Kim's poly/kink thread reinvented ...

[phil1955]

Him being a man makes a difference because at 50 a man has a lot bigger pool of potentially interested partners than a woman of the same age. At 25 it was the other way around.

I understand and completely agree with all your arguments for an open marriage. Except one little problem: she knew that there was no sex, she must have known that it was a problem for him. I mean, why wouldn't it be a problem? She got sick, not him. And yet she did not offer him a way out, it was his idea to which she could not really afford to say no.

An interesting discussion here. I hope that she felt secure enough to let him go do his thing. It also seems that she did not offer or need physical sexual attention. If he is taking care of chores around the house, she might be quite content to not have him bother her for sexual needs.
I can't see that older men have more options than older women. There certainly are plenty of men on Lit complaining about the lack of sex though I suspect a lot of that is relational issues and not sexual issues. I am no expert but I think most any woman who wants sex can find a man. Maybe not Prince Charming each time but still can find available men. For older men, I think interested women are much harder to find.

 

[KimGordon67]

An interesting discussion here. I hope that she felt secure enough to let him go do his thing. It also seems that she did not offer or need physical sexual attention. If he is taking care of chores around the house, she might be quite content to not have him bother her for sexual needs.
I can't see that older men have more options than older women. There certainly are plenty of men on Lit complaining about the lack of sex though I suspect a lot of that is relational issues and not sexual issues. I am no expert but I think most any woman who wants sex can find a man. Maybe not Prince Charming each time but still can find available men. For older men, I think interested women are much harder to find.

I don't know that she's 'letting' him do anything - he is an adult, and can actually do what he wants ... I always find it weird when people say one partner gave the other partner 'permission' or whatever. I didn't need my husband's permission to do anything - I tend to see it as you have a conversation and say how you feel about whatever the things is (in this instance, having an open marriage), and the other person decides whether they're going to take those feelings into account in their decision making process (and ideally they should, if they genuinely care about the other person). It's the difference between asking 'Is it OK if I do xyz?' and 'How would you feel about me doing xyz?' I tend to be happier if my partner asks how I feel about a certain thing, rather than asking me for 'permission'.

 

[phil1955]

I don't know that she's 'letting' him do anything - he is an adult, and can actually do what he wants ... I always find it weird when people say one partner gave the other partner 'permission' or whatever. I didn't need my husband's permission to do anything - I tend to see it as you have a conversation and say how you feel about whatever the things is (in this instance, having an open marriage), and the other person decides whether they're going to take those feelings into account in their decision making process (and ideally they should, if they genuinely care about the other person). It's the difference between asking 'Is it OK if I do xyz?' and 'How would you feel about me doing xyz?' I tend to be happier if my partner asks how I feel about a certain thing, rather than asking me for 'permission'.

I agree that each of us is responsible for our actions and do not really need someone's permission. With so little information, it is difficult to give any advice but one bit of advice is always good. Talk with your partner and try to develop a solution to the problem. I think too few couples actually have serious talks.

 

[KimGordon67]

I agree that each of us is responsible for our actions and do not really need someone's permission. With so little information, it is difficult to give any advice but one bit of advice is always good. Talk with your partner and try to develop a solution to the problem. I think too few couples actually have serious talks.

I don't know that anyone was seeking advice? ... L1511p seems pretty happy with the solution him and his wife found, and I don't have a partner that needs talking with.

 

[Paul_Chance]

So, I've been thinking about this one for the last couple of days.

First, I think we deal all time (and especially in non-traditional relationships) with the problems of communication. How a person expresses themselves. If you look at a lot of internet based disagreements by stepping back from them, you can see a lot of conversations go off the rail based not on what was said, but on what is perceived to be unsaid. The classic "reading between the lines".

It's a good practice to try to deliberately not read between the lines and project substance or meaning into interpretation. One of the training seminars I went to years ago on having difficult conversations emphasized the importance of not projecting meaning judgements into the conversation (They said X, but they really meant Y - and when you suspect that is going on to probe.)

The other thing they emphasized was the importance of starting all conversations with a "Benevolent Assumption". Assume the other person is sincere and has benevolent intent until certain otherwise. In the relationship space it's a caution of "going into the conversation expecting (and hence creating) a confrontation".

Remember, all beings want to be happy and free from suffering and no matter how mangled they may get the conversation, their desire is ultimately the same.

If you consider it like a classic Johari window, where you have the quad of good and bad, with the apex (Good, Good) in the upper left hand quadrant. That is the state everyone wants the relationship to be in. In terms of non-monogamous relationships the upper left quadrant is "good for me, good for you". There are hundred of ways to get into that quadrant (and hundreds of ways to fall out).

 

[KimGordon67]

So, I've been thinking about this one for the last couple of days.

First, I think we deal all time (and especially in non-traditional relationships) with the problems of communication. How a person expresses themselves. If you look at a lot of internet based disagreements by stepping back from them, you can see a lot of conversations go off the rail based not on what was said, but on what is perceived to be unsaid. The classic "reading between the lines".

It's a good practice to try to deliberately not read between the lines and project substance or meaning into interpretation. One of the training seminars I went to years ago on having difficult conversations emphasized the importance of not projecting meaning judgements into the conversation (They said X, but they really meant Y - and when you suspect that is going on to probe.)

The other thing they emphasized was the importance of starting all conversations with a "Benevolent Assumption". Assume the other person is sincere and has benevolent intent until certain otherwise. In the relationship space it's a caution of "going into the conversation expecting (and hence creating) a confrontation".

Remember, all beings want to be happy and free from suffering and no matter how mangled they may get the conversation, their desire is ultimately the same.

If you consider it like a classic Johari window, where you have the quad of good and bad, with the apex (Good, Good) in the upper left hand quadrant. That is the state everyone wants the relationship to be in. In terms of non-monogamous relationships the upper left quadrant is "good for me, good for you". There are hundred of ways to get into that quadrant (and hundreds of ways to fall out).

Yep, fucked communication has a lot to answer for. Really good and continued communication made my separation a whole lot easier, and meant that rather than the relationship *ending*, it just morphed into something else. Really crap communication was utterly at the root of the issues I had with the local guy - in all honesty, I was part of that because I let myself be overwhelmed by his 'rules', rather than just being myself. But what I've learnt from that is that I just need to be clear about things from the get-go, and if how I feel changes, I need to be clear about that too, instead of thinking 'but X agreed to Y, and now that I want Z, X won't like that, so I'll just pretend I'm still happy with Y'.

I'm trying to work out what to do about the couple I've been chatting with ... we were meant to meet up this weekend (or maybe next weekend), but we've gone back into lockdown because ... and everyone should try to not laugh at this ... there's currently 21 positive cases in the community ... by 'the community', I mean the whole country. I'm not complaining at all - the approach we have has really worked for the last year+ - but I do know it probably seem weird to the rest of the world.
Anyway, it means that the conversation we need to have to clarify what we're hoping will happen has gotten delayed yet again, and I'm wondering if we should find some other way to have that conversation, or even just ANY conversation to see if we get on irl as much as we seem to online. Also, we switched from chatting on Tinder, on an account they both had access to, to chatting on Facebook just using his account, so I think I need to address that as well ... I don't think it's related to anything dodgy, there were perfectly good reasons for that happening, but I do feel a bit like I'm ending up have interactions with him that she's not part of, which seems less than ideal.
There's a government update on our lockdown situation this afternoon, so I'll see if that brings any clarity to future movements, and then address the couple situation.

Of course, I'm back in my bubble of one, and a little wistful that me and the local guy (who also lives alone) couldn't have formed a slightly larger bubble of two for a bit more fun ... but oh well.

 

[AnnieLit]

I feel changes, I need to be clear about that too, instead of thinking 'but X agreed to Y, and now that I want Z, X won't like that, so I'll just pretend I'm still happy with Y'.
.

Can I have a poster like that? Asking, in fucking words!!, for what one needs would make the life so much easier for everybody.

I hope your lockdown is not going to be for long.
But yes, it was very hard not to lough at the numbers, we have about 500 in the city and masks will be required in public places starting tomorrow.

 

[KimGordon67]

Can I have a poster like that? Asking, in fucking words!!, for what one needs would make the life so much easier for everybody.

I hope your lockdown is not going to be for long.
But yes, it was very hard not to lough at the numbers, we have about 500 in the city and masks will be required in public places starting tomorrow.

Yes ... and when one isn't sure about the words the other person has used, asking for clarification would be the other part of the puzzle. It's ridiculous how easy it can become to be scared/anxious/nervous about just saying stuff. I think I need to open any potential 'relationship' with a clear statement that I'm an overthinker, and that the best way to avoid problems that can result from that is for me to just say shit or ask about shit when it looks like I'm going to sink into overthinking. So anything loopy I say isn't because I'm crazy, it's just trying to control the crazy a bit.

This is how we've kept our numbers low, of course. We're now also fully masked when engaging in contact with anyone outside our bubble - first time that's been mandated, and people are being pretty compliant, as far as I can see.

 

[ultramarineblue]

So, I've been thinking about this one for the last couple of days.

First, I think we deal all time (and especially in non-traditional relationships) with the problems of communication. How a person expresses themselves. If you look at a lot of internet based disagreements by stepping back from them, you can see a lot of conversations go off the rail based not on what was said, but on what is perceived to be unsaid. The classic "reading between the lines".

It's a good practice to try to deliberately not read between the lines and project substance or meaning into interpretation. One of the training seminars I went to years ago on having difficult conversations emphasized the importance of not projecting meaning judgements into the conversation (They said X, but they really meant Y - and when you suspect that is going on to probe.)

The other thing they emphasized was the importance of starting all conversations with a "Benevolent Assumption". Assume the other person is sincere and has benevolent intent until certain otherwise. In the relationship space it's a caution of "going into the conversation expecting (and hence creating) a confrontation".

Remember, all beings want to be happy and free from suffering and no matter how mangled they may get the conversation, their desire is ultimately the same.

If you consider it like a classic Johari window, where you have the quad of good and bad, with the apex (Good, Good) in the upper left hand quadrant. That is the state everyone wants the relationship to be in. In terms of non-monogamous relationships the upper left quadrant is "good for me, good for you". There are hundred of ways to get into that quadrant (and hundreds of ways to fall out).

I'm so glad that I read this. Even though it wasn't meant for me, thank you so much.

Yep, fucked communication has a lot to answer for. Really good and continued communication made my separation a whole lot easier, and meant that rather than the relationship *ending*, it just morphed into something else. Really crap communication was utterly at the root of the issues I had with the local guy - in all honesty, I was part of that because I let myself be overwhelmed by his 'rules', rather than just being myself. But what I've learnt from that is that I just need to be clear about things from the get-go, and if how I feel changes, I need to be clear about that too, instead of thinking 'but X agreed to Y, and now that I want Z, X won't like that, so I'll just pretend I'm still happy with Y'.

I'm trying to work out what to do about the couple I've been chatting with ... we were meant to meet up this weekend (or maybe next weekend), but we've gone back into lockdown because ... and everyone should try to not laugh at this ... there's currently 21 positive cases in the community ... by 'the community', I mean the whole country. I'm not complaining at all - the approach we have has really worked for the last year+ - but I do know it probably seem weird to the rest of the world.
Anyway, it means that the conversation we need to have to clarify what we're hoping will happen has gotten delayed yet again, and I'm wondering if we should find some other way to have that conversation, or even just ANY conversation to see if we get on irl as much as we seem to online. Also, we switched from chatting on Tinder, on an account they both had access to, to chatting on Facebook just using his account, so I think I need to address that as well ... I don't think it's related to anything dodgy, there were perfectly good reasons for that happening, but I do feel a bit like I'm ending up have interactions with him that she's not part of, which seems less than ideal.
There's a government update on our lockdown situation this afternoon, so I'll see if that brings any clarity to future movements, and then address the couple situation.

Of course, I'm back in my bubble of one, and a little wistful that me and the local guy (who also lives alone) couldn't have formed a slightly larger bubble of two for a bit more fun ... but oh well.

I hope you are able to work out something so that you can maybe chat with the couple online. Do you think zoom would work?

A lot of the time I think I should stay quiet because I feel like I'm so bad at explaining myself and may lead others to interpret what I'm saying differently from what I mean.

I hope the current lockdown doesn't make you struggle with thoughts about local guy.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm so glad that I read this. Even though it wasn't meant for me, thank you so much.



I hope you are able to work out something so that you can maybe chat with the couple online. Do you think zoom would work?

A lot of the time I think I should stay quiet because I feel like I'm so bad at explaining myself and may lead others to interpret what I'm saying differently from what I mean.

I hope the current lockdown doesn't make you struggle with thoughts about local guy.

Actually, I have to admit I found some random (although plausible) reason to message him yesterday. There was a relatively amicable short exchange, and then I stopped because I realised it was just silly on my part. He still has to do some work on my house, but that's a few weeks away ... hopefully I'll be totally over him by then. I'm being kind of myself though - I'm obviously not totally over him yet, and I probably will do dumb things from time to time, and that's OK, so long as it doesn't get ridiculous. Which is hasn't. And I am glad that he's obviously not totally fucked off me ... although him being totally fucked off would probably make it easier to not see him, it's also just not nice having someone being fucked off with you.

I am wondering about suggesting Zoom drinks over the weekend, to see how that goes. We're all likely to be housebound for a while yet, so maybe that'll be a nice distraction for everyone.

 

[AnnieLit]

I am wondering about suggesting Zoom drinks over the weekend, to see how that goes. We're all likely to be housebound for a while yet, so maybe that'll be a nice distraction for everyone.

Maybe ask them to use two different devices and be in separate rooms for this? Just to make it a bit more level for everybody. Plus this way if he takes over all the talking on their end you will know that this is how it's going to be, that it is not just the result of the mic being closer to his side.

 

[KimGordon67]

Maybe ask them to use two different devices and be in separate rooms for this? Just to make it a bit more level for everybody. Plus this way if he takes over all the talking on their end you will know that this is how it's going to be, that it is not just the result of the mic being closer to his side.

I don't think the messaging thing is a result of him taking things over ... it just worked out like that organically, and I'm sure if I say something, they'll just open up a group chat. Also, I feel like if I'm going to get involved with them as a couple, I need to see how they work as a couple ... and if we're going to meet up remotely, I'd like it to be as natural as possible ... asking people to be in different rooms in the same house would just feel a bit weird.

 

[KimGordon67]

So yes, we're back in total lockdown at the moment, which will probably seem laughable to those elsewhere, because we currently have a total of 51 active cases in a population of 5 million-ish ... but this is also how we've managed to remain relatively fine for the last year. I still can't quite work out what the end game of all this ... I guess the important next step is for everyone to get vaccinated. About 20% of the population are now fully immunised, and I can get my first jab now, if I can just book an appointment ... for reasons that I can't quite work out, our local medical centre isn't doing vaccinations at the moment, so I have to drive half an hour to the nearest place that does, which seems a bit counter-productive when we're meant to be staying home.

I was a bit restless the other night and reinstated my slightly inappropriate Tinder profile. And I've matched with a guy that was a bit unexpected ... not really my usual type at all (like, he has a home gym and looks like someone who works out a LOT, he's pretty right politically, and other stuff), but we seem to be getting on weirdly well. And as he pointed out, does it matter if we vote in opposite directions if we're just wanting something casual ... so we'll see how that goes. He's VERY frisky. And I think possibly quite good in bed. Fingers crossed for that ... it's been three months now, and likely to be longer, and I really could do with getting laid when the government says we're allowed to be around other humans again.

The new profile goes like this ... because sometimes it's good to just be a bit direct. (The first line is a reference to guys saying how many women on Tinder have 'shopping lists' of criteria that need to fulfilled, like that guys have jobs, own a house, etc ... although I definitely saw a guy's profile that said basically the same thing, also with the requirement that any women he matches with have a degree???)
________________________________

I have a shopping list ...
tequila slammers in a dodgy bar at 1am
excellent kissing
lots of laughing
spending the day in bed
being up front at a loud gig
random bruises
solving the world’s problems (after a bit too much wine)
inappropriate uses for various foods
early morning phone sex
trying new stuff

somewhere in grey area between a random hook up and getting married. Not monogamous.

 

[KimGordon67]

More lockdown.
Covid in my kid's school.
No idea whether I'm going in to work or not next week.

I guess this is all the new normal ... it just took us a while to catch up.

 

[AnnieLit]

More lockdown.
Covid in my kid's school.
No idea whether I'm going in to work or not next week.

I guess this is all the new normal ... it just took us a while to catch up.

Your kid should be fine, children can be carriers, but they rarely get any symptoms besides sleepiness. But it is scary for sure.
My youngest is starting his school year next week, we will see how long that will last.

 

[AnnieLit]

[Deleted duplicate message]

 

[ultramarineblue]

Actually, I have to admit I found some random (although plausible) reason to message him yesterday. There was a relatively amicable short exchange, and then I stopped because I realised it was just silly on my part. He still has to do some work on my house, but that's a few weeks away ... hopefully I'll be totally over him by then. I'm being kind of myself though - I'm obviously not totally over him yet, and I probably will do dumb things from time to time, and that's OK, so long as it doesn't get ridiculous. Which is hasn't. And I am glad that he's obviously not totally fucked off me ... although him being totally fucked off would probably make it easier to not see him, it's also just not nice having someone being fucked off with you.

I am wondering about suggesting Zoom drinks over the weekend, to see how that goes. We're all likely to be housebound for a while yet, so maybe that'll be a nice distraction for everyone.

It can be such a dilemma with easier being one way but liking it to be a different way. Zoom drinks would be fun. I hope that works/worked out.

I'm sorry covid is in your kid's school. It's been pretty widespread here. I hope your kid doesn't get it.

 

[KimGordon67]

It can be such a dilemma with easier being one way but liking it to be a different way. Zoom drinks would be fun. I hope that works/worked out.

I'm sorry covid is in your kid's school. It's been pretty widespread here. I hope your kid doesn't get it.

Yeah ... the time away from the local guy has been good. I'm a bit clearer about what would need to change. I'm sort of thinking that with the lockdown, and how that's curtailed any socialising, he might get in touch to see if I want to form a tiny bubble with him ... should that happen, I'm pretty sure of what I need in order for me to see him again, and those things aren't negotiable.

I'm entirely positive my kid will be fine. He literally just got tested. We're extremely cautious here in terms of defining people as close contacts. We're up to 120ish cases in the community now ... again, that the whole country, although the vast bulk of them are in one city. Still silly numbers compared to overseas, but it'll probably be the biggest outbreak we've had. Hopefully we start to get some certainty soon ... the government are just extending the lockdown by a few days at a time, which is a little painful.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Good luck on the shut down. That's how we started - two weeks, just a few weeks more, maybe by the end of April....fast forward to a year and half and we finally opened back up and....slam right into the summer surge, despite the high levels of vaccination in our county. Be safe. All and all you've all done well there, so keep up the good work. I miss random sex LOL. Now, I feel like I have to run them through a complete medical checklist before an encounter.

"Have you been exposed to anyone with Covid-19 in the last two weeks?"
"Please list all your social contacts in the last two weeks, with context."
"Please validate your vaccination status?"
"Please validate your latest STD test date?"
"Please provide a certified copy of a letter from your psychologist confirming that the pandemic has not made you batshit crazy?"
"Please indicate if your psychological reaction to the pandemic involves any sort of sexual deviance. If you, please describe your deviance description in detail."

 

[KimGordon67]

Good luck on the shut down. That's how we started - two weeks, just a few weeks more, maybe by the end of April....fast forward to a year and half and we finally opened back up and....slam right into the summer surge, despite the high levels of vaccination in our county. Be safe. All and all you've all done well there, so keep up the good work. I miss random sex LOL. Now, I feel like I have to run them through a complete medical checklist before an encounter.

"Have you been exposed to anyone with Covid-19 in the last two weeks?"
"Please list all your social contacts in the last two weeks, with context."
"Please validate your vaccination status?"
"Please validate your latest STD test date?"
"Please provide a certified copy of a letter from your psychologist confirming that the pandemic has not made you batshit crazy?"
"Please indicate if your psychological reaction to the pandemic involves any sort of sexual deviance. If you, please describe your deviance description in detail."

Yeah ... there's the inevitable grumbling now that our strategy hasn't really 'worked' because here we are with Covid in the community again. I feel like some people haven't noticed that we've had almost no deaths. I'm off for my first jab tomorrow morning. We probably won't reach 100% immunisation because of the nutters, but I think we'll get to somewhere around 90%. Vaccination rates increased exponentially as a result of this new outbreak, which I guess is a useful side effect (although they also had just moved to vaxxing the 40+ age group, which might also explain the increase).

I'm pretty much reduced to screening Tinder matches at the moment ... the guy I connected with a few days ago seems to have lost interest. It's such a common pattern ... they're all keen when you first start talking, but then just tail off. While also lamenting that they never seem to connect with anyone. Maybe a bit of patience would help. I matched with another guy yesterday who I spent a lot of time chatting with. I don't know ... he's very cute, and seems cool, but also does a LOT of talking about himself, most of which is interspersed with little factoids that are clearly designed to make him look good. I'll see how it goes - sometimes that sort of talk is just a result of initial nerves, rather than actually being a total dick.

 

[KimGordon67]

Kid's first test result is negative. No surprise, but still good news.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Kid's first test result is negative. No surprise, but still good news.

Good to hear.

 

[ultramarineblue]

Even though I imagine it is frustrating, the way y'all are handling even the smaller number of cases is what is preventing it from spiraling like it has here. Vaccinations have increased here but I know there are still many people uncomfortable with getting it.

I'm glad you know what you non negotiables are. My struggle can be sticking to them.

So glad your kid tested negative.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm glad you know what you non negotiables are. My struggle can be sticking to them.

Well ... yes. It's all very well saying 'these are my non-negotiables' when there isn't a person with a penis and a cheeky smile sitting in front of me and a glass of wine in my hand. I do have a terrible habit of crumbling in that context ... I just need to practice things in my head. Although it's all hypothetical unless he does get in touch.

 

[Paul_Chance]

The Challenge of the Non-Monogamous Life

I very generally divide my sexual encounters in four groupings.

Casual: There are one night (or one weekend, or short term) encounter. The primary driver here is enjoying sex. That is the motive for entering the casual encounter. As far as non-negotiables there, there really aren't any. These are purely phsysical, transactional, encounters. Two ships passing in the night.

Casual, Intermittent: These are the encounters where the primary reason is sex, and the environment/context is such that it is a repeating affair, a series of short term sexual encounters that can stretch across years. My non-negotiables here are simple - not batshit crazy, not more drama than the sexual encounter is worth.

Casual, Committed: Here, for me, is where relationships begin. We've met. We've had good to great sex and we both are interested in taking it to level of actually getting to know each other as people and becoming friends. This one can actually have either starting point - lovers to friends, friends to lovers. (And as you know, that is BG). We started with smoking hot kinky sex and became friends, so we can continue to have smoking hot kinky sex.

Committed: This is the full depth of a relationship, where you become involved more deeply in each others lives and the sex is just part of that wider relationship that contains a deep friendship, love, and caring. Here, I willingly take on the drama of the other persons life as an equal partner. Sometimes you hold them up, sometimes they hold you up. (Here is where SR and SWMNBN are.)

Having lived the non-monogamous life for a couple of decades now, I think it is important to have that separation in the type of encounter is it. So, if you look at the four phases, that is where self-knowledge and self-awareness come into play, especially in two areas: "What do you want" (your inner desire, your goal) and "What is the nature of the relationship". Most heartache, as human beings, in the relationship sphere, comes from a mismatch in what type of relationship each partner wants, often rooted in what type of relationship each partner "thinks" it is.

So for me, the solution has been this - always be open to the casual because that is the wide gateway. But, be so with an understanding that it's going to act as a series of narrowing gates. The vast majority of encounters are going to be casual and casual intermittent. I think you have to go through those gates to find the diamonds. We'd all like to "jump straight to diamonds", but life doesn't work that way. Every now and then you might be walking along and find a diamond in the sand - but usually not. You've got to filter through the sand.

Every encounter has the potential to pass through the narrowing gateways - but most of them won't - and that's okay. Timing has a lot to do with that. So do personality traits. But the real driver is "what do you want"/"what do they want". I am kind of cynical there (or experienced), but it's pretty simple. If what I want is at odds with what they want (in the context of the relationship) then you have to say "great sex, good time, best wishes" and invest your time and energy in the search. I don't think people (especially adults) "change" significantly more than a few times in their life. So, I am open to the possibility they might change at some future date, when the context of their life shifts, but I leave that up to them and don't try and change them. All change begins within a person.

(As a key to Paul's code, LOL, BG stands for "Beach Girl", SR for "Saucy Redhead" (my "pandemic wife" as we often joke, since we closed ourselves in the small social bubble together), and SWMNBN for "She Who Must Not Be Named", with whom I have had a long, deep, committed non-monogamous relationship across many years and many life events and other lovers.)