Kim's poly/kink thread reinvented ...

[KimGordon67]

From here, that's hilarious. Maybe not so much from where you're sitting.

As for the part I've put in bold, not sure why the last point doesn't preclude the first part. It's one thing to lie and cheat if you're seeing someone who's monogamous...it's another if the person you're seeing has told you they're polyamorous. To me, the latter speaks even more volume about a person's character. How do you trust someone who lies even when there's no reason to?

Technically, it was her he lied to, not me ... but they were only chatting at that point. I think he told her that he wasn't messaging with anyone else when they first moved off Tinder and into Messenger (and we both checked our messenger history - that happened on literally the same day for both of us, and that was when he closed down his Tinder profile). I'm 100% positive that he didn't tell her that he was also messaging me because he wanted to keep his options open.

And trust me, it's definitely hilarious. We both laughed so much last night ... although I suspect the social workers isn't going to be quite so amused by the whole situation. I really wish I could video the conversation to send it to my friend, but there's no way of doing that ethically. The absolutely amazing coincidence of it all is ... well, amazing. I'd even mentioned him to her a short conversation we had a while back, but it was only briefly and there were no identifying points in my message to her.

 

[cascadiabound]

Technically, it was her he lied to, not me ... but they were only chatting at that point. I think he told her that he wasn't messaging with anyone else when they first moved off Tinder and into Messenger (and we both checked our messenger history - that happened on literally the same day for both of us, and that was when he closed down his Tinder profile). I'm 100% positive that he didn't tell her that he was also messaging me because he wanted to keep his options open.

And trust me, it's definitely hilarious. We both laughed so much last night ... although I suspect the social workers isn't going to be quite so amused by the whole situation. I really wish I could video the conversation to send it to my friend, but there's no way of doing that ethically. The absolutely amazing coincidence of it all is ... well, amazing. I'd even mentioned him to her a short conversation we had a while back, but it was only briefly and there were no identifying points in my message to her.

I agree this is hilarious...but the lesson here is obvious... no matter how big you think the world is, it is TOO SMALL to lie to people because it is surprising how often worlds collide and you will be found out.

If he grows up and fesses up, there is a chance he might be able to earn trust over time, but he would be seriously on probation in my book.

good luck navigating this particular sticky wicket.

 

[Paul_Chance]

I definitely agree with Cascadia - the world is a far smaller place than we realize and sometimes that comes up in our dating life!

As for the lie - that's one of the things that makes me say "damn, bet he didn't see that coming".

I've thought about it this way as to what to do going forward though.

First off, in a non-monogamous relations and in the early stages of that relationship - I'd personally just note the lie and move on. I would bring it up with the person, but I'd bring it up light-hearted as a "tip for personal growth" and a "gentle warning shot".

Something like "This happened....and oh, by the way, you don't need to lie to me about this type of thing - that's the whole "non-monogamous" thing."

Then, see where they take it.

 

[KimGordon67]

I definitely agree with Cascadia - the world is a far smaller place than we realize and sometimes that comes up in our dating life!

As for the lie - that's one of the things that makes me say "damn, bet he didn't see that coming".

I've thought about it this way as to what to do going forward though.

First off, in a non-monogamous relations and in the early stages of that relationship - I'd personally just note the lie and move on. I would bring it up with the person, but I'd bring it up light-hearted as a "tip for personal growth" and a "gentle warning shot".

Something like "This happened....and oh, by the way, you don't need to lie to me about this type of thing - that's the whole "non-monogamous" thing."

Then, see where they take it.

The thing is though, he didn't lie to me - it was someone else. In fact, he actually told me recently about lying to another women he was seeing after he finished things with my friend - she apparently asked if he was poly, and he said 'no', even though there was clearly something going on with me at the same time. So all I'm really seeing here is a pattern of dishonesty in the interests of getting what he wants.

Anyway, we finished everything last night. It really came back down to the same stuff ... in spite of the fact that I advertise these things about myself VERY CLEARLY from the get go, he apparently wants something serious and something monogamous. I'm annoyed that I wasted four or five months putting energy into something that was never what he wanted anyway. I literally asked him what he was doing with me, when I was so clearly not what he wants, but he couldn't answer that. In fact, he couldn't answer a lot of questions about what he wants, how he feels, etc. I honestly don't know wtf was up with that - like, if someone says they're looking for their soul mate, or that Nickelback is their favourite band, or that they never want to be cheated on, I just swipe left and keep on moving. If my profile literally said I only want something casual, and in our first conversation I also mentioned that I'm not monogamous, why the hell would he bother continuing talking to me???

I told him he should apologise to my friend for lying to her. He better bloody do that.

The win in the whole situation is that I've reconnected with her, and I think we're going to be great mates.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Sometimes the wins in life sneak in! Glad you reconnected with a friend.

Exploring other people's motivations is always an interesting journey. I've found that most (though not all) have a stew of motivations and they're not really sure or can't express what's there and why.

 

[KimGordon67]

Sometimes the wins in life sneak in! Glad you reconnected with a friend.

Exploring other people's motivations is always an interesting journey. I've found that most (though not all) have a stew of motivations and they're not really sure or can't express what's there and why.

Ah. Yes. I just sent a slightly grumpy message suggesting that if he really wants a serious relationship with someone, he might want to rethink his approach to people a little bit. He responded by telling me he now "regrets ever thinking this was a good idea" ... so yet more stellar avoiding taking any actual responsibility for how his actions affect others.

I give up. That dude needs some serious therapy.

 

[KimGordon67]

So I think I found the lesson that I've learned from all this. Two lessons, actually.

1. I maybe need to be more proactive with people in checking that they're OK with not being monogamous - like, actually enthusiastically OK about it, not just OK under sufferance. This harks back to Bramble's earlier list of how people end up in non-monogamous relationships.

2. The 'ethical' part of ethical non-monogamy is really important to me. I'm super fucked off with this guy for lying to my friend - even more so because yesterday she told me that she was super clear that if he was messaging in the same way with anyone else, she wouldn't continue with him. (I did ask his the other night why he lied to her, and he something like he thought she might stop if she knew he was talking with me as well. So even that was dishonest ... he bloody well KNEW she would stop.) I really hate being caught up in someone else's subterfuge. Admittedly, in this case I didn't even know, and he wasn't really fully aware of how I feel about people lying in these situations, because we hadn't (yet) talked about it.
I've never really been quite sure about how I felt about actually knowing whether or not someone I'm seeing is also seeing anyone else. But now I think I do want to know, if for no other reason than being able to check that the third person is aware of what's going on, and is cool with it all. It kind of sucks that I can't just trust that this is the case, but apparently I can't.

 

[Paul_Chance]

So I think I found the lesson that I've learned from all this. Two lessons, actually.

1. I maybe need to be more proactive with people in checking that they're OK with not being monogamous - like, actually enthusiastically OK about it, not just OK under sufferance. This harks back to Bramble's earlier list of how people end up in non-monogamous relationships.

1. On this one, I would say "absolutely". When you enter the monogamy portion of the relationship building, there are three main answers.

"No, I don't do non-monogamy."
"I'm okay with it and/or willing to try."
"I'm enthusiastically non-monogamous". (High fives all around.)

The relationship will have the best chance is the answer if "enthusiasm".

If the answer is somewhere on the "okay with it" spectrum, then you can "proceed with caution". It can be that they've simply never tried it and get very comfortable with and move to the enthusiasm category, in which case you're kind of the shepherd of their experience with it. Or, it can be that they're intellectually okay with it, but the experience becomes negative for them as expectations arise in the relationship.

If the answer is "no", then you know where you stand and you have to ask yourself some hard questions - namely "is this person/relationship worth switching to monogamy". Sometimes the answer is going to be yes. Sometimes it's going to be no.

 

[KimGordon67]

1. On this one, I would say "absolutely". When you enter the monogamy portion of the relationship building, there are three main answers.

"No, I don't do non-monogamy."
"I'm okay with it and/or willing to try."
"I'm enthusiastically non-monogamous". (High fives all around.)

The relationship will have the best chance is the answer if "enthusiasm".

If the answer is somewhere on the "okay with it" spectrum, then you can "proceed with caution". It can be that they've simply never tried it and get very comfortable with and move to the enthusiasm category, in which case you're kind of the shepherd of their experience with it. Or, it can be that they're intellectually okay with it, but the experience becomes negative for them as expectations arise in the relationship.

If the answer is "no", then you know where you stand and you have to ask yourself some hard questions - namely "is this person/relationship worth switching to monogamy". Sometimes the answer is going to be yes. Sometimes it's going to be no.

Apparently there's also option 2A: "I'm willing to try but I'm not going to put any thought into what it means, do any research, or really consider how my shitty actions might affect others".

I'm obviously still a bit annoyed.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Apparently there's also option 2A: "I'm willing to try but I'm not going to put any thought into what it means, do any research, or really consider how my shitty actions might affect others".

I'm obviously still a bit annoyed.

Yeah, any time you're talking about human beings and sex there is an underlying potential for "I will lie to have sex". Basically, some people will say whatever they think will get them laid in the moment, with zero consideration for the longer term implications/complications.

If you're all about the boom-boom room, then it's just water off a duck. If you're trying to build something more long term, it can be a problem.

 

[KimGordon67]

Yeah, any time you're talking about human beings and sex there is an underlying potential for "I will lie to have sex". Basically, some people will say whatever they think will get them laid in the moment, with zero consideration for the longer term implications/complications.

If you're all about the boom-boom room, then it's just water off a duck. If you're trying to build something more long term, it can be a problem.

That would all be fine if he didn't have significant issues with getting it up, and a lot of anxiety around that, which made it apparently difficult for him to engage in the myriad alternatives that area available.

LOL ... still annoyed.

 

[Paul_Chance]

That would all be fine if he didn't have significant issues with getting it up, and a lot of anxiety around that, which made it apparently difficult for him to engage in the myriad alternatives that area available.

LOL ... still annoyed.

You can try my secret approach! Voodoo dolls!

 

[KimGordon67]

Well, I had a date and that was ... OK. Guy who lives locally (although maybe not for much longer), chef, we met on Tinder and have been to-ing and fro-ing for a while, and finally got it together to meet the other evening. We did have a pretty good evening - sat on the deck of a local restaurant (which unfortunately was not great), eating and drinking in the sun and talking about all sorts of shit. I'd probably find him attractive under normal circumstances, but there were just too many indicators of a chaotic life ... driving an illegal car, living with his aunt because he can't afford anything else, having come home leaving his kids in the US ... theoretically I guess none of this should matter if I'm just wanting something casual, but as a friend said, I also don't want to end up spending all my time talking about the other person's problems. And somehow I've also turned into someone who doesn't want to sleep with guys who smoke. Which seems ridiculous, because it's never bothered me before.

Weirdly, while I was there, the young local guy who's disappeared because he met someone he obviously thought was going to be a keeper message me ... obviously because the girl turned out to not be so great (or she didn't find him so great - one of those things).

 

[Paul_Chance]

Sounds "fruitless, but enjoyable". I've been on enough of those dates over the years. Remember the 1 in 8 rule. Have you reached 8 yet?

 

[KimGordon67]

Sounds "fruitless, but enjoyable". I've been on enough of those dates over the years. Remember the 1 in 8 rule. Have you reached 8 yet?

God ... I have no idea. I'm not even sure when I'd start counting from. Or what would get counted - does weeks of messaging, phone sex, video calls, etc count, or does there have to be a physical date? Maybe I should make a list of all the things (dates, involved messaging, etc) that have happened since I finished with the sociopath.

I am actually fine with 'fruitless' ... I was just talking to a friend who's organised a date with a guy for tomorrow night. She is definitely over-investing for this early in the process. I said 'My only real goal for any first date is to have a good night out - if that's all I want, it makes everything easier'. She tends to feel rejected if it doesn't go any further than that, whereas I just assume guys are doing the same thing I often do - not feeling it, and being honest about that. Which I guess is a form of rejection, but I'd rather be rejected than invest weeks/months in something that was never going to work out.

 

[Paul_Chance]

God ... I have no idea. I'm not even sure when I'd start counting from. Or what would get counted - does weeks of messaging, phone sex, video calls, etc count, or does there have to be a physical date? Maybe I should make a list of all the things (dates, involved messaging, etc) that have happened since I finished with the sociopath.

I am actually fine with 'fruitless' ... I was just talking to a friend who's organised a date with a guy for tomorrow night. She is definitely over-investing for this early in the process. I said 'My only real goal for any first date is to have a good night out - if that's all I want, it makes everything easier'. She tends to feel rejected if it doesn't go any further than that, whereas I just assume guys are doing the same thing I often do - not feeling it, and being honest about that. Which I guess is a form of rejection, but I'd rather be rejected than invest weeks/months in something that was never going to work out.

I count from physically meeting. I'm a firm believer in that elusive concept of "chemistry" that's revealed in non-verbal communication. I think messaging counts, but only as the warm-up. The ability to communicate, to express feelings, thoughts, and concepts in an important component, but people can vary in what they can express in non-physical contexts. Some are great - and then bad in person. Some are bad in other forums, but great in person. So, it's an important part of it, but relatively small and not the best indicator. So, for me, I've found that eight dates or non-date encounters leads to one relationship, on average.

I'm good with fruitless dates (for this purpose meaning "dates that don't lead to a relationship"). As long as both people have fun - they can even turn into good platonic relationships - great person, no chemistry is not uncommon. Or, great person leading an interesting life - but not someone you'd want a longer term sexual relationship with for any of a wide variety of reasons.

 

[KimGordon67]

Kim, I didn't read all 11 pages of this thread, but from the first couple I read I can offer you this...

1) Going your separate ways was for the best - for both of you. Poly is a leap some people simply cannot make - and for those who have, it's nearly impossible to jump back to the other side. You are right that most likely you'd both have been miserable.

2) Get in the gym or start walking. In two or three weeks you'll start feeling some progress. In two or three more you'll start seeing some. Getting happy with your body makes such a difference and will make you feel all sorts of possibilities that you don't think are in reach now.

3) Ignore the moralizers. Can you imagine how stupid someone has to be to try to play the morality cop on a porn website? LOL

lol. Thanks, but this advice is pretty much all redundant now.

 

[KimGordon67]

WTF happened to Lit??? I turn my back for a couple of weeks and it all goes to crap. WHY HAS IT CHANGED??? I can't find anything now. Ugh.

 

[Paul_Chance]

WTF happened to Lit??? I turn my back for a couple of weeks and it all goes to crap. WHY HAS IT CHANGED??? I can't find anything now. Ugh.

It was a shock to most people, but it only takes a day or two to get the hang of it again. Hope you're doing well.

 

[Replicant2018]

WTF happened to Lit??? I turn my back for a couple of weeks and it all goes to crap. WHY HAS IT CHANGED??? I can't find anything now. Ugh.

Completely agree.

 

[AnnieLit]

WTF happened to Lit??? I turn my back for a couple of weeks and it all goes to crap. WHY HAS IT CHANGED??? I can't find anything now. Ugh.

Yep! I think there is a button somewhere to switch to the old design, but I am not sure. I know it was there the first time I saw this nonsense, but I don't remember where it was.

On the plus side we now have the like button!!

 

[KimGordon67]

It was a shock to most people, but it only takes a day or two to get the hang of it again. Hope you're doing well.

I'm good thanks! Have a new new guy who I hope will be entertaining me. We matched on Tinder ages ago, and then the last couple of times I've made new profiles (which I do all the time because I a short attention span), but this latest time we chatted a bit more and then out of the blue he said 'are you on any other 'sites' ... I feel like we've talked elsewhere'. Clearly he's not entirely stupid stupid, because he worked out I was on the swingers site, which was slightly awkward. I ended up feeling a bit exposed, because, you know, the photos on that site are a tiny bit more explicit than my Tinder profile shots (but just with no faces showing). But it did result in us talking more than we had before, and last week we met for lunch in town. Unfortunately I had a 2pm meeting which meant things got cut a bit shorter than we would have liked, but it was a great date - really easy, no awkward silences, a bit of a laughing, and a very promising kiss in the carpark when he walked me out to my car ... so we've been a bit frisky with the messaging, and the plan was that he'd come over here during the day on Friday (he's a sole parent - the child spends school holiday with their mum, but during school time his time is a bit constrained) ... but he's literally just now texted me to say Wednesday might be an option ... I WAS GOING TO DYE MY HAIR ON WEDNESDAY IN PREPARATION FOR FRIDAY. THIS HAS THROWN EVERYTHING OUT!!!

 

[ultramarineblue]

I'm good thanks! Have a new new guy who I hope will be entertaining me. We matched on Tinder ages ago, and then the last couple of times I've made new profiles (which I do all the time because I a short attention span), but this latest time we chatted a bit more and then out of the blue he said 'are you on any other 'sites' ... I feel like we've talked elsewhere'. Clearly he's not entirely stupid stupid, because he worked out I was on the swingers site, which was slightly awkward. I ended up feeling a bit exposed, because, you know, the photos on that site are a tiny bit more explicit than my Tinder profile shots (but just with no faces showing). But it did result in us talking more than we had before, and last week we met for lunch in town. Unfortunately I had a 2pm meeting which meant things got cut a bit shorter than we would have liked, but it was a great date - really easy, no awkward silences, a bit of a laughing, and a very promising kiss in the carpark when he walked me out to my car ... so we've been a bit frisky with the messaging, and the plan was that he'd come over here during the day on Friday (he's a sole parent - the child spends school holiday with their mum, but during school time his time is a bit constrained) ... but he's literally just now texted me to say Wednesday might be an option ... I WAS GOING TO DYE MY HAIR ON WEDNESDAY IN PREPARATION FOR FRIDAY. THIS HAS THROWN EVERYTHING OUT!!!

Fingers crossed everything works out!

 

[Paul_Chance]

Good luck! I love reading "The Semi-Awesome and Totally Weird Tinder Adventures of Kim Gordon". Here's hoping you get a solid little connection and a drama free run! Or at least some really hot sex.

 

[KimGordon67]

Fingers crossed everything works out!

It was great! I'm so happy ... it's been SO LONG since I got properly laid. He did all the right first time things - maintained eye contact while we were fucking (which I've discovered is quite important to me), talked and laughed at various points, checked in a few times to make sure I was all good, made me cum about five times, and only came himself after something like two hours, and then I made sandwiches and we sat in bed eating and drinking beer and talking until he had to bugger off.
I message him after he got home and asked if there any one thing he particularly enjoyed (this is research for me, not looking for affirmation - I like to know what someone enjoys so I can build on that, and he said 'your commitment to sucking my cock'. I feel so fucking affirmed, even though that's not what I was looking for - I put quite a bit of effort into blow jobs (mostly because it's something I really enjoy doing, but also because I know from talking to quite a few guys that they really like a really good blow job).
And I think there's promise for some kinky fuckery in there as well. There was just a couple of moments where I thought 'oh ... hmmm'. I suspect he's quite receptive to trying things ... most people who are really into sex are pretty open. And he's definitely really into sex - like the actual sex, not just as a means to an end.
HUZZAH!!!