Kim's poly/kink thread reinvented ...

[KimGordon67]

So ... hmmm. I checked in with the social worker to see if he was still feeling the same way after the weekend (because, you know, sometimes people change their minds after they've had a while to think about things). And now I just feel weirdly confused. We had a talk that was good, but I'm sort of unclear as to what the resolution was.
I *think* that the problem is that he's really looking for something serious, and he feels like if he's seeing me, his options with respect to other people are limited to people who aren't monogamous ... and I *think* that the resolution we reached was that it was OK for us to just have fun together until he meets this hypothetical person, and then I'll just be happy that he's found what he's actually looking for. (Yes, it would have been good if he'd thought about the 'looking for something serious' thing when he swiped right on my profile, which was very clear in terms of me not looking for my next husband ... but oh well.)
But it feels like all the easy back-&-forth messaging we had going on before has died. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. That was sort of part of the fun for me.

In other news, I'm meeting with the young local guy next week. He's super keen ... I'm a bit more wary until we actually meet and we've established that he's still interested then, once he has the reality of what someone in their 50s is like.

 

[Paul_Chance]

So ... hmmm. I checked in with the social worker to see if he was still feeling the same way after the weekend (because, you know, sometimes people change their minds after they've had a while to think about things). And now I just feel weirdly confused. We had a talk that was good, but I'm sort of unclear as to what the resolution was.
I *think* that the problem is that he's really looking for something serious, and he feels like if he's seeing me, his options with respect to other people are limited to people who aren't monogamous ... and I *think* that the resolution we reached was that it was OK for us to just have fun together until he meets this hypothetical person, and then I'll just be happy that he's found what he's actually looking for. (Yes, it would have been good if he'd thought about the 'looking for something serious' thing when he swiped right on my profile, which was very clear in terms of me not looking for my next husband ... but oh well.)
But it feels like all the easy back-&-forth messaging we had going on before has died. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. That was sort of part of the fun for me.

In other news, I'm meeting with the young local guy next week. He's super keen ... I'm a bit more wary until we actually meet and we've established that he's still interested then, once he has the reality of what someone in their 50s is like.

Good luck with the young local! Hope it goes well.

I think that's one of the things very common out there - people who "think" they're down for a non-monogamous relationship, but haven't really thought it through. They intellectually and theoretically like the idea, start the relationship, and then confront the feelings and details and then want the relationship to be monogamous. Or, when confronted with the reality of it suddenly get cold feet.

I equate it with the lion effect. It's one thing to think and say "I'm brave, I can handle a lion encounter, I know what to do." and then it's a whole other thing to turn a corner in the trial and there's the lion.

(PS - it's good to be a lion.)

 

[KimGordon67]

Good luck with the young local! Hope it goes well.

I think that's one of the things very common out there - people who "think" they're down for a non-monogamous relationship, but haven't really thought it through. They intellectually and theoretically like the idea, start the relationship, and then confront the feelings and details and then want the relationship to be monogamous. Or, when confronted with the reality of it suddenly get cold feet.

I equate it with the lion effect. It's one thing to think and say "I'm brave, I can handle a lion encounter, I know what to do." and then it's a whole other thing to turn a corner in the trial and there's the lion.

(PS - it's good to be a lion.)

Weirdly, the problem doesn't seem to be ME not being monogamous, but rather HIM feeling like the whole situation might prevent him from meeting someone that wants a serious relationship. I've really struggle with the logic of this, but I think the problem is that he doesn't want a *casual* relationship, and just chosen to target the non-monogamy thing because, as so often happens, people find it easier to blame problems on the 'different' thing that they're not used to.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Weirdly, the problem doesn't seem to be ME not being monogamous, but rather HIM feeling like the whole situation might prevent him from meeting someone that wants a serious relationship. I've really struggle with the logic of this, but I think the problem is that he doesn't want a *casual* relationship, and just chosen to target the non-monogamy thing because, as so often happens, people find it easier to blame problems on the 'different' thing that they're not used to.

That wouldn't really surprise me at all. I'd also wonder how much of it was self-sabotaging behavior, peripherally related to the performance anxiety. I've encountered enough people over the years who are seeking out a thing or a certain type of relationship, find someone who might work, and then abandon the relationship on a pretext - and then often turn around and say "there are no good ones out there". We can be webs of complexity, as human beings.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Weirdly, the problem doesn't seem to be ME not being monogamous, but rather HIM feeling like the whole situation might prevent him from meeting someone that wants a serious relationship. I've really struggle with the logic of this, but I think the problem is that he doesn't want a *casual* relationship, and just chosen to target the non-monogamy thing because, as so often happens, people find it easier to blame problems on the 'different' thing that they're not used to.

Some of us are not good at casual. Doesn’t mean you can’t do non-monogamy but it can be difficult to impossible to get it to work with those who want it to be casual. It goes the other way too. Someone who would be happy with swinging for example might not be able to handle a partner who wants to have deeper relationships with other partners.

I would guess that his logic is that he would want to keep the relationship with you as it wouldn’t be casual to him. It would still be for you though, so he would still want to keep looking for a more committed relationship. That would mean either being prepared to leave you somewhere down the road or only looking for non-monogamous people of the right kind.
It’s a choice between pain, because he’s not casual about it or building rather high hurdles for his search.
And that’s on top of the fact that he would probably feel insecure at least some of the time because he would feel more ”attached” than you.

That wouldn't really surprise me at all. I'd also wonder how much of it was self-sabotaging behavior, peripherally related to the performance anxiety. I've encountered enough people over the years who are seeking out a thing or a certain type of relationship, find someone who might work, and then abandon the relationship on a pretext - and then often turn around and say "there are no good ones out there". We can be webs of complexity, as human beings.

And then there is the bolded part.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Good luck with the young local! Hope it goes well.

I think that's one of the things very common out there - people who "think" they're down for a non-monogamous relationship, but haven't really thought it through. They intellectually and theoretically like the idea, start the relationship, and then confront the feelings and details and then want the relationship to be monogamous. Or, when confronted with the reality of it suddenly get cold feet.

Been in the splash radius of that more than once. Not fun.

Remembering a post about a guy who badgered his girlfriend into an open relationship because he wanted to fuck around and didn't think she'd be willing/able to get another partner. After initially being reluctant about the whole idea, she took to it like a duck to water. Meanwhile he wasn't getting any, got insecure, and told her that he was revoking the deal. She left him behind.

 

[KimGordon67]

Been in the splash radius of that more than once. Not fun.

Remembering a post about a guy who badgered his girlfriend into an open relationship because he wanted to fuck around and didn't think she'd be willing/able to get another partner. After initially being reluctant about the whole idea, she took to it like a duck to water. Meanwhile he wasn't getting any, got insecure, and told her that he was revoking the deal. She left him behind.

I'm sure that story shouldn't make me laugh.

 

[JDredd711]

Been in the splash radius of that more than once. Not fun.

Remembering a post about a guy who badgered his girlfriend into an open relationship because he wanted to fuck around and didn't think she'd be willing/able to get another partner. After initially being reluctant about the whole idea, she took to it like a duck to water. Meanwhile he wasn't getting any, got insecure, and told her that he was revoking the deal. She left him behind.

I know several couples who had "the lifestyle" bite them in the ass. More succumb to divorce than get stronger in their relationship with it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I know several couples who had "the lifestyle" bite them in the ass. More succumb to divorce than get stronger in their relationship with it.

IME non-monogamous relationships come in several different flavours:

- People who get into non-monogamy because they're comfortable with the idea and find it attractive.
- People who love one another but are sexually very incompatible and need to find other ways to meet their sexual needs.
- People who don't like making decisions (including but not limited to those who want to maximise their options for fucking as many people as possible) and think non-monogamy will help with that.
- People who need to shock/impress others and think bragging about their Exotic Lifestyle is a good way to do that.
- People whose relationships are more about making a political statement than about "I like this person and want to be with them".
- People whose relationship is in trouble and who are casting around for ways to spice it up rather than fix the underlying problems ("relationship broken, add more people").

One of those is a good foundation for non-monogamy, one can sometimes be made to work with a lot of maturity and communication, and the rest are usually destined for disaster.

I do think that a lot of relationships fail shortly after introducing non-monogamy, not because of the non-monogamy, but because they were already on the road to Failsville and non-monogamy was just an unsuccessful attempt to change direction. Almost every time I've seen a polyam relationship fail that's been driven by things that would still have been a major problem for a monogamous relationship.

 

[KimGordon67]

IME non-monogamous relationships come in several different flavours:

- People who get into non-monogamy because they're comfortable with the idea and find it attractive.
- People who love one another but are sexually very incompatible and need to find other ways to meet their sexual needs.
- People who don't like making decisions (including but not limited to those who want to maximise their options for fucking as many people as possible) and think non-monogamy will help with that.
- People who need to shock/impress others and think bragging about their Exotic Lifestyle is a good way to do that.
- People whose relationships are more about making a political statement than about "I like this person and want to be with them".
- People whose relationship is in trouble and who are casting around for ways to spice it up rather than fix the underlying problems ("relationship broken, add more people").

One of those is a good foundation for non-monogamy, one can sometimes be made to work with a lot of maturity and communication, and the rest are usually destined for disaster.

I do think that a lot of relationships fail shortly after introducing non-monogamy, not because of the non-monogamy, but because they were already on the road to Failsville and non-monogamy was just an unsuccessful attempt to change direction. Almost every time I've seen a polyam relationship fail that's been driven by things that would still have been a major problem for a monogamous relationship.

I'd concur with this. When me and my (now ex) husband tried to have a non-monogamous marriage it didn't work at all. But the exercise definitely was an attempt on our part to try and fix a marriage that we were both quite attached to, in spite of all its problems. When we broke up, it wasn't because of the non-monogamous aspect ... we absolutely would have separated otherwise.

As you've noted before Bramble, people can be very quick to point to non-monogamy as the cause of any problems in a non-monogamous relationship. My very recent experience with the social worker is a case in point - he was very explicit that not being monogamous wasn't going to work for him, but when I drilled down a bit into what he was *actually* thinking, the issue was more about our relationship being casual than not being monogamous. He just somehow got the two things tangled up, which I guess isn't unexpected, as 'casual' does usually imply a lack of monogamy.

 

[Hardcane69]

How have you been since, you two have separated long back do you see what went wrong was it lack of communication? Or the two of you just grew apart?

 

[KimGordon67]

How have you been since, you two have separated long back do you see what went wrong was it lack of communication? Or the two of you just grew apart?

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by this question - do you mean why did me and my husband separate?

 

[Paul_Chance]

Bramble's post is spot on.

I've been non-monogamous for a long time and in and out of multiple relationships - but I've never entered a relationship with the promise/expectation of monogamy and then tried to transform it to non-monogamy. For non-monogamous relationship all parties have to WANT non-monogamy. Then you can focus on building the 1,000 other moving parts that make a relationship work without the weight of the expectations/disappointments/betrayals that get tangled up in the concept of sexual fidelity.

Life has a natural flow, natural cycles, and one of the things that helps us to alleviate suffering is that simple truth that is so hard to accept. That degree in life in which we choose to suffer. All suffering originates in desire and there are few engines that drive desire and set expectations like sex. Attune yourself to the natural flows and cycles and you'll find that, at least in the area of sex, that suffering drops away, and you can be in the moment and enjoy life.

 

[KimGordon67]

Bramble's post is spot on.

I've been non-monogamous for a long time and in and out of multiple relationships - but I've never entered a relationship with the promise/expectation of monogamy and then tried to transform it to non-monogamy. For non-monogamous relationship all parties have to WANT non-monogamy. Then you can focus on building the 1,000 other moving parts that make a relationship work without the weight of the expectations/disappointments/betrayals that get tangled up in the concept of sexual fidelity.

Life has a natural flow, natural cycles, and one of the things that helps us to alleviate suffering is that simple truth that is so hard to accept. That degree in life in which we choose to suffer. All suffering originates in desire and there are few engines that drive desire and set expectations like sex. Attune yourself to the natural flows and cycles and you'll find that, at least in the area of sex, that suffering drops away, and you can be in the moment and enjoy life.

Yes, this is probably where I'm going a little off the rails with the social worker ... we might need to have another proper talk about where things are at. I feel like I'm likely to end up in a situation where I'm having to constantly convince him that everything is OK, when is possibly just isn't OK for him.

 

[IrisAlthea]

at least in the area of sex, that suffering drops away,

Don’t break the BDSM forum!

 

[KimGordon67]

Don’t break the BDSM forum!

I'm literally laughing out loud.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Don’t break the BDSM forum!

I'm literally laughing out loud.

Hahaha oh crap! I accidentally broke BDSM! That is funny.

In Buddhism there is a concept called a "dharma gate" - it's a way to contemplate every action you take (which would include BDSM) and discern its nature and most importantly the role it plays in your gradual enlightenment. We encounter thousands of dharma gates a day, each a potential pathway to nirvana.

So far I haven't broken BDSM yet! Done properly (from a Buddhist standpoint) each act of BDSM is a powerful dharma gate that leads us closer to understanding the wants, needs, and desires that motivate us. Heady stuff. Though probably not too sexy to discuss the karmic implications of BDSM.

 

[KimGordon67]

Hahaha oh crap! I accidentally broke BDSM! That is funny.

In Buddhism there is a concept called a "dharma gate" - it's a way to contemplate every action you take (which would include BDSM) and discern its nature and most importantly the role it plays in your gradual enlightenment. We encounter thousands of dharma gates a day, each a potential pathway to nirvana.

So far I haven't broken BDSM yet! Done properly (from a Buddhist standpoint) each act of BDSM is a powerful dharma gate that leads us closer to understanding the wants, needs, and desires that motivate us. Heady stuff. Though probably not too sexy to discuss the karmic implications of BDSM.

I recently decided with relationships (and I guess with everything really), that everyone has a process. From the outside their process often doesn't make much sense - in fact, it often makes little sense to the person themselves. But one just has to go through it. Getting to that point made dealing with the tradie easier - instead of thinking 'I shouldn't feel like this' or 'I definitely shouldn't have done THAT', I just think 'this is my process, and so long as I'm not hurting anyone else, it's fine to just go through that'. I think it's also made me a better friend ... instead of getting all exasperated when friends do obviously dumb-fuck things, I just think 'ok, that's they're process, how can I best just be there for them during that, and when it all goes horribly wrong, which it obviously will'.

I think it's a perspective that works well with the radical honesty. Definitely messaging the tradie late last year and just saying 'look, this is what actually happened from my perspective, and yes, it was all a bit crap, but oh well' (which was way more honest than I'd ever been with him) has helped me actually finally move on. Well, mostly move on.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I'm literally laughing out loud.

Hahaha oh crap! I accidentally broke BDSM! That is funny.

In Buddhism there is a concept called a "dharma gate" - it's a way to contemplate every action you take (which would include BDSM) and discern its nature and most importantly the role it plays in your gradual enlightenment. We encounter thousands of dharma gates a day, each a potential pathway to nirvana.

So far I haven't broken BDSM yet! Done properly (from a Buddhist standpoint) each act of BDSM is a powerful dharma gate that leads us closer to understanding the wants, needs, and desires that motivate us. Heady stuff. Though probably not too sexy to discuss the karmic implications of BDSM.

As for the bolded, there used to be some discussion about things like that, on this board. Sexy or not, it’s certainly relevant and whether you choose to call it karma or something else, I think it is a good idea to think and talk about those implications.

I recently decided with relationships (and I guess with everything really), that everyone has a process. From the outside their process often doesn't make much sense - in fact, it often makes little sense to the person themselves. But one just has to go through it. Getting to that point made dealing with the tradie easier - instead of thinking 'I shouldn't feel like this' or 'I definitely shouldn't have done THAT', I just think 'this is my process, and so long as I'm not hurting anyone else, it's fine to just go through that'. I think it's also made me a better friend ... instead of getting all exasperated when friends do obviously dumb-fuck things, I just think 'ok, that's they're process, how can I best just be there for them during that, and when it all goes horribly wrong, which it obviously will'.

I think it's a perspective that works well with the radical honesty. Definitely messaging the tradie late last year and just saying 'look, this is what actually happened from my perspective, and yes, it was all a bit crap, but oh well' (which was way more honest than I'd ever been with him) has helped me actually finally move on. Well, mostly move on.

I like the ”process” concept.
It sounds a bit like the stages of grief for example, where it helps a lot to recognize what stage a loved one (or you yourself, if you can manage it) is in.

 

[KimGordon67]

I like the ”process” concept.
It sounds a bit like the stages of grief for example, where it helps a lot to recognize what stage a loved one (or you yourself, if you can manage it) is in.

On reflection, I'm not sure this works as a totally all-encompassing concept. I do still think one should try to not repeat behaviour that's clearly damaging, and one should probably support one's friends in that as well. I suppose I assume everyone is being reasonably adult ... boiling someone's bunnies is probably not really excusable as 'just their process'.

 

[Paul_Chance]

On reflection, I'm not sure this works as a totally all-encompassing concept. I do still think one should try to not repeat behaviour that's clearly damaging, and one should probably support one's friends in that as well. I suppose I assume everyone is being reasonably adult ... boiling someone's bunnies is probably not really excusable as 'just their process'.

It's still a useful internal process for dealing with that peculiar set of experiences that arise from our human interconnectness. I tend to explain it as a journey. Everyone in life is on a journey through life, from birth to death. It's a vast, all encompassing, journey. One that journey all kinds of stuff is going to happen. Some of it is going to just be chance in the house of fate. Some it is going to be agency and choice. We've got the ability to influence our own journey through our exercise of agency and choice. We have some smaller ability to influence other people, either by demonstrating the right behavior, in single instances or in repeated action. We have some smaller ability to influence people through mentoring, education, and advice.

People are going to do dumb things - including ourselves. We going to go in the wrong direction, we're going to make bad choices, we're going to willfully decide to do stupid shit. That is what makes us so beautifully and tragically human.

In terms our "our life" we've got the direct ability, through our agency and choices, to influence the course of our journey through life, but in terms of other people lives, the best we can do is be a good example and give good advice (and sometimes, rarely, physically and directly intervene to aid them on their journey). Understanding that is one of the keys to helping the eliminate the suffering of others is compassion. Don't take their suffering on. But, be compassionate to their journey.

 

[KimGordon67]

It's still a useful internal process for dealing with that peculiar set of experiences that arise from our human interconnectness. I tend to explain it as a journey. Everyone in life is on a journey through life, from birth to death. It's a vast, all encompassing, journey. One that journey all kinds of stuff is going to happen. Some of it is going to just be chance in the house of fate. Some it is going to be agency and choice. We've got the ability to influence our own journey through our exercise of agency and choice. We have some smaller ability to influence other people, either by demonstrating the right behavior, in single instances or in repeated action. We have some smaller ability to influence people through mentoring, education, and advice.

People are going to do dumb things - including ourselves. We going to go in the wrong direction, we're going to make bad choices, we're going to willfully decide to do stupid shit. That is what makes us so beautifully and tragically human.

In terms our "our life" we've got the direct ability, through our agency and choices, to influence the course of our journey through life, but in terms of other people lives, the best we can do is be a good example and give good advice (and sometimes, rarely, physically and directly intervene to aid them on their journey). Understanding that is one of the keys to helping the eliminate the suffering of others is compassion. Don't take their suffering on. But, be compassionate to their journey.

Now I've got this stuck in my head.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Now I've got this stuck in my head.

Hahaha - apologies if it turns into an ear worm!

 

[KimGordon67]

So in what is my best 'Sex & the City' moments ever, last night I caught up with an old school friend for dinner. We haven't seen each other for something 30 years, although we've been friends on Facebook for a while, and more recently had been bonding a bit over Tinder war stories. I'm in the city for the week, so we decided we should actually have dinner and a couple of drinks. Which was great - so much to talk about, had a lot of laughs, and I think we both feel like we've resumed a great friendship.

BUT it turns out that at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME as I was engaging in regular messaging with the social worker during the last lockdown we had last year, SO WAS SHE!!! Except their's was a bit more intense (phone calls, video chats, some obviously more in depth conversations) ... and, a much bigger except, he told her he wasn't talking to anyone else. It turns out the weird slightly awkward hung over socially distanced date I had with him in October (this was when you could meet friends and family if you were outdoors, and in groups of no more than 10) was LITERALLY the day after she had almost exactly the same date with him ... and two days after that he messaged her to say he didn't a feel a 'spark' ... which is sort of fine, and she was very adult about that ... but then he blocked her on whatever social media platforms they were connecting on.

So THAT was all very interesting. We had a massive laugh about it, and of course plotted all sorts of hilarious ways we could make him feel a bit awkward, none of which will ever happen. She actually said she felt better for knowing what had really happened, because the whole situation had left her feeling quite confused.

But now I'm left with trying to work out how to deal with him. He starts a new job today, and is meant to be getting in touch when he knows what shifts he's working, so we can organise catching up. Things have been a little weird for a while now, so I'm not entirely sure I actually am going to hear from him ... but assuming I do, I need to decide how to approach all this. I'm VERY unhappy that he lied to her, especially given it was completely unnecessary. I'm leaning towards hearing his side of the story, and then maybe suggesting he needs to spend a bit of time thinking about what he's really up to with the whole dating game, and maybe get back to me when he's worked that out ... but even then, I'm not sure that I could really trust him again.

 

[wicked woman]

So in what is my best 'Sex & the City' moments ever, last night I caught up with an old school friend for dinner. We haven't seen each other for something 30 years, although we've been friends on Facebook for a while, and more recently had been bonding a bit over Tinder war stories. I'm in the city for the week, so we decided we should actually have dinner and a couple of drinks. Which was great - so much to talk about, had a lot of laughs, and I think we both feel like we've resumed a great friendship.

BUT it turns out that at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME as I was engaging in regular messaging with the social worker during the last lockdown we had last year, SO WAS SHE!!! Except their's was a bit more intense (phone calls, video chats, some obviously more in depth conversations) ... and, a much bigger except, he told her he wasn't talking to anyone else. It turns out the weird slightly awkward hung over socially distanced date I had with him in October (this was when you could meet friends and family if you were outdoors, and in groups of no more than 10) was LITERALLY the day after she had almost exactly the same date with him ... and two days after that he messaged her to say he didn't a feel a 'spark' ... which is sort of fine, and she was very adult about that ... but then he blocked her on whatever social media platforms they were connecting on.

So THAT was all very interesting. We had a massive laugh about it, and of course plotted all sorts of hilarious ways we could make him feel a bit awkward, none of which will ever happen. She actually said she felt better for knowing what had really happened, because the whole situation had left her feeling quite confused.

But now I'm left with trying to work out how to deal with him. He starts a new job today, and is meant to be getting in touch when he knows what shifts he's working, so we can organise catching up. Things have been a little weird for a while now, so I'm not entirely sure I actually am going to hear from him ... but assuming I do, I need to decide how to approach all this. I'm VERY unhappy that he lied to her, especially given it was completely unnecessary. I'm leaning towards hearing his side of the story, and then maybe suggesting he needs to spend a bit of time thinking about what he's really up to with the whole dating game, and maybe get back to me when he's worked that out ... but even then, I'm not sure that I could really trust him again.

From here, that's hilarious. Maybe not so much from where you're sitting.

As for the part I've put in bold, not sure why the last point doesn't preclude the first part. It's one thing to lie and cheat if you're seeing someone who's monogamous...it's another if the person you're seeing has told you they're polyamorous. To me, the latter speaks even more volume about a person's character. How do you trust someone who lies even when there's no reason to?