Present tense. Do you like it?

[StillStunned]

Obviously this is short form, but I think something like this could be spun out to Literotica length and maybe spiced up if sexyfuntimes are needed:

I walk into the nursing home, sign my name in the visitors' register, head for room 58. Sometimes she's in the dining area or the lounge, but most often she's in her room. I introduce myself.

This was specifically about using present tense with 3P POV.

 

[Britva415]

Yes, Charles Lindbergh will make it across the Atlantic; no, Amelia Earhart will not

No wonder she didn’t make it - she wasn’t even in the right ocean!

 

[old_prof]

My opinion is that “sure, it works, it isn’t breaking anything” is a good-enough reason for an author to use it, but as a reader and critic, it’s ok to recognize that good-enough is all the author has achieved.

Better than good-enough is when the present tense is doing something and its employment was deliberate, thoughtful, necessary and effective. And the reader and critic can tell when there’s more to its reason for being used than merely-good-enough.

I still doesn't get why 1P present has to be justified but 3P past doesn't. Why is one voice inherently justified and the other not?

1P present is at least broadly common if not the dominant voice in current literature and has been widely used for over a century. So why is it a second class citizen who needs to justify its own existence?

That seems be an undertone to everything from you (and some others) that I still have not seen a rationale for.
I keep saying I don't get the sentiment and keep hearing that there is an uneven playing field inherently that 1P present has to overcome. I don't get why that is.

Actually I did hear some people say that it is more intense and becomes overwhelming to them. I can kind of see that.
I could easily flip the description to say that 3P past leaves the reader more distant, less engaged with the story. Is that a fair characterization?

 

[Bramblethorn]

This was specifically about using present tense with 3P POV.

Whoops, forgot the person, but I think the same kind of thing could be executed in 3P.

 

[StillStunned]

I still doesn't get why 1P present has to be justified but 3P past doesn't. Why is one voice inherently justified and the other not?

1P present is at least broadly common if not the dominant voice in current literature and has been widely used for over a century. So why is it a second class citizen who needs to justify its own existence?

That seems be an undertone to everything from you (and some others) that I still have not seen a rationale for.
I keep saying I don't get the sentiment and keep hearing that there is an uneven playing field inherently that 1P present has to overcome. I don't get why that is.

Actually I did hear some people say that it is more intense and becomes overwhelming to them. I can kind of see that.
I could easily flip the description to say that 3P past leaves the reader more distant, less engaged with the story. Is that a fair characterization?

As I mentioned upthread, a large part of it is probably what many of us were used to during our formative years. 1P present might be common now, but I think most of us are old enough to remember when it was considered a bit of a freak, or a gimmick.

 

[YmaOHyd]

No wonder she didn’t make it - she wasn’t even in the right ocean!

Annoyingly, Amelia Earhart was actually the first woman to fly across the Atlantic, so the post is wrong in two ways!

 

[YmaOHyd]

I still doesn't get why 1P present has to be justified but 3P past doesn't. Why is one voice inherently justified and the other not?

Here's my belief about it. It's based on nothing but my own intuition.

Past tense inherently implies filtering. Because time has passed between the events occurring and the events being relayed to the reader, processing has occurred, meaning that irrelevancies can be ignored or dropped. In present tense, events are relayed simultaneous to their happening, meaning there's no time for that filtering to occur. In a past tense narrative, the narrator, whoever that is, can self-edit. In present tense, especially 1P present, there is no distance between the character, the reader and the story and the reader should be experiencing what the character does exactly as they experience it, including all those little unimportant things that get skipped because they're part of everyday life.

 

[old_prof]

As I mentioned upthread, a large part of it is probably what many of us were used to during our formative years. 1P present might be common now, but I think most of us are old enough to remember when it was considered a bit of a freak, or a gimmick.

I think I did the majority of my fiction reading before you were born, but I actually prefer 1P present, even slightly in reading. My sense of it is as a complete outlier in SF&F, to this day I think, but not that uncommon outside of it even fifty or sixty years ago.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

A 3P present tense story here:

https://archiveofourown.org/works/76522336

 

[Britva415]

I still doesn't get why 1P present has to be justified but 3P past doesn't. Why is one voice inherently justified and the other not?

It’s not about present or past, to me. It’s about framing a narrative. A frame is still nice either way, but 3p narrative without a frame is easier to not-justify because the narrator and the narration are out-of-universe, but a 1p narrator is in-universe, so, the narrative itself is an in-universe event. Framing a present-tense narration is harder than framing past-tense narration, but again, it’s not about the tense or the voice (person), it’s about the frame. I just don’t like when a 1p manuscript (well, its author) utterly ignores that, totally fails to even perceive the act of narration as remotely relevant to the story’s content, events and point of view.

Do I mentally allow them to get away with it? Usually. Do I have to regard it as not-an-issue-at-all? No, no I don’t. I’m not even saying “you have to do this:” All I ever say is that spending at least a little time thinking about it during the authoring effort yields a better quality story than having no awareness of the matter at all. Making some amount of effort in this regard, even minorly, cannot possibly affect the story negatively.

 

[Britva415]

I could easily flip the description to say that 3P past leaves the reader more distant, less engaged with the story. Is that a fair characterization?

Sure, but some stories don’t need the reader to “be that close,” some “distance” is fine.

Also we really need to recognize that “distance/closeness”can refer to engagement but often instead refers to something else, something technical which isn't talking about the reader's experience of immersion or of identifying with the characters.

It is not automatically true that feeling and/or experiencing engagement with a story depends on feeling/sensing one’s own closeness to the events being narrated. Many extremely compelling page-turners are 3p, not-even-close narrative voice.

 

[LisaMayTurner]

Yes, I do like it.

 

[StillStunned]

Here's my belief about it. It's based on nothing but my own intuition.

Past tense inherently implies filtering. Because time has passed between the events occurring and the events being relayed to the reader, processing has occurred, meaning that irrelevancies can be ignored or dropped. In present tense, events are relayed simultaneous to their happening, meaning there's no time for that filtering to occur. In a past tense narrative, the narrator, whoever that is, can self-edit. In present tense, especially 1P present, there is no distance between the character, the reader and the story and the reader should be experiencing what the character does exactly as they experience it, including all those little unimportant things that get skipped because they're part of everyday life.

Not necessarily. I wrote Into The Night in the present tense (albeit in 2P), and it skips the boring bits quite easily.

 

[old_prof]

It’s not about present or past, to me.

I think you have a good point to make, but I’m too dense to get it. I was going to take this offline so I don’t bore everyone else but you have messages blocked. I was going to ask you to read my very first story, The Final Bet. It’s short and I apologize because it’s not very well written: it was my very first piece of fiction in fifty years. Does it need framing?

 

[Britva415]

you have messages blocked

Unblocked you, you're welcome to PM

 

[SimonDoom]

It’s not about present or past, to me. It’s about framing a narrative. A frame is still nice either way, but 3p narrative without a frame is easier to not-justify because the narrator and the narration are out-of-universe, but a 1p narrator is in-universe, so, the narrative itself is an in-universe event. Framing a present-tense narration is harder than framing past-tense narration, but again, it’s not about the tense or the voice (person), it’s about the frame. I just don’t like when a 1p manuscript (well, its author) utterly ignores that, totally fails to even perceive the act of narration as remotely relevant to the story’s content, events and point of view.

Do I mentally allow them to get away with it? Usually. Do I have to regard it as not-an-issue-at-all? No, no I don’t. I’m not even saying “you have to do this:” All I ever say is that spending at least a little time thinking about it during the authoring effort yields a better quality story than having no awareness of the matter at all. Making some amount of effort in this regard, even minorly, cannot possibly affect the story negatively.

I generally agree with you on this point, because when I read, one part of my reading process is to ask myself, How did this narrative come about? What is the explanation for its existence?

This habit gives rise to the problem I have with multiple 1 p POV stories, because the set-up often seems contrived to me. How is it that multiple persons' POV narratives are being shoe-horned together?

Past tense (to me, I emphasize) generally creates a greater sense of authenticity. The narrator is sitting at a campfire telling a story to a group of people about something that happened to him, or to someone else, in the past, and that temporal distance lends credence to the idea that there's a story to tell and that the narrator is in a position to tell it.

If the narrator tells a story at a campfire to a group of people in present tense, it creates a bit of a puzzle: how can the narrator be telling me a story that purports to be happening right now when in fact he's sitting at a campfire? Past tense dispenses with this problem.

It's a minor problem, I think. I think in practice, if a story is told well, it can immerse people regardless of things like POV and tense. I also think that the framing issue is much LESS of a problem when it's a short erotic story. Readers don't require as much framing. Readers just want to be sucked into the moment for a story that gives them some sexy pleasure.

I also think that if you say, as an author, well, I never think about these things when I read, and I don't think most people do, either, that's a perfectly legitimate stance to take, and it's probably an accurate assessment of the average, or majority, Lit reader. But it helps to be mindful of all the different things you are doing in your story and how those things might come across to different readers.

 

[Britva415]

I was going to ask you to read my very first story, The Final Bet.

I can't load your stories page. Searching the author index for old_prof brings up your previous username and the links 404

But I will read that and answer your question I guess I'll try searching by title

 

[old_prof]

I can't load your stories page. Searching the author index for old_prof brings up your previous username and the links 404

But I will read that and answer your question I guess I'll try searching by title

Try this link. The final bet

And thank you!

 

[Britva415]

It's a minor problem, I think. I think in practice, if a story is told well, it can immerse people regardless of things like POV and tense. I also think that the framing issue is much LESS of a problem when it's a short erotic story. Readers don't require as much framing. Readers just want to be sucked into the moment for a story that gives them some sexy pleasure.

I agree, and I never judge the overall quality of a story based on this one detail.

A low-quality story typically has many flaws, and this one is almost never the worst one. The inclusion of a frame, OR a narration which proceeds from the author's awareness of a particular frame even if the frame is unstated in the story, cannot make a story worse. Unless the frame itself is utter shit - which is possible Anything can get fucked up by a dEtErMiNeD enough author

 

[StillStunned]

The only thing I can think of just now is to use a mocking/sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek omniscient narrator.

Finished my proper writing for tonight, and I still have half a glass of rum to finish before bedtime. Here goes:


So here’s Eddie. He doesn’t know it yet, but he’s about to have quite the day. The happiest day of his life, looking back, but for now it’s going to feel like the most embarrassing.

He’s on his way to meet someone for drinks. He met Rosa a week ago at a party, and managed to impress her. He has no idea how, looking back. Maybe she was just in the right mood to be impressed. He remembers her laughing at his jokes, and he worries that she’s expecting him to be funny.

Performance anxiety affects people in all kinds of ways. Not just in bed – although Eddie’s experienced that too – but also simple things like trying to pee at a public urinal. Or being funny on command. Eddie’s got a few witticisms lined just in case, but he knows he’ll fluff them if he has to use them. No, best just to let Rosa do as much of the talking as possible.

 

[SimonDoom]

Finished my proper writing for tonight, and I still have half a glass of rum to finish before bedtime. Here goes:


So here’s Eddie. He doesn’t know it yet, but he’s about to have quite the day. The happiest day of his life, looking back, but for now it’s going to feel like the most embarrassing.

He’s on his way to meet someone for drinks. He met Rosa a week ago at a party, and managed to impress her. He has no idea how, looking back. Maybe she was just in the right mood to be impressed. He remembers her laughing at his jokes, and he worries that she’s expecting him to be funny.

Performance anxiety affects people in all kinds of ways. Not just in bed – although Eddie’s experienced that too – but also simple things like trying to pee at a public urinal. Or being funny on command. Eddie’s got a few witticisms lined just in case, but he knows he’ll fluff them if he has to use them. No, best just to let Rosa do as much of the talking as possible.

I think the light casual tone makes it work, but there is a bit of a problem arising in the second sentence. The narrator can see into the future. The narrator knows what will happen to Eddie after the events being narrated, so in some sense the narration must be taking place after the events. That raises the question: why not past tense? It fits more logically with the frame of the narrative.

But since you've started the story with a tone and style that tell the reader, "This is fun, don't take it too seriously," then I think it's OK. If the tone were heavy and serious, I think there would be a problem.

 

[XerXesXu]

how can the narrator be telling me a story that purports to be happening right now when in fact he's sitting at a campfire?

Raconteurs, whether sat around a campfire or a pub, often employ the 'vivid present' at appropriate moments.

It works very well in that context, perhaps less so in writing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Finished my proper writing for tonight, and I still have half a glass of rum to finish before bedtime. Here goes:


So here’s Eddie. He doesn’t know it yet, but he’s about to have quite the day. The happiest day of his life, looking back, but for now it’s going to feel like the most embarrassing.

He’s on his way to meet someone for drinks. He met Rosa a week ago at a party, and managed to impress her. He has no idea how, looking back. Maybe she was just in the right mood to be impressed. He remembers her laughing at his jokes, and he worries that she’s expecting him to be funny.

Performance anxiety affects people in all kinds of ways. Not just in bed – although Eddie’s experienced that too – but also simple things like trying to pee at a public urinal. Or being funny on command. Eddie’s got a few witticisms lined just in case, but he knows he’ll fluff them if he has to use them. No, best just to let Rosa do as much of the talking as possible.

That might be dressed up as present tense, but it's littered with a past tense perspective from the all knowing narrator. It's not in the moment, for me.

2/10 and one point for trying. 3/10 .

 

[Eosphorus]

I still doesn't get why 1P present has to be justified but 3P past doesn't. Why is one voice inherently justified and the other not?

1P present is at least broadly common if not the dominant voice in current literature and has been widely used for over a century. So why is it a second class citizen who needs to justify its own existence?

That seems be an undertone to everything from you (and some others) that I still have not seen a rationale for.
I keep saying I don't get the sentiment and keep hearing that there is an uneven playing field inherently that 1P present has to overcome. I don't get why that is.

Actually I did hear some people say that it is more intense and becomes overwhelming to them. I can kind of see that.
I could easily flip the description to say that 3P past leaves the reader more distant, less engaged with the story. Is that a fair characterization?

Exactly!

As someone who writes stories almost exclusively in the present tense, I thank you. Well said.

 

[Britva415]

That might be dressed up as present tense, but it's littered with a past tense perspective from the all knowing narrator. It's not in the moment, for me.

2/10 and one point for trying. 3/10 .

This happens an awful awful lot in finished present-tense stories, too, not just off-the-cuff "see, I can do it" casual posts. It EVEN happens in 1p stories where the narrator isn't supposed to be all-knowing.

Score accordingly