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Is Japan Gonna Die?

squarejohn said:
Japan won't die. They are a tough, well organized people. They survived the obliteration by atomic bombs of two of their major cities, and the firebombing of other cities. Earthquakes and typhoons don't slow them down very much. They will make short work of this business with nuclear reactors going haywire, and just keep on truckin.
Click to expand...

OK, I was going to say that, now I don't have to. I mean, they survived two of their cities being nuked ON PURPOSE. However, if those plants all have to be entombed like Chernobyl it's going to play hell with their economy. Maybe THE economy, at that.
 
A plea for a return to science...
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/20/a-plea-for-a-return-to-science-on-the-nuclear-power-issue/


Fukushima
By Dr Peter Heller
http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/physics/people/faculty/heller.html
Professor of Physics, Emeritus
Brandeis University
Ph.D., Harvard University, 1963



There’s no place on earth I would rather be right now than at Fukushima – right in the atomic power plant, at the centre of the event. I say this because I am a physicist and there is no other place that could be more exciting and interesting for a physicist. The same goes for many, if not most physicists and engineers, on the planet.

Already at a young age I knew one day I would study physics. As a boy, I received a telescope for Christmas, and from that point on my view was fixed on the night sky; gazing at star clusters, nebula and galaxies was my favourite preoccupation. It was only later that I learned that these lights and the twinkling in eyepiece were actually the expressions of a chaotic and violent force of nature – the direct conversion of matter into energy during the fusion of an atomic nucleus.


My curiosity carried me, as if on a high, through 10 semesters of study and subsequent graduation. It was a time of discovery that involved the tedious task of understanding. At times I felt exasperation and self doubt with respect to the sheer complexity and breadth of what there was to learn. Yet, there were times of joy whenever the fog lifted and the clarity and beauty of physical descriptions of natural phenomena moved in its place. It was a time that, unfortunately, passed all too quickly and is now some years in the past.

The great minds that accompanied me through my studies were Planck, Sommerfeld, Bohr, Einstein, Heisenberg, and a host of others who, for us physicists, are still very much alive today. They are great thinkers who contributed to unravelling the puzzles of nature and the forces which keep the world together through the most minute structures. I devoured the stories of Otto Hahn and Lise Meitner, of Enrico Fermi and Edward Teller – to name a few – and on how they created completely new technologies from theoretical concepts, how the energy stored in the nucleus of an atom could be used for the good of man and how it became possible in a single process to tap into this source of affordable, clean and plentiful energy on a large scale as never seen by man. Electricity illuminates our world, drives our machines, allow us to communicate over great distances, thus making our lives easier and more comfortable. It is a source of energy that staves off poverty and enables prosperity.

Electricity: manufactured by splitting atomic nuclei with neutrons, gained through the direct conversion of mass into energy. It is the principle by which (via the reverse process of fusion) the stars twinkle in the night sky, a principle by which our sun enables life on our planet.

As a physicist it fills me with great joy and pride to see how man is able to rouse this force of nature at the most minute structural level, then amplify, control, and use it for our benefit. As a physicist I have the fundamental understanding of the processes – I can imagine them and describe them. As a physicist I have neither fear of an atomic power plant nor of radioactivity. Ultimately I know that it is a natural phenomenon that is always around us, one we can never escape – and one that we never need to escape. And I know the first as a symbol of man’s capability to steer the forces of nature. As a physicist I have no fear of what nature has to offer. Rather I have respect. And this respect beckons us to seize the chances like those offered by neutrons, which can split nuclei and thus convert matter into energy. Anything else would be ignorance and cowardice.

Dark times in history

There were times in history when ignorance and cowardice overshadowed human life. It was a time when our ancestors were forced to lead a life filled with superstition and fear because it was forbidden to use creativity and fantasy. Religious dogma, like the earth being the centre of the universe, or creationism, forbade people to question. The forbiddance of opening a human body and examining it prevented questions from being answered. Today these medieval rules appear backwards and close-minded. We simply cannot imagine this way of thinking could have any acceptance.

But over the recent days I have grown concerned that we are headed again for such dark times. Hysterical and sensationalist media reporting, paired with a remarkably stark display of ignorance of technical and scientific interrelations, and the attempt by a vast majority of journalists to fan the public’s angst and opposition to nuclear energy – pure witch-burning disguised as modernity.

Freedom of research

So it fills me with sadness and anger on how the work of the above mentioned giants of physics is now being dragged through the mud, how the greatest scientific discoveries of the 20th century are being redefined and criminalized. The current debate in Germany is also a debate on freedom of research. The stigmatization and ostracism of nuclear energy, the demand for an immediate stop of its use, is also the demand for the end of its research and development. No job possibilities also means no students, which means no faculty, which then means the end of the growth of our knowledge. Stopping nuclear energy is nothing less than rejecting the legacy of Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr and all others. It is tantamount to scrapping it, labelling it as dangerous – all in a fit of ignorance. And just as creationists attempt to ban the theory of evolution from the school books, it almost seems as if every factual and neutral explanation in Germany is now in the process of being deleted.

The media suggests a nuclear catastrophe, a mega-meltdown, and that the apocalypse has already begun. It is almost as if the 10,000 deaths in Japan were actually victims of nuclear energy, and not the earthquake or the tsunami. Here again one has to remind us that Fukushima was first hit by an unimaginable 9.0 earthquake and then by a massive 10-meter wave of water just an hour later. As a result, the facility no longer found itself in a highly technological area, but surrounded by a desert of rubble. All around the power plant the infrastructure, residential areas, traffic routes, energy and communication networks are simply no longer there. They were wiped out. Yet, after an entire week, the apocalypse still has not come to pass. Only relatively small amounts of radioactive materials have leaked out and have had only a local impact. If one considers the pure facts exclusively, i.e. only the things we really know, then it exposes the unfounded interpretations of scientific illiterates in the media. One can only arrive to one conclusion: This sorrowful state will remain so.

In truth, this does not show that the ideologically motivated, fear-laden admonitions and warnings were correct. Fukushima illustrates that we are indeed able to control atomic energy. Fukushima shows that we can master it even when natural disasters beyond planning befall us. Still, at Fukushima the conflict between human creativity/competence continues to clamour against the bond energy in atomic nuclei. It’s a struggle that that shows what human intelligence, knowledge gained, passion, boldness, respect, and capability to learn allow us to do. Personally this does not fill me with apprehension, but with hope. Man can meet this challenge not only because he has to, but most of all because he wants to.

Even though I have not practiced physics for some time now, I will never be anything other than a scientist and researcher, and there would be no other place I would rather be than on site at Fukushima. There is no other place at the moment where so much can be learned about atomic energy, which keeps our world together deep inside, and the technical possibilities to benefit from it. Do we have the courage to learn? Do we accept – with respect and confidence – the opportunities we are confronted with? Fukushima will show us possibilities on how to use the direct conversion of matter into energy in a better and safer way, something that Einstein and others could have only dreamed of.

I am a physicist. My wish is to live in a world that is willing to learn and to improve whatever is good. I would only like to live in a world where great strides in physics are viewed with fascination, pride, and hope because they show us the way to a better future. I would only like to live in a world that has the courage for a better world. Any other world for me is unacceptable. Never. That’s why I am going to fight for this world, without ever relenting.
————————————————–

Translated from the German, with the permission of Peter Heller, by Bernd Felsche and Pierre Gosselin. Original text appeared here: http://www.science-skeptical.de/blog/fukushima/004149/
Click to expand...
 
sr71plt said:
Ah, Trysail's back to his old copyright violation habits.
Click to expand...

This article quoted by Trysail can be found in full in a number of the UK newspapers this morning. I find Trysail's tendency to quote long articles without much opinion from himself, tedious but in this case it is entirely a fair use excerpt.

You on the other hand SR71plt always take a farcically narrow and wrong interpretation of fair use. This seems to be driven by your desire to bait other posters, trysail in particular, who has in the past made the mistake of rising to your provocation.

Make no mistake SR71plt you are clearly a writer of some modest ability but more clearly you are a mean minded, spiteful little shit, know all and bully.

And I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction...except from yourself of course.:D
 
colddiesel said:
This article quoted by Trysail can be found in full in a number of the UK newspapers this morning. I find Trysail's tendency to quote long articles without much opinion from himself, tedious but in this case it is entirely a fair use excerpt.

You on the other hand SR71plt always take a farcically narrow and wrong interpretation of fair use. This seems to be driven by your desire to bait other posters, trysail in particular, who has in the past made the mistake of rising to your provocation.

Make no mistake SR71plt you are clearly a writer of some modest ability but more clearly you are a mean minded, spiteful little shit, know all and bully.

And I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction...except from yourself of course.:D
Click to expand...


Well, aren't you all sweetness and light?

What does appearing in newspapers have to do with copyright violation? Those newspapers paid for the right to reproduce it. And you obviously have no understanding at all of the U.S. Fair Use concept.

All of this aside, this violates a Literotica Forum rule. (Look it up.)

If you were a professional writer you would understand the abhorence of what Trysail does on a writer's discussion board.
 


ROTFLMFAO

It's not copyrighted material dummy. For once, get your facts straight. Your main problem is that you're an idiot.

You've done it again:
"Ready, fire, aim."




A plea for a return to science...
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/20/a-plea-for-a-return-to-science-on-the-nuclear-power-issue/


Fukushima
By Dr Peter Heller
http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/physics/people/faculty/heller.html
Professor of Physics, Emeritus
Brandeis University
Ph.D., Harvard University, 1963



There’s no place on earth I would rather be right now than at Fukushima – right in the atomic power plant, at the centre of the event. I say this because I am a physicist and there is no other place that could be more exciting and interesting for a physicist. The same goes for many, if not most physicists and engineers, on the planet.

Already at a young age I knew one day I would study physics. As a boy, I received a telescope for Christmas, and from that point on my view was fixed on the night sky; gazing at star clusters, nebula and galaxies was my favourite preoccupation. It was only later that I learned that these lights and the twinkling in eyepiece were actually the expressions of a chaotic and violent force of nature – the direct conversion of matter into energy during the fusion of an atomic nucleus.


My curiosity carried me, as if on a high, through 10 semesters of study and subsequent graduation. It was a time of discovery that involved the tedious task of understanding. At times I felt exasperation and self doubt with respect to the sheer complexity and breadth of what there was to learn. Yet, there were times of joy whenever the fog lifted and the clarity and beauty of physical descriptions of natural phenomena moved in its place. It was a time that, unfortunately, passed all too quickly and is now some years in the past.

The great minds that accompanied me through my studies were Planck, Sommerfeld, Bohr, Einstein, Heisenberg, and a host of others who, for us physicists, are still very much alive today. They are great thinkers who contributed to unravelling the puzzles of nature and the forces which keep the world together through the most minute structures. I devoured the stories of Otto Hahn and Lise Meitner, of Enrico Fermi and Edward Teller – to name a few – and on how they created completely new technologies from theoretical concepts, how the energy stored in the nucleus of an atom could be used for the good of man and how it became possible in a single process to tap into this source of affordable, clean and plentiful energy on a large scale as never seen by man. Electricity illuminates our world, drives our machines, allow us to communicate over great distances, thus making our lives easier and more comfortable. It is a source of energy that staves off poverty and enables prosperity.

Electricity: manufactured by splitting atomic nuclei with neutrons, gained through the direct conversion of mass into energy. It is the principle by which (via the reverse process of fusion) the stars twinkle in the night sky, a principle by which our sun enables life on our planet.

As a physicist it fills me with great joy and pride to see how man is able to rouse this force of nature at the most minute structural level, then amplify, control, and use it for our benefit. As a physicist I have the fundamental understanding of the processes – I can imagine them and describe them. As a physicist I have neither fear of an atomic power plant nor of radioactivity. Ultimately I know that it is a natural phenomenon that is always around us, one we can never escape – and one that we never need to escape. And I know the first as a symbol of man’s capability to steer the forces of nature. As a physicist I have no fear of what nature has to offer. Rather I have respect. And this respect beckons us to seize the chances like those offered by neutrons, which can split nuclei and thus convert matter into energy. Anything else would be ignorance and cowardice.

Dark times in history

There were times in history when ignorance and cowardice overshadowed human life. It was a time when our ancestors were forced to lead a life filled with superstition and fear because it was forbidden to use creativity and fantasy. Religious dogma, like the earth being the centre of the universe, or creationism, forbade people to question. The forbiddance of opening a human body and examining it prevented questions from being answered. Today these medieval rules appear backwards and close-minded. We simply cannot imagine this way of thinking could have any acceptance.

But over the recent days I have grown concerned that we are headed again for such dark times. Hysterical and sensationalist media reporting, paired with a remarkably stark display of ignorance of technical and scientific interrelations, and the attempt by a vast majority of journalists to fan the public’s angst and opposition to nuclear energy – pure witch-burning disguised as modernity.

Freedom of research

So it fills me with sadness and anger on how the work of the above mentioned giants of physics is now being dragged through the mud, how the greatest scientific discoveries of the 20th century are being redefined and criminalized. The current debate in Germany is also a debate on freedom of research. The stigmatization and ostracism of nuclear energy, the demand for an immediate stop of its use, is also the demand for the end of its research and development. No job possibilities also means no students, which means no faculty, which then means the end of the growth of our knowledge. Stopping nuclear energy is nothing less than rejecting the legacy of Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr and all others. It is tantamount to scrapping it, labelling it as dangerous – all in a fit of ignorance. And just as creationists attempt to ban the theory of evolution from the school books, it almost seems as if every factual and neutral explanation in Germany is now in the process of being deleted.

The media suggests a nuclear catastrophe, a mega-meltdown, and that the apocalypse has already begun. It is almost as if the 10,000 deaths in Japan were actually victims of nuclear energy, and not the earthquake or the tsunami. Here again one has to remind us that Fukushima was first hit by an unimaginable 9.0 earthquake and then by a massive 10-meter wave of water just an hour later. As a result, the facility no longer found itself in a highly technological area, but surrounded by a desert of rubble. All around the power plant the infrastructure, residential areas, traffic routes, energy and communication networks are simply no longer there. They were wiped out. Yet, after an entire week, the apocalypse still has not come to pass. Only relatively small amounts of radioactive materials have leaked out and have had only a local impact. If one considers the pure facts exclusively, i.e. only the things we really know, then it exposes the unfounded interpretations of scientific illiterates in the media. One can only arrive to one conclusion: This sorrowful state will remain so.

In truth, this does not show that the ideologically motivated, fear-laden admonitions and warnings were correct. Fukushima illustrates that we are indeed able to control atomic energy. Fukushima shows that we can master it even when natural disasters beyond planning befall us. Still, at Fukushima the conflict between human creativity/competence continues to clamour against the bond energy in atomic nuclei. It’s a struggle that that shows what human intelligence, knowledge gained, passion, boldness, respect, and capability to learn allow us to do. Personally this does not fill me with apprehension, but with hope. Man can meet this challenge not only because he has to, but most of all because he wants to.

Even though I have not practiced physics for some time now, I will never be anything other than a scientist and researcher, and there would be no other place I would rather be than on site at Fukushima. There is no other place at the moment where so much can be learned about atomic energy, which keeps our world together deep inside, and the technical possibilities to benefit from it. Do we have the courage to learn? Do we accept – with respect and confidence – the opportunities we are confronted with? Fukushima will show us possibilities on how to use the direct conversion of matter into energy in a better and safer way, something that Einstein and others could have only dreamed of.

I am a physicist. My wish is to live in a world that is willing to learn and to improve whatever is good. I would only like to live in a world where great strides in physics are viewed with fascination, pride, and hope because they show us the way to a better future. I would only like to live in a world that has the courage for a better world. Any other world for me is unacceptable. Never. That’s why I am going to fight for this world, without ever relenting.
————————————————–

Translated from the German, with the permission of Peter Heller, by Bernd Felsche and Pierre Gosselin. Original text appeared here: http://www.science-skeptical.de/blog/fukushima/004149/
Click to expand...
 
Why isn't it copyright protected from YOU? Appearing on the Internet doesn't take it out of copyright. You have proof that Heller gave YOU permission to repost it?

Do you have the vaguest understanding of copyright law in the United States?
 
sr71plt said:
Why isn't it copyright protected from YOU? Appearing on the Internet doesn't take it out of copyright. You have proof that Heller gave YOU permission to repost it?

Do you have the vaguest understanding of copyright law in the United States?
Click to expand...

You're not very bright, are you?


 
I think that Japanese explanation was brilliant.
It made the point well enough so anyone could understand it: not just kids.

A damn sight more informative than some so-called news reporting, assuming we can believe what we are told.
 
mynameisben said:
It's actually a more technically precise summary of the week's events than what I saw this morning on Good Day LA.
Click to expand...

Handley_Page said:
I think that Japanese explanation was brilliant.
Click to expand...

Well, it was lucid, if somewhat...original. ;)

What I find pretty curious are the “booo, see it's nothing” comments, though. What happened is pretty damn bad, and could have very easily been much worse. It kind of makes me wonder what those who say it's nothing expected—the whole archipelago to blow up and sink Atlantis style, with a mushroom cloud rising over it? If that's it, then yeah, nothing happened and couldn't have happened either. They, much less we, are not “all gonna die”, but then, I'm pretty sure no one suggested we would.

On the other hand, the likelihood of a new sarcophagus and a new Zone, plus some cancers whose cause no one will be able to prove, plus whatever else is yet to surface, definitely is something. Whether it's a kind of something that makes one wonder about nuclear energy is for everyone to decide for themselves; it's just pretty asinine to claim it was nothing just because the climax fell short of a disaster movie.
 
JackLuis said:
Spent fuel pools? How many are there?

What do they do with the 'Poo"?



71,862 tons is a lot of Poo!​
Click to expand...


If you want a preview of how government will deal with the deficit and fix Social Security and healthcare, look no further than its management of Yucca Mountain.

$14,000,000,000 ( fourteen billion dollars ) spent and the result is ...



Oh..., you might also want to make inquiries on the subject of nuclear fuel reprocessing.


http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=28907

Putin suggests Germans replace nuclear with firewood


01 December 2010
Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin has told German businessmen that they may have to rely on Russian firewood for heating if they do not want to construct new nuclear power plants or bring in Russian gas supplies. At a business conference organized in Berlin by the German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Putin recognised that "the German public does not like the nuclear power industry for some reason." He continued: "But I cannot understand what fuel you will take for heating. You do not want gas, you do not develop the nuclear power industry, so you will heat with firewood?" Putin then noted, "You will have to go to Siberia to buy the firewood there," as Europeans "do not even have firewood."
Click to expand...



 
trysail said:
If you want a preview of how government will deal with the deficit and fix Social Security and healthcare, look no further than its management of Yucca Mountain.

$14,000,000,000 ( fourteen billion dollars ) spent and the result is ...
Oh..., you might also want to make inquiries on the subject of nuclear fuel reprocessing.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
Click to expand...

Yeah, Nevada folks didn't want it. and Harry Reed & Co sunk the whole idea.

Maybe the Hanford plot in Washington is the right place, it's already hot.
 
I just got back to Sydney after 9 days in Japan. Two in Tokyo then down to Osaka for a week. Not much to see away from the North East coastal region.

A few observations.

People seem to have reacted well to the earthquake and Tsunami, very stoic, they complain hardly at all. Transport, Petrol and food supplies still locally problematic. Japanese don't like to complain publicly especially to foreigners, but there is an under current of opinion that local bureaucrats performed poorly and often waited for instructions from Tokyo (which didn't come because communications were out)

Much praise of emergency services and school teachers who often took leadership roles because schools were evacuation centres.

The Nuclear problem seems to be upsetting people well outside the immediate proximity. Again people don't complain vociferously but it's plain they thought the government was economical with the truth early on, The plant operatives failure to update risk management particularly the security of fuel supplies and protection of the emergency diesel generators has drawn open criticism.

The media in Tokyo has shown one or two of the more hysterical foreign media reports with subtitles basically mocking the foreigners scaremongering, but as the problems increased the joke quickly wore thin. The people seem to manifest a general malaise and after 10 years of economic slump have little faith in the political leadership's capacity to fix things.

My daughter in law left Tokyo with her 3 year old for Osaka after the Quake to visit friends. I brought my grand daughter back with me to Sydney for a few weeks rather than have her go back north to Tokyo. She's been learning to Skype her mum and dad today and the novelty hasn't worn off yet. I and my wife are dusting off forgotten parenting skills.:)
 
Interesting, Ishtat. Thanks. How vocal did you find the people in Japan about the situation? I was in two major quakes in Tokyo in the mid seventies and found the Japanese to go immediately to internalizing and stoicism after one of these--not being at all vocal about what was happening. At the time I thought it must be a Shinto "thing."
 
sr71plt said:
Interesting, Ishtat. Thanks. How vocal did you find the people in Japan about the situation? I was in two major quakes in Tokyo in the mid seventies and found the Japanese to go immediately to internalizing and stoicism after one of these--not being at all vocal about what was happening. At the time I thought it must be a Shinto "thing."
Click to expand...

Not such a simple question to answer. The older people, and Japan has a particularly elderly population definitely responds in the way you describe as do rural dwellers. That is still the dominant ethic but in the cities and especially with younger people it is much easier these days to get them to express opinions. The response to the 'Quake and the Tsunami was very typically 'old' Japanese values. They largely suppress their emotional response and endure and achieve much in so doing.

I asked a number of people how they would compare the response to the 'quake/Tsunami with the Gulf oil spill. The older people said almost unanimously that the blame making /name calling etc with respect to the Gulf would never happen in Japan and I got the impression they thought it was a little shameful for Americans.

Younger people on the other hand tended to think that maybe they should do a little more complaining and particularly with respect to the Nuclear problems. It is stronger but still muted by western standards. The main complaints were against the operators of the power stations and the regulators. It is evident they have been sitting on recommendations for improvement in the plants' risk management for years.

Interestingly it was GE which blew the whistle first. A senior nuclear regulator appeared on TV and asserted that GE's plant designs were inadequate. A GE rep immediately responded by saying that might be the case but their recommendations for improvements had been ignored for years. A Japanese company would never have come out and swatted the regulator like that.

Younger Japanese seem to have appreciated GE's input more than their elders.

Overall Japanese society is going through something of a crisis. Their economy has been moribund for ten years and they have lost leadership of east Asia to the Chinese who they regard as barbarians. They tend to blame the leadership without blaming the leaders so much - almost the opposite of what we do!

I won't say any more because I think it might be excessively speculative.
 
Yeah, Americans (in general) do always need someone (else) to blame for anything that happens. It's rampant on this board from time to time.
 
Please note that the previous post attributed to cold diesel was in fact from me!

Cold diesel is in fact my elder brother and is staying with me at the moment. I would not like my remarks to be attributed to him and I guess he would feel similarly.:)

Ishtat
 
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