He's A Hero.

[starrkers]

Hear hear, Seacat. That was my overriding amazement. Not only were the emergency teams untrained, but there was no equipment.
Hell, a coil of rope's a mighty handy thing. Can negate the need to get into the water in the first place (which incidentally I would never do - I'm not a strong enough swimmer, but I can throw a rope and haul)

 

[sr71plt]

Hear hear, Seacat. That was my overriding amazement. Not only were the emergency teams untrained, but there was no equipment.
Hell, a coil of rope's a mighty handy thing. Can negate the need to get into the water in the first place (which incidentally I would never do - I'm not a strong enough swimmer, but I can throw a rope and haul)

Interesting, in that I've seen a related discussion just now over on the Feedback page and also in that earlier today I had a discussion on differences in EMT systems with an Australian friend. The friend indicated that fire and rescue services in Australia are well-paid professions (I don't know if this is really true--I was making a comparison of how "off" we are in the States for paying our pro football players $3 million a year and our first responders just about nothing and the friend in Australia said their first responders where paid well and were well trained). First responders in the States are generally expected to be largely composed of volunteers who are given whatever training and equipment that local governments can beat out of people resenting paying for this and busy trying to avoid paying their taxes altogether.

I'll join those who are saying here that it's too harsh to condemn (or sue/prosecute) first responders in the States who don't go beyond their training and conditions of their own--or their colleagues'--safety in such dire straits (especially when the criticizing is done by people sitting in front of their computer in their den and chatting on an Internet chat board rather than putting in their shift down at the fire house). Life isn't the movies.

The usual scenario here is that a couple of good old boys have stolen a car, gotten drunk as skunks, and driven themselves into a nearby lake. And my daugher, who is doing the best she can with minimal training and no salary, trained as a beginner fire fighter and having just recently passed enough EMT courses to be thrown in the breach on a short-handed holiday shift (and who never took a water lifesaving course in her life) has been the first one to show up--having been rousted out of bed in the middle of the night. And some armchair hero posters here want to criticize her or sue her because she doesn't jump into the lake to drown herself before she can get to some drunk 60 pounds heavier than her who is thrashing away out there (and then the other EMT with her drowns as well trying to save her)? I don't think so.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Acccording to the article, this is not that unusual a situation. You would think that responders' vehicles would carry ropes and/or flotation devices of some kind.

 

[sr71plt]

Acccording to the article, this is not that unusual a situation. You would think that responders' vehicles would carry ropes and/or flotation devices of some kind.

Well, they do or they don't. According to the article they didn't, but now they plan to add them.

But in the meantime let's string up on the nearest oak those offending first responders who didn't have the equipment when they showed up to the actual situation, shall we?

Wouda, shouda, coulda (favorite words of armchair heros).

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, they do or they don't. According to the article they didn't, but now they plan to add them.

But in the meantime let's string up on the nearest oak those offending first responders who didn't have the equipment when they showed up to the actual situation, shall we?

Wouda, shouda, coulda (favorite words of armchair heros).

Being untrained and unequipped, I wouldn't have done anything either.

ETA: If I am going to criticize anybody, it would be the people who run these units for not providing the proper equipment.

 

[angela146]

Before anyone calls the EMS guy a coward, try this exercise. It's *one* of the prerequisites for a Red Cross lifesaving course:

[Make sure you have a trained lifeguard on hand to save your butt in case you fail].

Exercise 1: Go to a standard Olympic sized swimming pool (25 meters wide), take a 10 pound dumbbell with you. Toss the dumbbell to the bottom of the deep end on one side (7-10 feet down). Then walk to the other side of the deep end and jump in. Swim to the dumbbell (20 meters away, 10 feet down), retrieve it and swim back to the other side (taking the dumbbell with you).

When you've accomplished this task, come back and tell us how easy it was.

But remember, we aren't talking about 20 yards in clear water to retrieve a 10 pound weight in the daytime in a well-lighted swimming pool. We're talking about a dark lake at night at an unknown distance with unknown creatures in the water and a 150 (if average sized) person to schlep back with you.

So, to be fair, try this exercise:

[Make sure you have a trained lifeguard on hand to save your butt in case you fail].

Exercise 2: Same pool, but this time at night. Take three fifty-pound sacks of potatoes, tie them together, throw them into the deep end of the pool. Add a truckload of kelp to simulate real lake conditions. Turn all of the lights off except the one by the door, so it's almost pitch-black. Now, in the dark, start at the shallow end of the pool, go get the 150 lbs. of potatoes from the deep end and bring them back to the shallow end.

Then tell us how much of a coward that guy was.

BTW: that still doesn't account for the alligators.

A couple more things:

1. Previous posters made the point that first responders in the USA are often volunteers. Let me make that point a little bit clearer:
   
   In small towns and rural areas, firefighters and EMTs are volunteers who have other jobs. When the fire alarm rings in Smalltown Idaho, the storekeeper, plumber, baker and a couple of waiters drop what they are doing and drive to the firehouse (or directly to the scene) and become firefighters (or EMTs or whatever).
   
   In cities, (with population greater than about 25,000) it's a whole different thing: firefighters don't have "day jobs". They are usually full-time professionals.
2. Open-water rescue (i.e. swimming out to save someone) is difficult. It requires *expert* long-distance swimming skills along with special training.
   
   If you think you can do it, go take a life-saving course (http://www.redcross-cmd.org/Chapter/lifeguard.html). It's a lot harder than most people think.
3. If we require every paramedic, EMT, EMS worker or whatever to be certified in water rescue, we will exclude a lot of people who could have been very good at dealing with medical emergencies but who are not capable of doing water rescue.
   
   In a town of 1,000 people, there might only be fifty or so who would be able to complete the full training as paramedics. There might be another fifty who, with proper training, could qualify as open-water rescuers. Finding people who can do both would be a real challenge. Those are two very different sets of skills.
4. The general procedure for water rescue is "Reach, Throw, Row and Go" in that order. If you are ever in this situation and don't have the necessary training, do something that might actually help: call someone who has a boat. While you are waiting for them to arrive, look around for anything that floats and get it into the water near the victim for them to hang on to.
   
   Go bang on the front-doors of houses and find someone with a 100 foot rope plus something big made of Styrofoam. Tie the rope to the Styrofoam thingy and throw it out to the victim. (Make sure to hold onto the other end of the rope).
   
   That may be the only useful thing you can do.

 

[starrkers]

Angela, the only ting I can thind you forgot in your posst was to make sure you were wearing your clothes when you did your rescue exercises.

My two sons had an exercise in the their school learn to swim course last month - one day they had to take long pants and a long sleeved shirt with them - the got dressed, then jumped in the pool and attempted to swim. Under strict supervision and in the shallow end. This was to give them some clue of how difficult it can to swim if unexpectedly caught in the drink. As much as anything it helps teach against the jump in at all costs to save someone mentality.

 

[oggbashan]

I was extensively trained in the 1960s for many unlikely scenarios e.g. escaping, fully dressed, from an upside down helicopter 60 feet under water in darkness. Despite the presence of trained instructors with scuba gear, that was seriously scary.

My first life-saving training started about age 10 with retrieving a brick from the deep end of a swimming pool while wearing shorts and a T-shirt. I found that easy since I had been teasing octopus in the open sea at much greater depths than that.

Much later I tried to retrieve a weighted bag from the sea bottom under ten-foot high surf. It took two of us working together to succeed and if the bag had been a person it would have been a fatality.

Now, despite my training, I would be very reluctant to enter water to effect a rescue because I do not have the fitness or strength that I had in my teens or twenties. The North Sea can be very cold and even grasping a rope after only a few minutes in the water can be impossible and the older you are, the less likely you are to be able to do anything useful. The shock of entering cold water can be enough to precipate a heart attack - not recommended for rescuers.

Reach, throw, row - but first summon help...

Summoning help in a calm and collected manner is important. Knowing the right number to dial, which service to ask for, describing the situation and its location accurately - these are essential but many callers don't appreciate that every word counts, nor that the emergency operator may not have your local knowledge. How to telephone for help is taught in our local schools and practised by Scouts and Guides. I wish it were taught everywhere.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ANGELA

I got the same lessons when I was a fireman. It's excellent advice....until you have to use it. Cops and medics and firemen ignore the rule all the time, especially when the victim is a child.

The problem is someone will die if you fail to act. Death is certain. If you make an effort to help them maybe they wont die.

James Q. Wilson explores the issue in his book MORAL SENSE. Most people wont assist a drowning swimmer. Most people wont assist a victim of a criminal assault. I've seen cops drive past serious wrecks, before fire or medics arrive.

Everyone has to confront the situation and make a choice.

 

[sr71plt]

ANGELA

I got the same lessons when I was a fireman. It's excellent advice....until you have to use it. Cops and medics and firemen ignore the rule all the time, especially when the victim is a child.

The problem is someone will die if you fail to act. Death is certain. If you make an effort to help them maybe they wont die.

James Q. Wilson explores the issue in his book MORAL SENSE. Most people wont assist a drowning swimmer. Most people wont assist a victim of a criminal assault. I've seen cops drive past serious wrecks, before fire or medics arrive.

Everyone has to confront the situation and make a choice.

the real problem is that the probability is that not only will they die but you will too and so will the next one who tries to help you.

More armchair heroics. Easy to do in an Internet chat room.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yep. Some people claim to be CIA spy pilots.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep. Some people claim to be CIA spy pilots.

former CIA spy pilot, who can afford to spend time on the Internet now (and who isn't engaging in armchair heroics anyway).

But it's fine for me to be taken only on the basis of the storywriting I do on this storywriting site. I'd take you on that basis too, James, if you actually contributed any stories to this story writing site rather than just yakking in sour tones about anything and everything but what this Web site is all about. Wonder what you are even doing in the "author's hangout" portion of this forum, as you aren't even a current Lit. author. I recommend the General Discussion board to you and your topics.

 

[BlackShanglan]

ANGELA

I got the same lessons when I was a fireman. It's excellent advice....until you have to use it. Cops and medics and firemen ignore the rule all the time, especially when the victim is a child.

The problem is someone will die if you fail to act. Death is certain. If you make an effort to help them maybe they wont die.

James Q. Wilson explores the issue in his book MORAL SENSE. Most people wont assist a drowning swimmer. Most people wont assist a victim of a criminal assault. I've seen cops drive past serious wrecks, before fire or medics arrive.

Everyone has to confront the situation and make a choice.

Yes, everyone has to make decisions. I notice that the first responders in this situation did make a decision. They observed that no one present had the training or equipment necessary to save the man in the water, and they did the only other thing they could do: stop other people from dying while trying to get to him.

Mr. Wilson may choose to regard this situation as a purely moral choice, but I don't agree with him. No amount of moral strength will allow someone to do that which is not physically possible - and no information in the article you linked to tells us whether the rescue was physically possible or not. Notably absent from it, for instance, is any mention of whether the first responders could even swim. And why have you transferred all moral responsibility to them, anyway? Because they came in a vehicle with a shiny light on it?

We're not told, either, what other steps were being taken. Were they looking around for rope or something to throw? Were they calling frantically for a unit with a boat or breathing gear? We don't know, and so we don't actually know their decisions. We only know a single one that they didn't make. I think it's reasonable to theorize, however, that they probably weren't leaning against their cars drinking coffee and shrugging insouciantly. I imagine that none of them were eager to live the rest of their lives with the memory of watching helplessly as a man drowned. But moral sense or no moral sense, there are times when there is nothing one can do that won't make a situation worse - and neither you nor I has enough information to have any opinion on what options these people had.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Exercise 2: Same pool, but this time at night. Take three fifty-pound sacks of potatoes, tie them together, throw them into the deep end of the pool. Add a truckload of kelp to simulate real lake conditions. Turn all of the lights off except the one by the door, so it's almost pitch-black. Now, in the dark, start at the shallow end of the pool, go get the 150 lbs. of potatoes from the deep end and bring them back to the shallow end.

Then tell us how much of a coward that guy was.

Then animate the sacks and have them grab you around the neck and upper body in a death grip while crushing themselves into your face.

 

[Weird Harold]

Then animate the sacks and have them grab you around the neck and upper body in a death grip while crushing themselves into your face.

Or send the High School footbll team's starting fullback out fifty yards into a lake and tellhim to simulate panic and resist being rescued. (He outweighed me by about 70 pounds of muscle, but I did pass my fnal test for a livesaving badge. )

During each of the three Red Cross Lifesaving courses I took in the mid to late 60's I had to jump from a high place into the water fully clothed -- including shoes -- and disrobe while treading water. That was NOT part of the rescuing others, it was part of the portion of the classes now known as "Drown-proofing" and often given as a separate course.

They won' get much credit for it from armchair heroes like JBJ, but I, for one, applaud the responders for knowing their limits and not adding to the tragedy; it's often harder NOT toact than it is to rush in without knowing what you're doing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BLACKIE & HAROLD

Hopefully neither of you will ever need a hero.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.medalofhonor.com/JoeMJackson.htm

Joe was in my unit. He could have left the guys behind.

 

[Weird Harold]

BLACKIE & HAROLD

Hopefully neither of you will ever need a hero.

You have the wrong end of the horse as your avater.

 

[SeaCat]

When I got my water rescue training from my department it was rough. To even be considered you had to be able to show you could swim. The test was to swim across a local lake. That lake happened to be 1/4 mile across and 80 feet deep. (What we call a Kettle Pond.) You wore a bathing suit and nothing else. On the day I took this test the water had warmed up to maybe 60 degrees.

My final exam, like the rest of the people in the class was to "rescue" an instructor flailing in the water 50 yards out on an ocean beach. We were wearing 7mm wetsuits and carried only a tube float. Oh and the victim was instructed to fight us as a normal victim was.

When my group took the test the seas were running about 4-5 feet. By the time I had subdued the "victim" I had received an elbow to the side of the face and a foot to the gut. (This even though I had approached from behind.)

We were the only department on the cape to have this kind of training. (We won't get into the training I went through to get onto the crew of the rescue boat.)

Cat

 

[BlackShanglan]

BLACKIE & HAROLD

Hopefully neither of you will ever need a hero.

Ah, I see the difficulty. You've confused your noun. The word you're looking for is "fool," with the modifier "suicidal" in front of it. Interestingly, it's quite uncommon for people to need one of those. If, on the other hand, I happen to need someone trained in water rescue, I hope that I find one of them and not someone incapable of helping me but determined to add to the death toll in order to show pluck.

But, of course, you're an armchair hero, and the rest of us are mere armchair cowards. I could not possibly ever have been in the position to render aid in a dangerous emergency, nor taken action in any direct and immediate fashion. It's quite unthinkable that I might have experienced firsthand how easy it is to be drowned by a panicking swimmer and wish not to see others die that way, yet possess the moral sense to intervene in an emergency at risk to myself. If I had any real courage, I'd be posting to an Internet bulletin board to deride people I've never met in a position I know nothing about for their failure to exercise skills they don't possess.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BLACKIE & HAROLD

I have no idea if youre a hero or a coward. I mean, how can I know it when I dont know you?

I think people start flinging turds when they run out of argument. It's the international symbol for "I got nuthin else but name-calling to offer."

But real heroes do exist in the world, and the asses they save are pretty happy that these people didnt take the attitude: "NOT MY JOB, MAN!"

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think people start flinging turds when they run out of argument. It's the international symbol for "I got nuthin else but name-calling to offer."

Precisely. And that's what you've been doing the entire thread. You've been berating people about whom you know absolutely nothing, not even - and I hate to be repetitious to the point of pedantry on this topic, but it really seems germane to the example - whether they actually knew how to swim.

Lacking any idea of what really happened, you've proceeded to lament the loss of the Great American Hero and to condemn the paramedics for not living up to that model, conveniently ignoring the fact that you have no idea if they were capable of effecting the rescue that you believe, in the utter absence of any supporting evidence, to have required nothing but willingness. The protests of every person with any training in water rescue have meant nothing to you because you never had an informed point to make. More information is meaningless to you; you didn't trouble yourself with information to start with, and so you're happy to soldier on bewailing the death of heroism without it.

 

[Weird Harold]

BLACKIE & HAROLD

I have no idea if youre a hero or a coward. I mean, how can I know it when I dont know you?

I think people start flinging turds when they run out of argument. It's the international symbol for "I got nuthin else but name-calling to offer."

Yet you are more than willing to fling turds at someone based on the barest of newspaper reports that reveal less about him than Blackshanglan, Oggs and I have revealed about ourselves and about the well-known dangers of "going the extra mile" without any clue of how to do it successfully.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BLACKIE, HAROLD

I dont know, but I suspect both of you are embarrassed about yourselves. I dont get your steam about the medics. I also suspect both of you would get in line as recipients of heroism....while denying it to people you might be able to save.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It's at moments like this that one feels just a faint pang of regret for being raised to have a decent modesty and reserve about one's own actions. It limits one to saying simply that you are as wrong as it is possible for you to be.

One could, of course, feel embarassment and attempt to excuse the paramedics out of the knowledge that one would quail from the task oneself. On the other hand, one might instead feel the anger of someone who has done it and must now watch the sniping second-guessing of someone who has no idea what's involved. One might, in that circumstance, be moved to defend the paramedics from the ill-informed ranting of someone who persists in questioning their characters while knowing nothing of their resources and abilities.