Most Boring Rapture ever!

[evesdream]

It seems Christians are big on feeling persecuted. This is the filter we're working through here.
Through a glass.
Darkly.

 

[daus42]

Of course, there's nothing at all gullible about believing the burning bush story or the virgin birth thing.

I love bushes that burn

 

[rekane]

I love bushes that burn

I think that might entirely depend on what is causing the burn.
Some burning bushes might not be at all pleasant.

 

[DVS]

Now, I like mediating things like this because it pertains to my job so I'm going to butt the fuck in and mediate (mediate the validity of ideas, and not to maintain relationships).

Firstly, your thread title. Most boring rapture, it wasn't even a rapture. That indicates to me the rapture-believers were misguided, plus the touch of ridiculosity/jest that their ideas deserve.




Again, very least this is jest, at the expense of the misguided rapture-advertising-people.

I couldn't agree that JMohegan was sanctimonious, projecting or childish (boobiehead), and the primary comments about the untold damage done by times past and present



Because



Is not so different from IN VALHALA WE DINE, or 'The world will end yesterday' except that we are now certain that the world did not end yesterday, so YESTERDAY'S rapture-proclaimers are totally disproven, whereas FUTURE rapture proclaimers may well have a point - and in a vacuum of ignorance, they do appear less reliable - if only because we are sure that 'the world will end yesterday' is false.

IN VALHALA WE DINE, or TWO BUSHELS OF NUBILE VIRGIN ATTENDANTS IN MY HEAVENLY PALACE or ASCEND WITH ANGELIC HARPS AS THE EARTH ROILS AND CHURNS

Yesterday's end-of-world-ascend-to-heaven mad prophets are just as reliable as the ones who choose a future date.

The thing is, in the interests of international trade and not killing everyone, some countries have agreed to 'LETS NOT EVEN TALK ABOUT RELIGION OK', and some have removed it from the duties of public servants. Separation of church & state.

In ordinary debate, you discuss evidence. Since this is metaphorical, metaphysical and imaginary, Valhala vs cloud palace vs ??? vs reincarnation is pointlessness of the highest order. You don't have to justify anything about your innermost secret beliefs about what happens after you die.

Finally - poos on the sect who says 'oh theres only 3,000 seats in heaven and everyone else goes into lava pits because my buddies get all the seats ehehehehehehehe. Thats wrong and worse, MEAN. It gets in the way of actually doing good things.

You're a mediator? You're spewing as much indecipherable crap as everybody else in this thread bashing religion. Is that what a mediator does? Bash one side, in favor of the other?

This thread was intended as humor. It had nothing to do with religion of any kind. It had to do with one person's outlandish statement that the world would end on May 21st at 6 PM...precisely. Yes, there were followers who got caught up in this outlandish statement, but that's on them, for listening to and believing this elderly "preacher".

In the U.S., everybody is an adult at the age of 21, and should be able to sink or swim in life. I said in a previous post that these people who followed this idiot should feel lucky that he didn't have them dress in matching track suits and running shoes and eat tainted jello or force them to drink laced cool aid. That was the Heaven's Gate group. There was a space ship waiting for them, behind the Hal-Bopp comet. And the good Reverend Jim Jones had his followers drink laced cool aid effectively killing nearly 1000 people. And the Branch Davidians in Weco? Their belief got them killed, too. So, in the big scheme of things, these people got off easy. They just sacrificed their money.

In case you didn't read the last link that BiBunny posted...

Camping offered no clues about Family Radio's finances Monday, saying he could not estimate how much had been spent advertising his prediction nor how much money the nonprofit had taken in as a result. In 2009, the nonprofit reported in IRS filings that it received $18.3 million in donations, and had assets of more than $104 million, including $34 million in stocks or other publicly traded securities.

$18.3 million in donations? He's got a fair amount of gullible people listening to him, I'd say. But, now he says his calculations were in error. The real day is October 21st. I'm sure some of his followers have finally seen their own little rapture with this new date and choose to no longer follow him. But, our world will always have a enough people seeking someone to follow, as long as there are those who will preach a believable tale.

I see nothing wrong with starting this thread. I think this guy Camping and his followers should expect some humor at their expense. The late night comedians have had a few jokes at the ready, too. Any sane person who thinks he can do or foresee the impossible has got to be a little touched in the head. So, anybody who listens to, and believes his preaching has also got to be...well, gullible keeps coming to mind.

I don't see the reason why some people are trying to make this into a religious bashing thread. It's never the believers bashing the non-believers. It always seems to be the other way around. I guess that might be because the believers have something to believe in. The non-believers are just left out in the cold with nothing. Jealous, maybe?

 

[DVS]

If the individuals who wrote the bible made the whole thing up for personal gain, I would say that the harm caused by their manipulations has extended well beyond the grave, and certainly exceeded anything Harold Camping has ever done. Tithings and inquisitions and wars and witch hunts and whatnot, right down to the homophobia and misguided sanctimony of so many christians today.

Not to mention the countless hours that millions have spent, Sunday mornings in uncomfortable pews.

As for Harold Camping, I've read nothing to indicate that he's any more, or less, manipulative than the Pope or the average Oklahoma preacher. Maybe he sincerely believes what he says. Who knows?

Personally, I don't do the church thing so I haven't experienced that much of the "uncomfortable". But, you also have to understand, if they made the pews too comfy, everybody would fall asleep. Many of them out late Saturday night and didn't get enough sleep. But, I will say they are a devoted group. My church is inside me. No pews are necessary.

 

[JMohegan]

Thank you, DVS. You have summed the problem in a nutshell. [Well, an essay really, but you get my point. ]

The problem is that people who believe in the bible accept all sorts of tales as legitimate. The virgin birth, the walking on water, the 10 commandments handed to Moses by a Divine Being, etc. But from the outside, those tales seem no less "outlandish" (I'm deliberately using your word) than the belief the world would end on May 21st at 6 PM. And people who believe in the bible just can't see or accept that.


"$18.3 million in donations? He's got a fair amount of gullible people listening to him, I'd say."

And I'd ask - DVS, what is the budget of the Baptist church? The Presbyterians? The Catholics? Where does the money come from? And why should someone consider the donors to those organizations any more, or less, gullible than the people who believed the Rapture was coming and tried to help spread the word?


"I don't see the reason why some people are trying to make this into a religious bashing thread. It's never the believers bashing the non-believers."

Fact is, believers bash other believers all the time - including right here, on this thread.


"I think this guy Camping and his followers should expect some humor at their expense."

I think people who actually behave as if they believe what they say they believe deserve a certain measure of respect.

 

[intothewoods]

JM - You're a patient man.

Prague - ohhh I've always wanted to go there. Hmm, living vicariously isn't going so well. I just feel green with envy.

 

[Netzach]

It seems Christians are big on feeling persecuted. This is the filter we're working through here.
Through a glass.
Darkly.

Yes.

I still think a nice Jewish boy working on a Saturday is a shonde so I'm glad I haven't been let down.

I feel bad for people whose worldview depends on a calendar, it's kind of like throwing yourself into the y2K thing but worse. An argument against literalism if there ever was.

Now here's the irony, there's a whole mess of people waiting for messiah with no real fixed sense of when he's going to show, but we're
the assholes for doing that for thousands of years.

 

[Netzach]

To me "no woman of mine is going to show her neck" is as arbitrary and mysterious as the law against pig. Not to single JM out, it just seems that we're pretty down with the arbitrary and mysterious nature of authority and law around here, even when we're not. Right?

To me, not all ideas are equal.

And not all are equally silly, just because they're Biblical. If you think everything we think came from scientific method, that's silly.

This is why, even if you don't believe one word of the Bible literally, it's very useful to actually know what the people around you might be thinking.

Christian equality (and it's there in theory in a huge way) is a good idea. If you think it wasn't the gasoline fueling abolition, you're simply wrong. The ability of Christianity to drive abolitionists simply outweighed its flexibility in justifying slavery with the bible.

Christian Dominion, on the other hand, is another matter.

Jewish law, as in you have to put down plastic runner for your wife to walk on when she has her period, is insane.

Jewish law as in, you should rescue the Torah from a burning building AFTER all the people within or you can take pork derived stuff to save a life, after all other options are off the table, is sane and level.

This is why I make an absolutely impossible submissive if you want shut up and do.

It's also why I tend to make enemies of believers and nonbelievers equally, while not believing myself. At least the bulk of it. Do I think there was a radical socialist dude named Jesus who got in trouble in something AD in Rome, yes. The slim factual roots of these things are interesting. Someone like that must have had a very forceful idea and some great teachings, and it would be cool to know how much of them have been mucked up by his friends and fans from day one.

Do I think that a bunch of canaanites went monotheistic and started kicking ass all over town for a minute till everyone else wanted them to simmer down? Yes. Do I think God talked to and favored them? No, not really. I think their thinking that has been handy in some pretty dark times though.

 

[JMohegan]

JM - You're a patient man.

Prague - ohhh I've always wanted to go there. Hmm, living vicariously isn't going so well. I just feel green with envy.

That trip was actually humbling, in large measure. I realized that my knowledge of Eastern European history is really not what it ought to be. So many statues and references to people and events that I've either never learned about, or forgotten.

I met another guy there, a Brit, on vacation with his family, who told me that their tradition is to pick vacation destinations a year ahead of time, and then spend the year reading up on the history, art, literature, etc., of the place, in preparation.

I thought - wow, that's impressive! And when I said goodbye, I was on my way to tour the castle, the 10 year old daughter cheerily called out, "Don't miss the Window of Defenestration!"

Yes.

I still think a nice Jewish boy working on a Saturday is a shonde so I'm glad I haven't been let down.

I feel bad for people whose worldview depends on a calendar, it's kind of like throwing yourself into the y2K thing but worse. An argument against literalism if there ever was.

Now here's the irony, there's a whole mess of people waiting for messiah with no real fixed sense of when he's going to show, but we're
the assholes for doing that for thousands of years.

*googles shonde* Haha!

How the heck are you, Netzach?

 

[rekane]

It seems Christians are big on feeling persecuted. This is the filter we're working through here.
Through a glass.
Darkly.

Having spent most of my life in a church that prides itself in it's victimhood, I feel a need to comment.
It is considered a "sign" of being righteous if you are persecuted. It is considered a "sign" of possessing the truth if you suffer.

*sigh*
Martyrdom is so burdensome.

I am no longer participating in that belief system. I am so glad to have moved on.

 

[JMohegan]

To me "no woman of mine is going to show her neck" is as arbitrary and mysterious as the law against pig. Not to single JM out, it just seems that we're pretty down with the arbitrary and mysterious nature of authority and law around here, even when we're not. Right?

Actually, it's "cover." A rule against covering. I like to look at the female neck; I find it arousing. Not arbitrary, but I'll give you mysterious!

To be clear - I firmly believe that people have the right to give their allegiance, their time, their treasure, and their devotion, to whatever authority figure they find inspiring, for whatever reason.

Whatever gets people through the night is fine with me... as long as they don't try to impose their mysterious rules on those who have not pledged allegiance.

 

[JMohegan]

To me, not all ideas are equal.

And not all are equally silly, just because they're Biblical. If you think everything we think came from scientific method, that's silly.

I don't know anyone who believes that all ideas in the Bible are equally silly.

Nor do I know anyone who believes that everything we think came from the scientific method.

This passage presents the main pros and cons of the New Testament, as I see them -

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46&version=KJV

Encouraging people to be empathetic, merciful, and kind = good

Inventing the notion of eternal damnation for the unrighteous = not

 

[Netzach]

That trip was actually humbling, in large measure. I realized that my knowledge of Eastern European history is really not what it ought to be. So many statues and references to people and events that I've either never learned about, or forgotten.

I met another guy there, a Brit, on vacation with his family, who told me that their tradition is to pick vacation destinations a year ahead of time, and then spend the year reading up on the history, art, literature, etc., of the place, in preparation.

I thought - wow, that's impressive! And when I said goodbye, I was on my way to tour the castle, the 10 year old daughter cheerily called out, "Don't miss the Window of Defenestration!"




*googles shonde* Haha!

How the heck are you, Netzach?

/hijack

really really really balls to the wall busy professionally. Which is good, just - busy.
I have new toys and a new proficiency in audio tinkering. Who knew I'd be doing this?

 

[intothewoods]

To me "no woman of mine is going to show her neck" is as arbitrary and mysterious as the law against pig. Not to single JM out, it just seems that we're pretty down with the arbitrary and mysterious nature of authority and law around here, even when we're not. Right?

To me, not all ideas are equal.

And not all are equally silly, just because they're Biblical. If you think everything we think came from scientific method, that's silly.

This is why, even if you don't believe one word of the Bible literally, it's very useful to actually know what the people around you might be thinking.

Christian equality (and it's there in theory in a huge way) is a good idea. If you think it wasn't the gasoline fueling abolition, you're simply wrong. The ability of Christianity to drive abolitionists simply outweighed its flexibility in justifying slavery with the bible.

Christian Dominion, on the other hand, is another matter.

Jewish law, as in you have to put down plastic runner for your wife to walk on when she has her period, is insane.

Jewish law as in, you should rescue the Torah from a burning building AFTER all the people within or you can take pork derived stuff to save a life, after all other options are off the table, is sane and level.

This is why I make an absolutely impossible submissive if you want shut up and do.

It's also why I tend to make enemies of believers and nonbelievers equally, while not believing myself. At least the bulk of it. Do I think there was a radical socialist dude named Jesus who got in trouble in something AD in Rome, yes. The slim factual roots of these things are interesting. Someone like that must have had a very forceful idea and some great teachings, and it would be cool to know how much of them have been mucked up by his friends and fans from day one.

Do I think that a bunch of canaanites went monotheistic and started kicking ass all over town for a minute till everyone else wanted them to simmer down? Yes. Do I think God talked to and favored them? No, not really. I think their thinking that has been handy in some pretty dark times though.

Definitely no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think everyone should read the OT and NT (and other holy books too) -- great ideas, hugely influential in western culture, philosophy, etc. You're right to point out that there's a reason these ideas have held up as long as they have, and it's not because religious folks are feeble minded sheep.

What struck me was watching ministers and religious leaders on CNN having a good laugh about the rapture that wasn't, when unless they've all come out and said hey, great ideas and metaphor ONLY, they're also representing that some pretty fantastical stuff is true.

That trip was actually humbling, in large measure. I realized that my knowledge of Eastern European history is really not what it ought to be. So many statues and references to people and events that I've either never learned about, or forgotten.

I met another guy there, a Brit, on vacation with his family, who told me that their tradition is to pick vacation destinations a year ahead of time, and then spend the year reading up on the history, art, literature, etc., of the place, in preparation.

I thought - wow, that's impressive! And when I said goodbye, I was on my way to tour the castle, the 10 year old daughter cheerily called out, "Don't miss the Window of Defenestration!"

Funny, I was just comforting myself by thinking, well, we could start planning something great now...So many places, so little time. But I digress...love that 10 year old btw!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Definitely no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think everyone should read the OT and NT (and other holy books too) -- great ideas, hugely influential in western culture, philosophy, etc. You're right to point out that there's a reason these ideas have held up as long as they have, and it's not because religious folks are feeble minded sheep.

Those ideas are not exclusive to the bible, they are pretty much universal in every religion. The belief that they are Christian property is a good example of the feebleminded sheepiness of religious folk.

 

[DVS]

Thank you, DVS. You have summed the problem in a nutshell. [Well, an essay really, but you get my point. ]

The problem is that people who believe in the bible accept all sorts of tales as legitimate. The virgin birth, the walking on water, the 10 commandments handed to Moses by a Divine Being, etc. But from the outside, those tales seem no less "outlandish" (I'm deliberately using your word) than the belief the world would end on May 21st at 6 PM. And people who believe in the bible just can't see or accept that.


"$18.3 million in donations? He's got a fair amount of gullible people listening to him, I'd say."

And I'd ask - DVS, what is the budget of the Baptist church? The Presbyterians? The Catholics? Where does the money come from? And why should someone consider the donors to those organizations any more, or less, gullible than the people who believed the Rapture was coming and tried to help spread the word?


"I don't see the reason why some people are trying to make this into a religious bashing thread. It's never the believers bashing the non-believers."

Fact is, believers bash other believers all the time - including right here, on this thread.


"I think this guy Camping and his followers should expect some humor at their expense."

I think people who actually behave as if they believe what they say they believe deserve a certain measure of respect.

You're preachin' to the choir, dude. I'm not a church going guy. I've already said that. I don't believe in the organized church thing and I don't donate to any church. In most cases, regulars are expected to "give" a certain percentage of their income to the church of their choice. That's one of the reasons I don't care for the organized church.

The Bible? I don't know who wrote it or if they even had God's intentions in mind when they did. I know God didn't write it. While I won't say someone who believes it as God's word is wrong, I just believe what I choose to. Some of what I believe isn't in the Bible.

As for Camping and his sheep...I think they're joke fodder, plain and simple. I don't laugh at what his followers believe in, but I do laugh at who they follow. They should know he's an idiot by now. Once bitten, twice shy. He's been down this road before, and it seems he's going to go down it again in October. Anyone who follows him and donates money to him after Saturday's non-rapture is misguided at best.

 

[JMohegan]

Definitely no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think everyone should read the OT and NT (and other holy books too) -- great ideas, hugely influential in western culture, philosophy, etc. You're right to point out that there's a reason these ideas have held up as long as they have, and it's not because religious folks are feeble minded sheep.

Ancient Greek civilization had an enormous influence on western culture, philosophy, etc., as well.

Hopefully no one will get their panties in a twist if I say I find the greek gods silly in large measure.

Funny, I was just comforting myself by thinking, well, we could start planning something great now...So many places, so little time. But I digress...love that 10 year old btw!

She was adorable.

 

[DVS]

I love bushes that burn

I burned some bushes just the other day. Yes, I had the proper papers from the fire marshal.

 

[JMohegan]

/hijack

really really really balls to the wall busy professionally. Which is good, just - busy.
I have new toys and a new proficiency in audio tinkering. Who knew I'd be doing this?

I had you pegged as a visual artist. Painting, jewelry, whatnot. But branching out is good!

Glad to hear you're busy, and happily so.

 

[JMohegan]

Definitely no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think everyone should read the OT and NT (and other holy books too) -- great ideas, hugely influential in western culture, philosophy, etc. You're right to point out that there's a reason these ideas have held up as long as they have, and it's not because religious folks are feeble minded sheep.

Those ideas are not exclusive to the bible, they are pretty much universal in every religion. The belief that they are Christian property is a good example of the feebleminded sheepiness of religious folk.

I think the ideas "have held up as long as they have" because they are HUMAN ideas. Not distinct to one religion or even all religions collectively. Human ideas, borne of an innate capacity for empathy and pragmatism.

Organized religion is simply a vehicle for recording and harnessing those ideas, to whatever purpose and advantage the recorders and harnessers see fit.

I do not believe that all religious folks are feeble minded sheep. But I agree with Stella, that religion's claim of ownership over decency, morality, and good character, is absurd.

 

[Netzach]

Those ideas are not exclusive to the bible, they are pretty much universal in every religion. The belief that they are Christian property is a good example of the feebleminded sheepiness of religious folk.

That might be, but the Sikhs and Hindus were not in the US in 1860 influencing our ideas about plurality. Christian nation ideologically no, Christian nation historically, yeah, like it or not.

 

[JMohegan]

That might be, but the Sikhs and Hindus were not in the US in 1860 influencing our ideas about plurality. Christian nation ideologically no, Christian nation historically, yeah, like it or not.

The question I have is this. If the bible was wielded to defend slavery on the one hand, and oppose it on the other, what does that tell us about mid-19th century Christianity overall?

And (the easier question): Did anti-slavery religious fervor really start the Civil War, fill the ranks of the Union Army, and thereby result in victory for the North and the resulting emancipation? I think the clear answer to that question is "no."

 

[satindesire]

I dont feel contemptuous towards you, I am angry that the individuals who wrote the bible cause a fuckload of trouble that endures to this day.

We are saying the same thing, the only difference being the different "prophets" discussed.

Clearly, criticizing a religious prophet is ok with you. So why your hostility in response to my remarks? The only thing I can come up with is that you are tremendously insulted at being compared to the followers of Harold Camping. But the comparison would only be insulting if you found them worthy of insult; otherwise you would be honored, or at the very least neutral about it.



eta: ImOnIt - thanks, and I heard that about the "orchestrator man" too. Very interesting fellow. And what I think some people of faith have a hard time understanding is that, to a non-religious person, "the Rapture will come on May 21st, 2011" sounds no more or less goofy than the notion of the virgin birth. The only difference I can see is not one of plausibility, but provability instead.

No, I wasn't insulted by you comparing me to anyone else of any other faith, I was insulted by the fact that you come into every single thread that you see in the BDSM forums that might even smack of religiousness to question the people who are religious about the validity of their faith.

For the sake of drama.

No other reason. Just to stir crap up.

Now, valid posters generally speaking, on this board, don't do stuff like that. It makes me wonder about your intentions of being here. You're consistently involved in conversations like this and I find it strange that you're always arguing your point like you're CONVINCED you're gonna change someone's mind and turn them into an enlightened atheist.

I'm just tired of your stubbornness. That's all.

 

[JMohegan]

No, I wasn't insulted by you comparing me to anyone else of any other faith, I was insulted by the fact that you come into every single thread that you see in the BDSM forums that might even smack of religiousness to question the people who are religious about the validity of their faith.

For the sake of drama.

No other reason. Just to stir crap up.

Now, valid posters generally speaking, on this board, don't do stuff like that. It makes me wonder about your intentions of being here. You're consistently involved in conversations like this and I find it strange that you're always arguing your point like you're CONVINCED you're gonna change someone's mind and turn them into an enlightened atheist.

I'm just tired of your stubbornness. That's all.

For the record, I'm agnostic. Not atheist. And have absolutely no delusions of the capacity to change your mind.

But since you claim to know my motives, and dislike them so, I'll remind you, sd... the good lord invented the ignore button for a reason.