Queer identities, some insights and questions

[redgarters]

I just wanted to say that it's good to see that we're able to have an actual discussion about this where people are primarily trying to explain and/or understand, in stead of the uninformed shouting match that I usually see online. Thank you all for that, I think that's very much needed right now. It's also important to have trans voices in this conversation, so thanks for that too.

I'm a bi/pan cis man, I have trans family members and friends and I work with the local LGBTQ+ association. In my experience sexuality and gender are both not only a spectrum, but come in a plethora of different combinations. All are valid, none are for others to judge or decide for the persons in question.

With regards to the original questions about how to speak to or about LGBTQ+ people, the basics are quite easy I think. Be kind, treat and talk about people with respect. if you don't know something then don't be afraid to ask politely and be ready to listen and learn. Try to use inclusive language when you can, it's simpler and easier than it sounds at first. Accept that just like you know better than anyone else who you are, so do LGBTQ+ people. In essence, treat people like you'd like people to treat you. It's not that hard.

Now, crossdressing, that's something I know a little about. The majority of crossdressers are cis men. For me it's mostly a blend of kink and expression of identity. But sometimes I just like to waffle about the house in a dress instead of jeans and a t-shirt because it just feels nice, not because of anything sexual or gender related, just a bloke in a dress. I'm absolutely sure of my gender, always have been. Sometimes a dress is just nice clothes, in a world where men's clothes are just so bloody boring.

You mentioned cross dressing. I've seen number as high as 12% - 15% of men cross dress to some degree. If there are eight men in the room with you, look for panty lines. Just saying.

This is absolutely true. But, crossdressing is still one of the things/kinks/sexual behaviours that will get you ridiculed as a man in the cishet world. It's still a reputation destroying thing to be. Not the "correct" way to be a man. It's infuriating. It's a widespread kink, get over it, world.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Now, crossdressing, that's something I know a little about. The majority of crossdressers are cis men. For me it's mostly a blend of kink and expression of identity. But sometimes I just like to waffle about the house in a dress instead of jeans and a t-shirt because it just feels nice, not because of anything sexual or gender related, just a bloke in a dress. I'm absolutely sure of my gender, always have been. Sometimes a dress is just nice clothes, in a world where men's clothes are just so bloody boring.

This is absolutely true. But, crossdressing is still one of the things/kinks/sexual behaviours that will get you ridiculed as a man in the cishet world. It's still a reputation destroying thing to be. Not the "correct" way to be a man. It's infuriating. It's a widespread kink, get over it, world.

So true. I can't help but wonder how many men would wear skirts if they knew how comfortable they are. The Scots are def onto something with the kilts.
Panties are the same. if you fit them correctly, they are so much more comfortable than men's briefs; softer fabric, a little extra support, and the way the lace tickles my butt... mmmmm

For some reason, when I look at the supreme court, it's always Clarence Thomas I think is wearing the panties and garter under his robes...

 

[stickygirl]

There's an excellent academic book that makes a great primer for all things trans, from our place in society, through to language, sex, the media, cross dressing, but above all, feminism. Yes feminism! It was published in 2007 and I learned so much about our people from her: Whipping Girl, by Julia Serano. Her day job is as a research biologist and from memory she transition in her late 20s...?

Good point made by @redgarters - if you don't know how to address someone, just ask discreetly.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I must write out 100 times, discreet is not discrete.

My mnemonic: if the "e"s are separate, it's the version that means "separate".

 

[Bramblethorn]

In situations where I would have referred to "men and women" I became uncertain, and uncharacteristically quiet. Then, in musing about how to create this post, it came to me that most of the people who are in newly more visible groups, are probably still comfortable with "men and women."

Belatedly addressing this part: there are different levels of "comfort".

At one end of the spectrum, I might walk past a church whose sign reads "Genesis 5:2: Male and female He created them". In that kind of context, emphasising that particular quote is a way of dog-whistling "we don't accept the existence of trans or nonbinary people". I expect most trans and NB people (and even quite a few cis people who don't appreciate enforced gender roles) would be uncomfortable in that church.

At the other end of things, a statement like "all genders welcome" tells me that the author accepts the existence of trans/NB people and aims to be welcoming. Unless I have some specific reason to think they're being insincere, that's going to go a long way to put me at ease.

In between, if somebody makes neither of those statements, they're sitting in "unknown" until I get more information. More comfortable than overt hostility, less comfortable than overt acceptance. (This is most of the world, until I get to know them.)

If somebody uses "men and women" in a salutation or whatever, it might be an intentional exclusion of non-binary people as above, or it might just be that this is the standard form they learned some years ago and they haven't had occasion to think about changing it. I wouldn't be assuming the worst unless I have some other reason to do so, but I wouldn't be as comfortable with that as I would with some more open wording.

 

[Britva415]

It's hard. Even people who have been around genderqueer people for years and years still make honest mistakes and encounter the awkwardness of having to stop and think about how to speak gender-neutrally or gender-specifically to someone with an unfamiliar gender presentation or an unknown gender. Or even a known one which the lifetime of linguistic conventions don't accommodate.

If one goes into it with good intentions, it will show. If one is utterly ignorant and doesn't care to make any effort whatsoever, it will show. If someone has bad faith, it will show.

So, just have good intentions and don't worry about it so much.

If you want to become more informed and learn about sensitive areas and practice thinking and acting with good faith, maybe don't push back when someone shows you a blind spot you have.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On questions of gender, I think this is the important thing to remember:

 

[M_K_Babalon]

A few years ago I experienced a dramatic intensification of my appreciation for male physicality. (I'm female.) I had always enjoyed contemplating the differences between the sexes, e.g., how choral groups were so clearly divided, but, as I say, it intensified.

But around the same time that I had this experience, awareness of the wide variety of sexuality became much more of a thing in public conversation.

Being a good liberal (can I say that outside of the politics board?) I took note of the insistence on changing language. In situations where I would have referred to "men and women" I became uncertain, and uncharacteristically quiet. Then, in musing about how to create this post, it came to me that most of the people who are in newly more visible groups, are probably still comfortable with "men and women."

My experiences might be a little atypical because I live in a part of the country, and attend a church, where I bump into people who actually do want to be referred to as they/them. Do any of you AH members identify as they/them?

So my question to you all is, are the insights below well founded?

Gay men and lesbians are not "non-binary." They have an intense appreciation for the difference between the sexes.

Small specific question.... How does cross-dressing fit in this discussion?

Transgender people don't seek to be identified as transgender. They seek to be identified as the gender to which they transition. They have to highlight their transgender identity only to fight back against discrimination.

I'm guessing here that "non-binary" and "gender bending" and "gender fluid" should be carefully separated from the two groups I named above. They should not be allowed to qualify those groups.

What do you think?

Crossdressers can be anything. As far as I'm concerned, there's just men and women. Most folks just wanna be seen as people, the funny thing is; there's not just straight folks to deal with, but infighting too.

 

[Purechicanery]

If someone wants to avoid the potentially alienating 'ladies and gentlemen', a good gender neutral greeting is 'what's up, sluts.'