kinky people. And if I have to support god awful crap like this stupid book as a stepping stone to equality then so be it.

And as I've said, the internet is great for finding the community, and it does stop alot of the incidental damage that occurs when people don't have a way to reach out and educate each other. For that I am always and extremely grateful.

But the judgement for how you express your kink or not choosing to follow the unspoken community rules is almost as bad as the downright prejudice I deal with from normal people.

 

[BiBunny]

You know...I don't want to know about other people's sex lives, and I feel certain they don't want to know about mine. So I don't get the need to spread the word that BDSM can heal the sick and raise the dead.

And not to--to borrow a term from Stella--get into the oppression Olympics here, but it's a hell of a lot harder being actively bisexual and poly than it is being in a heterocentric monogamous D/s relationship because you know what? That looks "normal" to other people. My (hypothetical) two boyfriends and two girlfriends aren't "normal," no matter how you spin it.

 

[knot_sweet]

You know...I don't want to know about other people's sex lives, and I feel certain they don't want to know about mine. So I don't get the need to spread the word that BDSM can heal the sick and raise the dead.

And not to--to borrow a term from Stella--get into the oppression Olympics here, but it's a hell of a lot harder being actively bisexual and poly than it is being in a heterocentric monogamous D/s relationship because you know what? That looks "normal" to other people. My (hypothetical) two boyfriends and two girlfriends aren't "normal," no matter how you spin it.

You made me laugh... not in a bad way at your opinion or anything like that., I just find your choice of phrasing amusing. Not sure if that makes sense...

I'm not saying we should beat people over the head with a BDSM stick (although the analogy is quite humerous). And of course BDSM isn't the wonder cure for the world.

But what's wrong with wanting some of what everyone else has? And if I
have to shout to get it then by god I will.

As for the whole poly thing...don't even get me started. Trying to explain to people that boyfriend a is married but loves me too. That I am not the "bit on the side" or a home wrecking slut. That boyfriend b knows about boyfriend a and vice versa. It's impossible to explain. I can't comment about the bi or gay aspect not having any personal knowledge of that. But I imagine it makes it even harder.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, dammit, I want other people to be ok with my "kink". I hate that word so much. I want it to not be something I have to hide in case I get fired. I want it to be ok so my son's father can't use it as legal leverage in a custody fight if he finds out. I want to say openly and with pride "this is my dominant" the same way other people can say girlfriend or boyfriend. I want the same legal rights as non kinky people..

And that, my dear, is the the rite of passage we all go through.

You are going through it now.

You have come up against the irresistible force, the immovable object-- society.

You can't call it "marriage rights" the way GLBT can, because-- if you want to marry your dominant guy you CAN.

And if I have to support god awful crap like this stupid book as a stepping stone to equality then so be it.

it doesn't matter if you support the book or not, you know. it's already a best seller.

What you have to do is be ready to support the newcomers who show up after reading it.

 

[BiBunny]

You made me laugh... not in a bad way at your opinion or anything like that., I just find your choice of phrasing amusing. Not sure if that makes sense...

It's cool. I'm just a douchebag most of the time, and it can occasionally be amusing.

I'm not saying we should beat people over the head with a BDSM stick (although the analogy is quite humerous). And of course BDSM isn't the wonder cure for the world.

But what's wrong with wanting some of what everyone else has? And if I
have to shout to get it then by god I will.

As for the whole poly thing...don't even get me started. Trying to explain to people that boyfriend a is married but loves me too. That I am not the "bit on the side" or a home wrecking slut. That boyfriend b knows about boyfriend a and vice versa. It's impossible to explain. I can't comment about the bi or gay aspect not having any personal knowledge of that. But I imagine it makes it even harder.

I had no idea you were poly. I apologize for making assumptions. I personally don't care if people know what I do as far as BDSM goes, so we disagree on that, but I can totally get behind the whole not wanting to hide your multiple boyfriends, etc. thing. It's one thing to hide what you do in the bedroom, but it's another thing altogether to feel as though you have to hide your whole damn relationship.

Seriously, I'm really sorry about that. <---shamefaced Bunny

 

[Keroin]

yes-- on bad days, I do resent all that my younger friends can have so much sooner than I did. Twenty-five years ago, martial arts would have been more doable. Now i have to fight the encroachments of age at the same time as learning the skills.

Dude, I get it. I used martial arts as an example of the wider gender issues - because those parallel the current topic.

If I was a young girl today? Oh man, the things I would do that I couldn't dream of way back when...*sigh*

And I understand it's a "bad day" thing.

Just trying to spread the positivity. I love knowing that the shit I took over the years, pushing my way into various male territories, may have helped open the doors for the women behind me. For pioneers like yourself, there has to be joy in accomplishment, doesn't there?

(See how I just left myself wide open? )

 

[knot_sweet]

And that, my dear, is the the rite of passage we all go through.

You are going through it now.

You have come up against the irresistible force, the immovable object-- society.

You can't call it "marriage rights" the way GLBT can, because-- if you want to marry your dominant guy you CAN.

it doesn't matter if you support the book or not, you know. it's already a best seller.

What you have to do is be ready to support the newcomers who show up after reading it.

I so don't consider it a rite of passage if I'm still travelling down it seven years later.

And yes, I will of course be glad of the genuinely curious or exploratory people who show up because of tnis book.

What I don't have to accept is the amount of people who jump out and say "I'm a sub, I read the book" without having the damm foggiest clue what the hell they are on about. The people who think that getting turned on by a piece of fantasy erotica means that of course they are submissive.

 

[knot_sweet]

It's cool. I'm just a douchebag most of the time, and it can occasionally be amusing.



I had no idea you were poly. I apologize for making assumptions. I personally don't care if people know what I do as far as BDSM goes, so we disagree on that, but I can totally get behind the whole not wanting to hide your multiple boyfriends, etc. thing. It's one thing to hide what you do in the bedroom, but it's another thing altogether to feel as though you have to hide your whole damn relationship.

Seriously, I'm really sorry about that. <---shamefaced Bunny

Aw BiBunny, it's ok.. I'm new here and we're all still learning about each other. I just want to give you the biggest hug now. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. Honest. Sorry...

And I will seriously caps lock you to death next time you call yourself a douchebag like that. Unless it means something non insulting that I don't know about?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I so don't consider it a rite of passage if I'm still travelling down it seven years later.

what you think you get to set a time limit on life experiences? Seven years-- give it another seven. And seven more. Eventually, you'll figure out that it's not going to happen. That you will have to make your own comfort because society is not going to give it to you. And THAT will be your passage.

And yes, I will of course be glad of the genuinely curious or exploratory people who show up because of tnis book.

What I don't have to accept is the amount of people who jump out and say "I'm a sub, I read the book" without having the damm foggiest clue what the hell they are on about. The people who think that getting turned on by a piece of fantasy erotica means that of course they are submissive.

Who will be complaining about your elitist snobbery and your attitude of kinky superiority.

 

[BiBunny]

Aw BiBunny, it's ok.. I'm new here and we're all still learning about each other. I just want to give you the biggest hug now. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. Honest. Sorry...

And I will seriously caps lock you to death next time you call yourself a douchebag like that. Unless it means something non insulting that I don't know about?

Eh, you didn't make me feel bad. Promise. I'm just good at putting my foot in my mouth.

And my BFF and I totally call each other douchebags (among other things) as terms of endearment all the time.

 

[waaitg]

waaitg,

You asked -- in wording that implied you already knew the answer should be "no"-- if BDSM old timers had to go through any sort of trouble to get where they are now, and I told you; yes they did.

Actually no. My first post was a general commentary (empathizing with both perspectives) and in it I admitted that the "old timers" did face difficulties.

After you replied to it, My second post was to point was that the new people face different difficulties and I tried to name different groups to highlight that point. My point being that trying to evaluate or quantify the difficulties people face is not a black and white comparison and that by picking and choosing what struggles are worthy or not, diminishes us.

It was never a personal attack on you and yet your reply was quite defensive. My apologies if that is how it came across. I don't expect you to change your mind because it is based upon your beliefs. What I wanted was you to consider the perspective I raised (I.e., that the new generation may face newer challenges that you did not face) because it was absent from your post.

But do not start playing oppression olympics.

I lived through hundreds of AIDS deaths in the eighties. My friends were decimated.

If by "oppression olympics" you mean that me knowing only 2 close friends (and a 3rd acquaintance) who have died as AIDS is less of a tragedy, then you win these Olympic games.

After 9/11 I took two Sikh men into my car to protect them from angry rednecks who thought all turbans were the same-- men I did not know-- and drove the hell away from there.

And I floss every morning, have volunteered with several organizations that keep battered women away from abusive partners and enjoy cheesecake. But none of these are relevant to the topic.

And if that's what you think I said-- then I know not to expect a careful reading from you.

For fuck's sake don't be a total douche okay lol

And some quiet chuckles to you (but with sadness and sincerity and minus the profanity) and congratulations on your certainty. This started as a disagreement over a pretty minor matter in the big picture of things (does the next generation have a duty to be grateful for the strides those before them have made?).

And yet, even though this was never a question of your character or about moral superiority, I am puzzled why this has escalated to the point you are citing Oppression Olympics, 100's of AIDS Deaths and rescuing Sikh's from 9/11 Mobs. (I still don't see the connection).

I don't know why you decided to treat my disagreement as being either personal or as an attack. The only thing though that I would ask is that you extend the same courtesy (about not expecting anything) to the people who are trying to learn about BDSM today. But if you choose not to <shrugs> that is your choice.

W~

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hmm.
Waaitg, is English not your native language?

 

[waaitg]

Hmm.
Waaitg, is English not your native language?

Yes dear, it is.

Although to be fair I am an immigrant (from the UK).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes dear, it is.

Although to be fair I am an immigrant (from the UK).

Just wondering. I don't think my writing is that difficult to understand.

 

[waaitg]

Hmm.
Waaitg, is English not your native language?

Just wondering. I don't think my writing is that difficult to understand.

That's all right. I understand well enough to know that when someone would rather insult me than address the points I raised, their writing speaks for itself.

I wish you well with your debates with others.

W~

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's all right. I understand well enough to know that when someone would rather insult me than address the points I raised, their writing speaks for itself.

I wish you well with your debates with others.

W~

I really wish you would re-read-- with a little more care.

 

[knot_sweet]

what you think you get to set a time limit on life experiences? Seven years-- give it another seven. And seven more. Eventually, you'll figure out that it's not going to happen. That you will have to make your own comfort because society is not going to give it to you. And THAT will be your passage. Who will be complaining about your elitist snobbery and your attitude of kinky superiority.

A rite of passage, by definition, is something done once, as a tradition, to gain acceptance into a group.

.A lifetime of facing ignorance and prejudice and possible social ostrisisation if I out myself is not a rite of passage.

And no, I will not ever shrug my shoulders and think "this is how it is, I should just go with it"

As for my other point; There are going to be two types of people flooding the community because of this book.

The ones going "OMFG, that was, like, soooo hawt, I am so totally, like, a sub now you know" , begging some random person to dominate them, and getting all huffy screaming "but the book says I am" when they flaunt their new "totally awesome submissiveness" at a community full of kinksters who laugh at them.

Then there will be the others who think "this is something that I can relate to / want to find out more about / wish someone else would help me understand". These are the people for whom a little bell will go off inside their head and they will come to the community searching for answers and probably alot confused.

The small number of type two this book will bring in are more than worth the others and why I appreciate the occasional fumble mainstream society has at the knickers of BDSM.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The ones going "OMFG, that was, like, soooo hawt, I am so totally, like, a sub now you know" , begging some random person to dominate them, and getting all huffy screaming "but the book says I am" when they flaunt their new "totally awesome submissiveness" at a community full of kinksters who laugh at them.

Then there will be the others who think "this is something that I can relate to / want to find out more about / wish someone else would help me understand". These are the people for whom a little bell will go off inside their head and they will come to the community searching for answers and probably alot confused.

How will you tell the difference?

 

[Loverskitten]

How will you tell the difference?

Really? You can tell, especially around here.