Kim's poly/kink thread reinvented ...

[KimGordon67]

(As a key to Paul's code, LOL, BG stands for "Beach Girl", SR for "Saucy Redhead" (my "pandemic wife" as we often joke, since we closed ourselves in the small social bubble together), and SWMNBN for "She Who Must Not Be Named", with whom I have had a long, deep, committed non-monogamous relationship across many years and many life events and other lovers.)

*Ahem*

_____________________________

I think these are sensible categories that make sense to me. I wonder if part of the problem is that people get so committed to just 'looking for' one thing that they don't let themselves be open to anything else. Like with the Local Guy (LG ), a lot of what was happening with us felt like 'casual committed', but he was so committed to his narrative of 'only wanting' casual intermittent that he couldn't quite get his head around some of the parts that were necessary to keep the 'casual committed' option working for everyone. And really, 'casual intermittent' is difficult to maintain if you're seeing each other every week. That does describe the thing I had with the guy I was seeing last year - we only saw each other every month or so. And I was good with that, because I knew that's what was going on. The problem I have is with uncertainty ... this isn't peculiar to relationships - I don't deal with uncertainty very well in any aspect of life. With the current lockdown being extended a few days at a time, it's driving me mad. I'm absolutely fine in situations of disaster or whatever - I don't panic and I'm good at problem-solving. But uncertainty ... not so great. Even now that I'm missing LG still, I feel better knowing that I'm not seeing him than I did seeing him but feel like I was constantly on uneven ground, like I never really knew whether the time I was spending with him was going to be the last time. (That's wound up with some of my insecurities ... but years of therapy don't seem to have shifted that very much. A little bit, but not much.) I really wish I was the kind of person who just had a c'est la vie attitude to these things ... but I'm not. And I honestly would have been fine with seeing LG every month if I knew that's what was happening ... it was really him who developed the 'Thursday evenings' pattern, but then he couldn't even commit to that.

I'm rambling ...

 

[Paul_Chance]

*Ahem*

LOL oops. "Kim's Code that she invented and I blatantly adopted and stole for my own devious purposes. Or, as we call it in the software industry to avoid paying royalties, "inspired by"."

 

[ultramarineblue]

Well ... yes. It's all very well saying 'these are my non-negotiables' when there isn't a person with a penis and a cheeky smile sitting in front of me and a glass of wine in my hand. I do have a terrible habit of crumbling in that context ... I just need to practice things in my head. Although it's all hypothetical unless he does get in touch.

This is so hard for me too. I will be adamant that I'm done but then it's not so easy after a message. It does become easier through time though.

 

[KimGordon67]

I really miss sex.

Good sex.

Good sex with someone I like.

I miss having someone I like being around sometimes.

Dammit.

 

[ultramarineblue]

I really miss sex.

Good sex.

Good sex with someone I like.

I miss having someone I like being around sometimes.

Dammit.

 

[AngelicaS1780]

The problem I have is with uncertainty ... this isn't peculiar to relationships - I don't deal with uncertainty very well in any aspect of life. With the current lockdown being extended a few days at a time, it's driving me mad. I'm absolutely fine in situations of disaster or whatever - I don't panic and I'm good at problem-solving. But uncertainty ... not so great. Even now that I'm missing LG still, I feel better knowing that I'm not seeing him than I did seeing him but feel like I was constantly on uneven ground, like I never really knew whether the time I was spending with him was going to be the last time. (That's wound up with some of my insecurities ... but years of therapy don't seem to have shifted that very much. A little bit, but not much.) I really wish I was the kind of person who just had a c'est la vie attitude to these things ... but I'm not. And I honestly would have been fine with seeing LG every month if I knew that's what was happening ... it was really him who developed the 'Thursday evenings' pattern, but then he couldn't even commit to that.

I'm right there with you, Kim. Those statements describe me so well. It's something that I have recently started to focus on, even going back to therapy after a 10-12 year break. I know that it stems from a need for control. The thinking being, of course, that if I don't know what to expect or what the plan is, then I feel like I have no control. Conversely, if I do feel like I have control of a situation, then I feel like I am safe...or at least safer. I believe that I am less likely to get hurt if I know the plan or how everything is supposed to work. Probably started as a coping mechanism to try to manage the anxiety issues I have had from a young age.

I know that my struggles with uncertainty/lack of control affect many areas of my life. However, about a year ago, they began to affect my relationship with a friend who is very important to me. It was the fear of losing his friendship that finally pushed me to try and deal with these particular issues.

tl;dr Women who Struggle with Uncertainty + Certain Men =

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm right there with you, Kim. Those statements describe me so well. It's something that I have recently started to focus on, even going back to therapy after a 10-12 year break. I know that it stems from a need for control. The thinking being, of course, that if I don't know what to expect or what the plan is, then I feel like I have no control. Conversely, if I do feel like I have control of a situation, then I feel like I am safe...or at least safer. I believe that I am less likely to get hurt if I know the plan or how everything is supposed to work. Probably started as a coping mechanism to try to manage the anxiety issues I have had from a young age.

I know that my struggles with uncertainty/lack of control affect many areas of my life. However, about a year ago, they began to affect my relationship with a friend who is very important to me. It was the fear of losing his friendship that finally pushed me to try and deal with these particular issues.

tl;dr Women who Struggle with Uncertainty + Certain Men =

This is absolutely brilliant! I'm going to respond more fully when I can, but thank you! So much to think about right there.

 

[cookiecat]

Your husband was younger (I think...), healthier, and a man.
Any one of these on it's own is enough to change the situation and all three together make it a very different story.

Basically what I am saying is that the option of loosing you for your husband was just that - loosing you. He still had a chance of meeting somebody else.
Loosing her husband for this guy's wife meant (and still means) being alone for the rest of her life.

I'm late to this party but this comment took me by surprise.

The wife in question got sick at 50. It's 15 years later. If she chose to leave the relationship, why do you assume she'd be alone for the rest of her life?

That's bananas. I'm 60. I've been dating, have had plenty of of interested people (younger, older, my age) and don't think I'll slow down when I'm 70.

We don't dry up and rot away after the age of 50.

Geeze.

 

[cookiecat]

<snip>...because I knew that's what was going on. The problem I have is with uncertainty ... this isn't peculiar to relationships - I don't deal with uncertainty very well in any aspect of life. With the current lockdown being extended a few days at a time, it's driving me mad. I'm absolutely fine in situations of disaster or whatever - I don't panic and I'm good at problem-solving. But uncertainty ... not so great. Even now that I'm missing LG still, I feel better knowing that I'm not seeing him than I did seeing him but feel like I was constantly on uneven ground, like I never really knew whether the time I was spending with him was going to be the last time. (That's wound up with some of my insecurities ... but years of therapy don't seem to have shifted that very much. A little bit, but not much.) I really wish I was the kind of person who just had a c'est la vie attitude to these things ... but I'm not. And I honestly would have been fine with seeing LG every month if I knew that's what was happening ... it was really him who developed the 'Thursday evenings' pattern, but then he couldn't even commit to that.

I'm rambling ...

I'm right there with you, Kim. Those statements describe me so well. It's something that I have recently started to focus on, even going back to therapy after a 10-12 year break. I know that it stems from a need for control. The thinking being, of course, that if I don't know what to expect or what the plan is, then I feel like I have no control. Conversely, if I do feel like I have control of a situation, then I feel like I am safe...or at least safer. I believe that I am less likely to get hurt if I know the plan or how everything is supposed to work. Probably started as a coping mechanism to try to manage the anxiety issues I have had from a young age.

I know that my struggles with uncertainty/lack of control affect many areas of my life. However, about a year ago, they began to affect my relationship with a friend who is very important to me. It was the fear of losing his friendship that finally pushed me to try and deal with these particular issues.

tl;dr Women who Struggle with Uncertainty + Certain Men =

This all resonates so much. A need to control outcomes. Wanting to know the future. Wrap up relationships and feelings in a tidy package.

I'm dating this guy long distance. It's been about 9 months now.

By the third time we met, I asked him where he thought we were going. Where was this headed? How did he *really* feel about me?

He started laughing. Did I want it in writing? I was pissed he was so cavalier. I'd flown a zillion miles to be with him. I didn't want to invest any more time, money, energy if he couldn't tell me..... what? What was I expecting to hear at this stage?

We talked about this need for control. I said it wasn't control, it was just wanting... what? What did I really want him to say??

I had to think about it. We had already decided we were going to date just each other. What more did I want on the third date?

It made me anxious. I wanted him to tell me 100 things about how committed he was, how amazing I was, how the distance wasn't a big deal. I wanted reassurance. I wanted it in black and white.

I turned this over, thought about my past, what I wanted with him. So the fourth time we met, I decided to let my desire for knowing EXACTLY how he felt about EXACTLY where we were in our relationship go.

Wherever we went, we were going to go. Yeah, in my heart I wanted to hear the words. But once I stopped asking, we both relaxed. It was this fourth time we were together everything clicked. I wasn't trying to control anything. I decided to enjoy him and not get all wrapped up in what would happen next.

In this whole relationship, I've thrown a lot of my past behaviors, patterns, expectations - whatever you want to call them - out the window. I always had a list of "must haves." Got rid of that, too.

I questioned whether I was lowering standards? Not being true to me, my values. You know the saying "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result?" I had that in my head. It was time to try something new.

So far, this has been one of my most satisfying relationships. We are moving in together next month. I'm curious whether my need to control the future, control outcomes will pop back in?

It's a weird trying to just let things flow. Be more in the moment. All that zen stuff. While I can try to manage things in my life, I can only control me. Right? Ugh. Sometimes thinking too much hurts.

There's my ramble.

Here's hoping the lockdown doesn't drive you too crazy!!

 

[cookiecat]

Good luck on the shut down. That's how we started - two weeks, just a few weeks more, maybe by the end of April....fast forward to a year and half and we finally opened back up and....slam right into the summer surge, despite the high levels of vaccination in our county. Be safe. All and all you've all done well there, so keep up the good work. I miss random sex LOL. Now, I feel like I have to run them through a complete medical checklist before an encounter.

"Have you been exposed to anyone with Covid-19 in the last two weeks?"
"Please list all your social contacts in the last two weeks, with context."
"Please validate your vaccination status?"
"Please validate your latest STD test date?"
"Please provide a certified copy of a letter from your psychologist confirming that the pandemic has not made you batshit crazy?"
"Please indicate if your psychological reaction to the pandemic involves any sort of sexual deviance. If you, please describe your deviance description in detail."

Is it wrong to think about asking if a potential partner would consider wearing a mask / shield and somehow incorporate it into a kink scene?

 

[KimGordon67]

This all resonates so much. A need to control outcomes. Wanting to know the future. Wrap up relationships and feelings in a tidy package.

I'm dating this guy long distance. It's been about 9 months now.

By the third time we met, I asked him where he thought we were going. Where was this headed? How did he *really* feel about me?

He started laughing. Did I want it in writing? I was pissed he was so cavalier. I'd flown a zillion miles to be with him. I didn't want to invest any more time, money, energy if he couldn't tell me..... what? What was I expecting to hear at this stage?

We talked about this need for control. I said it wasn't control, it was just wanting... what? What did I really want him to say??

I had to think about it. We had already decided we were going to date just each other. What more did I want on the third date?

It made me anxious. I wanted him to tell me 100 things about how committed he was, how amazing I was, how the distance wasn't a big deal. I wanted reassurance. I wanted it in black and white.

I turned this over, thought about my past, what I wanted with him. So the fourth time we met, I decided to let my desire for knowing EXACTLY how he felt about EXACTLY where we were in our relationship go.

Wherever we went, we were going to go. Yeah, in my heart I wanted to hear the words. But once I stopped asking, we both relaxed. It was this fourth time we were together everything clicked. I wasn't trying to control anything. I decided to enjoy him and not get all wrapped up in what would happen next.

In this whole relationship, I've thrown a lot of my past behaviors, patterns, expectations - whatever you want to call them - out the window. I always had a list of "must haves." Got rid of that, too.

I questioned whether I was lowering standards? Not being true to me, my values. You know the saying "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result?" I had that in my head. It was time to try something new.

So far, this has been one of my most satisfying relationships. We are moving in together next month. I'm curious whether my need to control the future, control outcomes will pop back in?

It's a weird trying to just let things flow. Be more in the moment. All that zen stuff. While I can try to manage things in my life, I can only control me. Right? Ugh. Sometimes thinking too much hurts.

There's my ramble.

Here's hoping the lockdown doesn't drive you too crazy!!

I'm so happy to hear this. And I love your approach of actually doing something new. Things definitely took a downward trajectory with my Local Guy when all my old behaviours started raring (rearing?) their ugly heads ... I'm spending a bit of time mulling over Angelica's words. I really wish I could say to LG 'look - I've worked out ALL THIS STUFF ... let's try again' ... but really there was stuff he was doing that was a bit crappy too, and he's just not up for looking at that. C'est la vie. I'm so happy you found someone who had the patience to let you work your stuff out ... we deserve people who don't expect everything to be (their version of) perfect all the time.

 

[AngelicaS1780]

This all resonates so much. A need to control outcomes. Wanting to know the future. Wrap up relationships and feelings in a tidy package.

I'm dating this guy long distance. It's been about 9 months now.

By the third time we met, I asked him where he thought we were going. Where was this headed? How did he *really* feel about me?

He started laughing. Did I want it in writing? I was pissed he was so cavalier. I'd flown a zillion miles to be with him. I didn't want to invest any more time, money, energy if he couldn't tell me..... what? What was I expecting to hear at this stage?

We talked about this need for control. I said it wasn't control, it was just wanting... what? What did I really want him to say??

I had to think about it. We had already decided we were going to date just each other. What more did I want on the third date?

It made me anxious. I wanted him to tell me 100 things about how committed he was, how amazing I was, how the distance wasn't a big deal. I wanted reassurance. I wanted it in black and white.

This feels so familiar. In my case, the commitment is to our friendship with the fear being that I will no longer be of interest when newer, shinier, friends come along, especially as there is an ocean between us.

I turned this over, thought about my past, what I wanted with him. So the fourth time we met, I decided to let my desire for knowing EXACTLY how he felt about EXACTLY where we were in our relationship go.

Wherever we went, we were going to go. Yeah, in my heart I wanted to hear the words. But once I stopped asking, we both relaxed. It was this fourth time we were together everything clicked. I wasn't trying to control anything. I decided to enjoy him and not get all wrapped up in what would happen next.

In this whole relationship, I've thrown a lot of my past behaviors, patterns, expectations - whatever you want to call them - out the window. I always had a list of "must haves." Got rid of that, too.

I questioned whether I was lowering standards? Not being true to me, my values. You know the saying "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result?" I had that in my head. It was time to try something new.

So far, this has been one of my most satisfying relationships. We are moving in together next month. I'm curious whether my need to control the future, control outcomes will pop back in?

It's a weird trying to just let things flow. Be more in the moment. All that zen stuff. While I can try to manage things in my life, I can only control me. Right? Ugh. Sometimes thinking too much hurts.
There's my ramble.
Here's hoping the lockdown doesn't drive you too crazy!!

Yes...all the strategies and ways of thinking that I am trying to embrace and put into practice. I also remind myself that, even if our friendship never returns to the level of closeness that we once had, even if he was to decide that he never wants to speak to me again, I will survive and life will go on. Which probably sounds melodramatic to some, but as a person who has struggled with decades of anxiety and depression, sometimes I need to remind myself that my thoughts and feelings can get hijacked and blown out of proportion.

I'm so happy to hear this. And I love your approach of actually doing something new. Things definitely took a downward trajectory with my Local Guy when all my old behaviours started raring (rearing?) their ugly heads ... I'm spending a bit of time mulling over Angelica's words. I really wish I could say to LG 'look - I've worked out ALL THIS STUFF ... let's try again' ... but really there was stuff he was doing that was a bit crappy too, and he's just not up for looking at that. C'est la vie. I'm so happy you found someone who had the patience to let you work your stuff out ... we deserve people who don't expect everything to be (their version of) perfect all the time.

I will never work out *all* of this stuff. While the challenges to our friendship are what finally made me make that phone call to the therapist, I already knew that control issues and anxiety were having detrimental effects in other parts of my life. I also want to make these changes for me and for the other relationships in my life. You know enough about LG to know that "fixing" you isn't going to "fix" him. I feel like it's a balance between not letting your insecurities and anxiety rule your behavior and being honest with yourself as to what the other person wants and is capable of giving.

Regardless of the outcome, I will learn some things about myself and how to interact better with the world.

 

[KimGordon67]

I will never work out *all* of this stuff. While the challenges to our friendship are what finally made me make that phone call to the therapist, I already knew that control issues and anxiety were having detrimental effects in other parts of my life. I also want to make these changes for me and for the other relationships in my life. You know enough about LG to know that "fixing" you isn't going to "fix" him. I feel like it's a balance between not letting your insecurities and anxiety rule your behavior and being honest with yourself as to what the other person wants and is capable of giving.

Regardless of the outcome, I will learn some things about myself and how to interact better with the world.

Yes ... I have a terrible habit of blaming myself for everything that goes wrong in any 'relationship', but often it's that the other person has their own shit going on. The ones that have worked well - my marriage, TG (discussed at length earlier in this thread) are where the other people haven't tried to dismiss my weird insecurities, but instead just dealt with them head on. Although I need to get stuff under control a bit, it's also helpful if the other person recognises that they can help with that process, instead of just perpetually triggering things. Because the sooner any doubt is dealt with, the less chance it has to get blown out of all proportion. TG was great at that - if he sensed I was on edge about something, he would call immediately. And with my ex, I finally realised that I could stop worrying about him leaving, because he hadn't left yet, in spite of all my mentalness ... because he actually loved me.

I think it's a problem when I say to LG for example, 'I need a tiny bit of certainty', which for me is just asking for a bit of help dealing with my shit, but for him sounds like I'm asking for a massive commitment. I'm not sure how to manage that.

(Do I need to rename this 'Kim's therapy thread'? )

 

[IrisAlthea]

This feels so familiar. In my case, the commitment is to our friendship with the fear being that I will no longer be of interest when newer, shinier, friends come along, especially as there is an ocean between us.



Yes...all the strategies and ways of thinking that I am trying to embrace and put into practice. I also remind myself that, even if our friendship never returns to the level of closeness that we once had, even if he was to decide that he never wants to speak to me again, I will survive and life will go on. Which probably sounds melodramatic to some, but as a person who has struggled with decades of anxiety and depression, sometimes I need to remind myself that my thoughts and feelings can get hijacked and blown out of proportion.




I will never work out *all* of this stuff. While the challenges to our friendship are what finally made me make that phone call to the therapist, I already knew that control issues and anxiety were having detrimental effects in other parts of my life. I also want to make these changes for me and for the other relationships in my life. You know enough about LG to know that "fixing" you isn't going to "fix" him. I feel like it's a balance between not letting your insecurities and anxiety rule your behavior and being honest with yourself as to what the other person wants and is capable of giving.

Regardless of the outcome, I will learn some things about myself and how to interact better with the world.

The bolded parts are cross stitch pillow worthy, in my opinion.

That feeling of beeing perfectly aligned, every feeling being perfectly reciprocated is not very sustainable when the new relationship energy fades. After that I think it does take work to balance the need for security and the need for space and then those insights will help a lot.

 

[AngelicaS1780]

The bolded parts are cross stitch pillow worthy, in my opinion.

That feeling of beeing perfectly aligned, every feeling being perfectly reciprocated is not very sustainable when the new relationship energy fades. After that I think it does take work to balance the need for security and the need for space and then those insights will help a lot.

 

[ultramarineblue]

I have learned so much in your thread, Kim. You do eloquently express so many of the thoughts and issues that I have and then the others that contribute also help tremendously. I'm very thankful that you share your experiences and vulnerabilities here because I can relate to so many of them.

 

[KimGordon67]

So I finally got around to asking the guy half of the couple I've been chatting with if his girlfriend was OK with the fact that it was really just him I was messaging with (because it just happened that way after we moved off using Tinder to message, and onto Facebook messenger). He totally got what I meant, assured me that actually when 'he' was messaging, they were talking to each about what to say, so it was really 'them' all along, and then immediately opened a group chat with both of them in it. This makes me happy ... so nice to just have some clear and uncomplicated communication with people!

Also a little proud of myself ... I realised a couple of weeks ago that either LG had gone off Tinder since our weird encounter a while back, or has blocked me. I made a new profile this morning (I switch them up a bit, for various reasons), and if he'd blocked me, I could have gotten around that when I made the new profile by using a different contact method. I thought about it for a minute, just to see if I was right (just out of curiousity, not because I thought we'd match again or anything, because obviously that wouldn't happen), but then decided that no, it's utterly his right to block me and I just need to respect that.

 

[Paul_Chance]

The Ethics of Group Sex

I'm glad you were able to get that "who am I communicating" with issue resolved. That's something I'm always conscious off and sensitive to in any group sex scenario. The ability for one partner to be coercing another into something they don't want to do is always present and risky. It's always best to have that cleanly and clearly communicated.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm glad you were able to get that "who am I communicating" with issue resolved. That's something I'm always conscious off and sensitive to in any group sex scenario. The ability for one partner to be coercing another into something they don't want to do is always present and risky. It's always best to have that cleanly and clearly communicated.

I totally get what you mean, although in this instance I was pretty confident there wasn't any coercion or other subterfuge going on, and they're very clearly totally in love (and he's obviously especially smitten with her). Absolutely nothing was raising red flags. But I was just aware of the potential for one of them to end up getting to know me better than the other, and the risk there was that throwing things a bit off-balance.

In other news, I had a weird encounter with the LG earlier in the week ... I messaged him to say I was ready to go with the work he's doing for me, and he mentioned it was his birthday, and that led to a message exchange that started out with just pleasant chat but then somehow evolved into him asking me if I was looking to get laid. I wasn't really sure how to respond to that, but after a bit of thinking, decided to just go with it ... at which point he said he couldn't come over because he was drunk and stoned ... so I said that it actually wasn't OK for him to start with that flirting shit again when he knew full well how I felt, and that taking the piss out of me because he found it funny actually isn't OK, which is probably the most forthright I've ever been with him. I assumed he'd just disappear, but he totally surprised me asking if I was OK and saying he really hadn't meant to upset me ... so then there was a bit more banter and that faded out when I went to bed ... but obviously just left me totally confused AGAIN.

So I messaged in the morning and just said 'do you want to see me - yes or no', and got this much less friendly response saying 'I just like things totally uncomplicated - strictly business from now on'. Obviously a no. So fuck knows what all the previous day's flirting was about.

Then yesterday morning I finally decided I was just a bit sick of him making out that it was only me making things 'complicated' and sent a tiny tirade about how totally fucking confusing his mixed messaging had been since the day we met, and suggested that just because something is 'uncomplicated' for HIM, it might still actually be infuriatingly complicated for other people - i.e. me. (Not quite those exact words, but that was the general meaning.) Of course, there's been no response, which I totally expected, but I do feel better for having said that.

I think when he says he wants things to be 'uncomplicated', that actually means 'I'll just do whatever the fuck I feel like, and not care about the effect it's having, and if the other person is unhappy about that I can just bail because their dissatisfaction is 'complicating' things.'

I feel a bit better for having finally (*finally*!!!!) reached this point, and feel like I'm a bit more in control of the narrative, at least from my perspective, and I can stop trying to work out what I did 'wrong'. He's a dick, and that isn't going to change, no matter what I do or say.
God knows if I'll actually get this work done now, but I really don't care that much - it's worth having crappy gutters if it means I feel better.

 

[JDredd711]

Hear hear! Good for you!!!

 

[ultramarineblue]

So glad you are feeling better about everything!

 

[KimGordon67]

And I have a date on Saturday!

 

[AnnieLit]

And I have a date on Saturday!

Yeay!!! Have fun!

As for the last exchange with LG: it's hard when you still have to be in touch about other things, clean breaks are so much easier. Maybe the new date will take your mind off him.

 

[KimGordon67]

Yeay!!! Have fun!

As for the last exchange with LG: it's hard when you still have to be in touch about other things, clean breaks are so much easier. Maybe the new date will take your mind off him.

I'm a little annoyed, because I thought we could at least maintain something that was at least a bit friendly. But his insistence on randomly complicating that with the flirting (even after I specifically asked him not to) just made it impossible.

 

[AngelicaS1780]

Hey Kim ~ I am glad that you were able to have some resolution with the LG situation. You deserve someone who is capable of communication.