"Fifty Shades of Grey"

[Stella_Omega]

thanks stella for some reason the pages were hard to highlight and paste, but i got them.


it's an interesting question: Master is heavily borrowing concepts and ideas from Twilight; so much so that Master cannot be sold, unless EL wants a lawsuit from Meyer. (the basic fanfic implicit agreement--no money off my characters, no lawsuit).

EL, however, redrafts Master,90% copying *herself* except that she renames the characters (hence not plagiarism). This redraft is marketed (new fiction, says Random House) as 50 Shades and makes millions.

Surely 50 Shades then is heavily borrowed (in concept & character), and since it's sold, EL can be sued by Meyers for borrowing concepts and characters. I'm not commenting on morality or literary artistry here (though the latter is NOT great), just the law.

"Borrowing concepts and characters" is not plagiarism.

It suddenly occurs to me that "Master" SHOULD have been presented as original fiction "Inspired by" in the first place, even if she were presenting it to the twilight fandom. Hindsight, baby! But fandom readerships are... funny. It's taken one friend of mine about four years to get her fandom readers to TRUST her enough to read her original works, which means that she's had to continue framing original concepts in fandom frames to keep her readers reading. We're in Rome, we do as the Romans do... and then when Paris hears about it, we get lambasted for not doing as the Parisians do. Or something like that.

 

[Pure]

pure said: // it's an interesting question: Master is heavily borrowing concepts and ideas[I meant, characters] from Twilight; so much so that Master cannot be sold, unless EL wants a lawsuit from Meyer. (the basic fanfic implicit agreement--no money off my characters, no lawsuit).

EL, however, redrafts Master,90% copying *herself* except that she renames the characters (hence not plagiarism). This redraft is marketed (new fiction, says Random House) as 50 Shades and makes millions.

Surely 50 Shades then is heavily borrowed (in concept & character), and since it's sold, EL can be sued by Meyers for borrowing concepts and characters. I'm not commenting on morality or literary artistry here (though the latter is NOT great), just the law.//
===

Stella replied,

"Borrowing concepts and characters" is not plagiarism.
=====


I did not use the term plagiarism. I am unsure of all of the legal niceties in the US and UK, but copyright infringement is one correct term, among others.

See the case of the banning of a sequel, by Colting, to Salinger's Catcher in the Rye

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...d-catcher-rye-sequel-permanently-banned.shtml

the issue of ownership of characters is complex, depending on the history of the character, the precision of expression a given contributor supplies, and so on. also there are jointly created characters, in comics. these and othe issues are discussed at the following lawyer's website:

http://www.ivanhoffman.com/characters.html

I simply said that Master, like other fanfic, borrows Meyer's concepts and characters, HEAVILY, and if used to make money could result in a lawsuit. Surely you've seen a disclaimer on that issue a hundred times.

Having read a bit of Harry Potter 'slash' fiction, my impression is that the genre so heavily based in Rowling's characters only exists [i.e. legally disseminated] because of its non commercial nature (intent and effect).

So my question was, IF Master is so heavily based in Twilight, how does a renaming of characters in 50 Shades manage to avoid provoking a lawsuit. I believe you used the analogy of filing off serial numbers of a gun (limited use as far as criminal liability). Perhaps Meyer is just too rich now, to bother, but we'll see.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Colting used Salinger's character's names and referred back to the original narrative quite often in that sequel, James does not refer to Meyer's names or characters, or vampires, or werewolves, for that matter... Regardless of her original offering, the one that was published for profit seperates from its inspiration pretty successfully, as far as I can see. Except for the heroine's clumsiness and brunette-ness. But you can't really copyright clumsy brunettes, can you?

But it will be interesting to see if Meyer takes action or not, I agree!

I'm reminded of a little novel that someone offered up in the early days of e-pub, called "The Ballad of Barefoot Robin" about a long-haired pirate... I couldn't bring myself to purchase it...

Having read a bit of Harry Potter 'slash' fiction, my impression is that the genre so heavily based in Rowling's characters only exists [i.e. legally disseminated] because of its non commercial nature (intent and effect).

Exactly so. And every once ina while some dude comes along who sees some way to monetize fan fiction, like those poor benighted wimminz are too dumb to do-- and gets ridden out of fantown on a rail.

(in searching for that link, I ran across this essay, which might convey some of the passion that fanficcers feel for their hobby, and why they do;
http://caras-galadhon.livejournal.com/471788.html

 

[lovecraft68]

So pretty much what this teaches us, is the way to gain popularity and cash in, is not to be original at all.

Instead the new method is to find something successful and get one of those two monitor set ups like I have and have the original on one and rewrite it on the other line by line and make some minor changes.

so Twilight was supernatural(although bubblegum supernatural)

50 shades is now bubblegum bdsm

So will our next genius rewrite it between a human and a martian and take it to the sci fi genre?

 

[Stella_Omega]

So pretty much what this teaches us,...

That's the lesson you take away-- not "us."

 

[lovecraft68]

That's the lesson you take away-- not "us."

I'm certainly not alone. Hell Firebrain is all but ready to hunt this author down.

What this is, is simply the new formula for success. Years ago it was to be different, but lets face it, in music, books, movies, it's pretty much all been done.

Especially evident in Hollywood where the theaters are swamped with sequels and remakes. Even the comic book industry is dedicated to "reinventing" the classic characters rather than try to create new ones.

I'll be a geek and give you the "50 shades" version in Marvel comics form. A few years ago a comic writer named Brian Michael Bendis Came along

Not a bad writer, but not great. He did some indy shit and it was meh.

he then starts a series called Ultimate Spiderman. What this series was, was a different "universe" and a more modern take on the classic early Spidey tales.

What he did was one issue at a time take the original Lee/Ditko stories and put a more modern "spin" on them.

The series blew up and launched an entire "Ultimate" universe. Bendis won a ton of awards, cashed in and got to write anything he wanted after that. He's improved as a writer since, but made his name picking the carcass of the masters who had to do it from scratch.

The new direction is to now take a formula and go A,B,C and milk a specific audience. At least until they start to tail off, then its back to the drawing board.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Who is firebrain and why should we care?

 

[lovecraft68]

Who is firebrain and why should we care?

Okay, Stella, you win.

I am the only author (or aspiring author shall we say) who is annoyed that a blatant copy cat rip off hits it big when thousands upon thousands of us bang our heads against the walls trying to come up with something resembling an original story.

and Firebrain is a lit author who has had some moderate success writing "real" bdsm on Amazon and has a hate on for this thing, that makes me look like a fan of it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Okay, Stella, you win.

I am the only author (or aspiring author shall we say) who is annoyed that a blatant copy cat rip off hits it big when thousands upon thousands of us bang our heads against the walls trying to come up with something resembling an original story.

and Firebrain is a lit author who has had some moderate success writing "real" bdsm on Amazon and has a hate on for this thing, that makes me look like a fan of it.

You're the writer who goes from forum to forum to post on every thread he can find that mentions 'fifty shades'-- not to address the topic of the thread which can be very different depending on the forum, but to tell the world how unfair James's success is.

 

[njlauren]

Interesting thread, I see how things move around a lot.

In terms of 50 shades of Gray, I think everyone misses the point with it, everyone is so big on the titilation factor they miss something fundamental, this isn't really a BD/SM story.....it in the end, like Twilight that inspired it, is a story of redemption, where someone who is so hurt learns how to heal. Christian is into BD/SM because he is fucked up, he has no tools to handle emotional relationships, has real issues with simply things like touch, and his D/s, whatever you want to call it, is his only way of relating (which is quite fucked up......if the only way someone can relate is through BD/SM or whatever, I can't call it anything but fucked up). They miss the essential idea of love triumphing and such, not exactly unknown in fantasy stories. I thought the books were decently written, they aren't great literature and as BD/SM didn't do much for me, but that wasn't the point.

As far as this being plagiarism or people getting upset, that is ridiculous. The themes in Twilight are not original, and Shakespeare could be charged with plagiarism for Romeo and Juliet (or the guy who did the book for "West Side Story", Arthur Laurents) since they are based on earlier stories....and so forth. There story is quite different then twilight, if the underlying theme shares similarity, but that is because things tend to go into familiar patterns *shrug*. I suspect a lot of that is jealousy, people who feel they write better and how come this woman is now a millionaire, but I hear that all the time, and it is mostly jealousy. There is a lot of schlock out there that sells a lot of books, always has been, there are books that sold 10's of millions of copies that I went "huh?", couldn't figure it out (and when it comes to many classics, especially romantic tripe like the Bronte sisters wrote, I agree with Mark Twain, they are books you think you should read but don't want to.... People jumped all over JK Rowling, but goess what, love it or hate it, she hit a nerve, people liked it.....everyone thinks they wrote better then X, hopefully as an author you better have that kind of ego because writing isn't easy....


As far as the discussion about BD/SM and 'the old days", I was fortunate to know a lot of people who were part of that 'generation', the guys who founded Eulenspiegal in NYC in the early 70's, others with Black Rose, and other groups, and yes we owe them a debt..but the funny part is, the people I am talking about also thought those of that generation who put on all this pretense that people should kiss their asses, do exactly what they did, etc, were just fluffing their own egos. The whole hierarchy of training in groups, the idea that somehow there were x levels of submission, or formalized positions a slave should be trained to adopt, etc, are bizarre to me. It is one thing to talk about learning to do things safely, groups like Eulenspiegel, GMSMA, Black Rose and the like spend a lot of time on offering classes in things like negotiating scenes, to more difficult things like electrical play and edge play and that is correct, the point is to save people from getting hurt, which unfortunately did happen and still does when people try this stuff without knowing. I appreciate what people in the scene did back then and how hard it was, but it also doesn't give them any special right to tell others they are 'more authentic' or 'this is the only way to do things', please, that is trying to be royalty.

It isn't just the old guard, there are well off types who if you aren't wearing thousands of dollars in leather fetish gear you aren't real, of if you don't have the 'right toys' or don't play in a certain way, you aren't 'authentic'. In the early days of the net, back on the usenet news groups, I remember the d/s purists declaiming anything less then a 'real' tpe relationship, it partly made me want to throw up and partly to laugh..... the point about the whole scene should be that who and what someone is is up to them...you might be a dominant who thinks a sub should have to ask permission to go to the bathroom, my domme would get pissed if I bothered her with that kind of thing......you may want a slave who signs away all their money and such to you, you control everything, and that is cool, others do it where the power is shifted but the sub/slave is still a person......it is weird that in the bd/sm world (and trans world, and gay and lesbian space) where identity politics becomes more important then simply sharing what we do, and they end up sounding like a PTA meeting or the Rotary club when the infighting and stupid petty crap start..... we pulled back (among other reasons) from public play because in many cases, some a-holes who weren't old guard but acted like some of that type do, did things like interrupt a scene between myself and my domme, not for safety reasons (this wasn't a DM), but came over and literally grabbed a paddle out of my dome's hands and told her "that isn't the proper way to do it" and attempted to use it on me..little did they know my nice domme has a tough side, and they came close to getting it shoved you know where.....it is an idea of superiority; that same woman after the scene was done could have come to my domme and said "I watched you play, and I have some ideas for you I found work" and my domme would have been thrilled to learn; but the way the person did it, give me a break......


As far as BD/SM becoming trendy, it did a long time ago. I remember when Madusa aka Madonna came out with her Sex book and all these Madonna wanna bees and such started showing up at S/M clubs and stuff, totally clueless, it was a pain in the ass, and there was this big deal made back then..thing is, though, when it becomes trendy like that it tends to die out, leaving behind those who care. The wanna bees don't have the attention span or the imagination it takes to be into BD/SM and it tends to die off

 

[lovetoread]

If you can get past the horrible writing, editing, and ellipses, what I got out of the book was that bdsm was on one hand something bad that needed to be overcome, yet at the same time, used to spice up the so-so sex scenes.

I don't really care that it started out as a fanfic, what bothers me is the fact she used the fanficdom "fans" to help her write, edit it somewhat, and market it, then denies it's the same book as MOTU, when 89% of it is the same. I've read both, and there is no doubt in my mind.

As to the fact it's based off of the other books?

Ethically, I think it's wrong, but I don't think it's legally wrong.

 

[njlauren]

I don't think the theme of the book is that BD/SM is bad, I think it is pointing out that the Christian Gray character is messed up in that he can only have a relationship through a bd/sm focus as he does. In his case BD/SM acts as a crutch to allow him to function at all sexually and it isn't normal, and the point of the story is him actually learning to love and trust without bd/sm. And yes, I have met people who are roughly analogous to Christian Gray, sub and dominant, in the scene, and like him I felt it was a crutch, it literally was all they had.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Very true, njlauren.

it's a phenomenon that has beenremarked on in many a BDSM story--Pat Califia, back in the nineties, for example, although I can't remember which story in particular. And lots of fanfic writers pick up on it in the fandoms that can encompass BDSM.

 

[sweepthefloor]

I am not a literary critic, but let’s face the reality: the book is an easy read and it is infecting women everywhere.

I did not read this thread before purchasing the book. A girl I know said to me with a shameful whisper: You’ve got to read this book and let me know if you think I am normal for being in love with this character Christian Grey. I can’t believe I am even admitting this. Is there something wrong with me? I am not even going to tell you what it is about. Just read it and get back to me.

Ahahahahaha!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am not a literary critic, but let’s face the reality: the book is an easy read and it is infecting women everywhere.

I did not read this thread before purchasing the book. A girl I know said to me with a shameful whisper: You’ve got to read this book and let me know if you think I am normal for being in love with this character Christian Grey. I can’t believe I am even admitting this. Is there something wrong with me? I am not even going to tell you what it is about. Just read it and get back to me.

Ahahahahaha!

Tell her that since Christian Grey's character was written to be, exactly, perfectly, lovable with adorable faults and charms, and nothing wrong about him that can't be fixed, ANNND the Bandaid™ of Money applied overall-- yes, it's normal to be in love with the character.

Wishful thinking is normal.

 

[sweepthefloor]

Tell her that since Christian Grey's character was written to be, exactly, perfectly, lovable with adorable faults and charms, and nothing wrong about him that can't be fixed, ANNND the Bandaid™ of Money applied overall-- yes, it's normal to be in love with the character.

Wishful thinking is normal.

Also his persistence right? I am into the second book of this romance trilogy and the struggle is getting boring, and repetitive.

 

[lovecraft68]

Tell her that since Christian Grey's character was written to be, exactly, perfectly, lovable with adorable faults and charms, and nothing wrong about him that can't be fixed, ANNND the Bandaid™ of Money applied overall-- yes, it's normal to be in love with the character.

Wishful thinking is normal.

This wishful thinking infects women on a daily basis. We all know someone or several someones who are decent women and they are spending their time trying to "save" some loser.

In romance it's a familiar plot bunny and can be romantic and fun. In reality the woman usually gets hurt and "burned"

Band aids are a thing of fiction, people broken badly by life are never 100% and that baggage will always need to be dealt with.

Gray's character was as broken as..... in the family I was raised in he would be the spoiled child and a big time pussy.

He was vanilla all the way. But again excellent manipulating of the genre.

As I said in another thread Shades is not a novel but a product, contrived and set to a base formula pulling in aspects that affect a particular demographic.

as a book. its' Meh, as a product its brilliant.

 

[JennX]

I have figured out that this book is a combination of Pretty Woman and what every woman over 25 secretly wanted Twilight to be!!! Ha!!

 

[sweepthefloor]

After reading the second book of this trilogy I have concluded that it is nauseating. My brain cells are very angry with me right now for wasting them. The author delivered a low blow on the last page of the second book, suddenly bringing up a mysterious shady character hell bent on destroying the lovers.

I was like: Seriously? Ew.

 

[DVS]

I don't think my post is going to be in line with the current discussions in this thread, but I just wanted to speak my mind, then get out and let those discussions continue. I'm not much for reading this type of story. But then, I'm a man. It seems like too much syrup to me.

The story reeks of romance novel style with kinky sex scenes added like spicy seasonings are added to food. Writing romance novels is a style and many women seem to relish that style. And romance novels are all pretty much the same plot, but with different names, different settings. It's a bit like the same turkey dinner with different side dishes. It's a formula. Even the pictures on the book covers can be very similar. Fabio surely made some money from those caricatures.

My rant is mostly based on what I saw on the 20/20 interview with the author. She said was inspired when she read 'Twilight' and almost admitted on camera that she borrowed a large part of that story. And she said a lot of the sex scenes are from her imagination. She even asked her husband to help her act out some of them, to see if they would work. And from what I got from that is that her husband isn't into kinky sex. All of that sounds like a romance novel style with the kinky sex added for spice, like I said above.

The author said Christian is her fantasy lover. And from what it seems, she's not alone. But like many in the vanilla media, 20/20 commented slightly about the BDSM aspect of the story, but said it wasn't BDSM. They lightly touched on what BDSM "is" and then they said, "this story is just spanking and bondage". This is what I hate about the vanilla media. They don't investigate things well enough, or don't seem to care to, because their audience won't know they didn't. Spanking and bondage are both part of BDSM, but they seemed to take it too far, calling BDSM a much darker thing. I would have been happy, if they had just said BDSM is a vast area of individual tastes, but they didn't.

Shit, they even showed some kind of class that women were taking to introduce them to bondage and spanking and I thought that was very strange to see that. I just imagined that these ladies had just read the story and wanted to experience what they had read. I thought BDSM was more known to the outside world than this. These women have to go to a class for it? Maybe if the mainstream media were better with explaining things, BDSM would be a bit more accessible to the vanilla crowd.

I guess I'm not mainstream enough as a writer to even want to write this sort of story. I want my story to be real without the fluff, but it seems that the fluff is what sells. There's that romance novel style again. And while I might want to meet a few of these ladies for some one on one BDSM education, I don't think they could keep my interest for long. Or would that be the other way around?

OK, sorry for the intrusion. You can all continue with your discussions now.

 

[Kurokami]

I'll just leave this here...

 

[Loverskitten]

I'll just leave this here...

Hahahahahaha

 

[mojo23]

Fifty is not the end all be all

Fifty shades made it on the Dr. Oz show today!!! The whole audience read the book and then they discussed it. Dr. Oz asked if this was the new sexual awaking of American woman and why is this good for women's sexual health.*

I read the book because I like BDSM romance novels and saw this come on IBooks so I downloaded and read it. It was okay then I saw this post and all the hype surrounding this book and I couldn't believe it. There are so many other books that are so much better than this one.*

Now some women in the audience is talking about how the behavior of the male character is typical of a domestic violence please this is not the spot light the BDSM community needs!!! Also the panel did not really understand the D/s power exchange as being something that is indeed equal but I guess that what mainstream gets when looking in through the window.*

But I do give it to Dr. Oz credit for having a discussion about it the book, sex, and how couple can spice up their sex life.*

It was also a topic on Chelsea Lately and all they could talk about is all the kinky stuff and how weird it was. Argggg!!!!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant *

 

[o_so_wet]

I just downloaded it to my kindle...and now I'm wondering if it's gonna be worth the money

 

[mojo23]

I just downloaded it to my kindle...and now I'm wondering if it's gonna be worth the money

Go ahead and read it. It was a good romance and easy read but like I said it was just the hype the book was getting when I think there are better BDSM novels out there.

Also I am no book critic