Queer identities, some insights and questions

[AG31]

I just wanted to say that it's good to see that we're able to have an actual discussion about this where people are primarily trying to explain and/or understand, in stead of the uninformed shouting match that I usually see online. Thank you all for that, I think that's very much needed right now. It's also important to have trans voices in this conversation, so thanks for that too.

We seem to have lost the plot a bit.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

We seem to have lost the plot a bit.

There's no discussion in this thread.

Also, I can't believe that some people missed that sexy keg of TNT I posted.

 

[old_prof]

Early on, there was an amazing amount of useful conversation and education, which has been derailed recently.

Hopefully we can return to being useful.

 

[ColtonWrites]

Early on, there was an amazing amount of useful conversation and education, which has been derailed recently.

Hopefully we can return to being useful.

Early on it seemed like people were listening to everyone's lived experience

 

[MelissaBaby]

Not to me. You're either a man; trans or cis, or you're a woman; trans or cis.

And what if that is not clear, either to you, or to the person in question?

You said:

I said; "...trans or cis..."
So what did you read, by saying the same thing I said, excluding that they/them/those stuff.

"They/them/their" has been standard English in reference to persons of unknown, mixed or indeterminate identity for centuries. Why is it a problem now?

 

[WhoDunIt77]

'Trans people' includes non binary people. Everyone who doesn't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth is by definition trans. Some identify as male, having been assigned female at birth. Others identify as female, having been assigned male at birth. And some identify as neither male nor female - as non-binary. And then there's intersex people as well.
Please don't erase them. This is not a question of what you believe, the fact is these people exist and their experiences are just as real and valid as ours.

Ok, so I have a question related to this so I can get it right in creating the next chapter of Refurbished.

In the story that has just been officially published on here and available for a couple days elsewhere, I have a couple that are going to be going through Nanobot induced body modifications to go from “Husband and Wife” to “Wife and Husband”, basically as follows;

The husband will be transitioning from a male physique competitor style build (think bodybuilder but in board shorts) to more of a “muscle mommy” female body builder.

The wife is going from a lighter weight female body builder to a more serious, but natural male body builder style build and look like a man.

Now the plot twist is that both would be receiving the correct reproductive parts to match their new bodies, but both are also wanting to keep what they were born with, which would technically make them intersex. I started the last story be referring to them as above, “Husband and Wife” and then “He/Him” and “She/Her” respectively then kinda going into “they/them/their” as the go over how they want their new bodies to look after all said and done figuring they are actually planning out this transition and should treat that with the respect that deserves. The changes will take place in my next story and them getting used to their own and each other’s new bodies even more so happen in the story after that. Should the Husband turned Wife now be considered a She since she would appear as such under 95% of the situations they would be in and probably more like 99% for the Wife turned Husband to visually be considered a He?

Please keep in mind, this is a legit question and want to keep they whole process in this story as respectful as possible to these two characters as well as readers that might also be somewhere in their own journey of transition.

 

[ColtonWrites]

Ok, so I have a question related to this so I can get it right in creating the next chapter of Refurbished.

In the story that has just been officially published on here and available for a couple days elsewhere, I have a couple that are going to be going through Nanobot induced body modifications to go from “Husband and Wife” to “Wife and Husband”, basically as follows;

The husband will be transitioning from a male physique competitor style build (think bodybuilder but in board shorts) to more of a “muscle mommy” female body builder.

The wife is going from a lighter weight female body builder to a more serious, but natural male body builder style build and look like a man.

Now the plot twist is that both would be receiving the correct reproductive parts to match their new bodies, but both are also wanting to keep what they were born with, which would technically make them intersex. I started the last story be referring to them as above, “Husband and Wife” and then “He/Him” and “She/Her” respectively then kinda going into “they/them/their” as the go over how they want their new bodies to look after all said and done figuring they are actually planning out this transition and should treat that with the respect that deserves. The changes will take place in my next story and them getting used to their own and each other’s new bodies even more so happen in the story after that. Should the Husband turned Wife now be considered a She since she would appear as such under 95% of the situations they would be in and probably more like 99% for the Wife turned Husband to visually be considered a He?

Please keep in mind, this is a legit question and want to keep they whole process in this story as respectful as possible to these two characters as well as readers that might also be somewhere in their own journey of transition.

If this is a serious question related to identity- its not sexy. The correct pronouns are how each person identifies. If pre-change Husband wants to be Wife and seen as female, then he become she. If he still feels male and is upset by the changes, he is still he. And vice versa.

But this is a fantasy story, not a story about real humans. So probably they switch pronouns as soon as they switch perceived genders physically.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

So you are denying my identity as a non binary person. This is an "ageee to disagree" where i am not interested in continuing to talk to you.

You talked to me first. I'm not arguing with you.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Affirming of trans identity and homosexuality, but refusing to believe that someone might feel like they fall between one of the binaries... What a bizarre and specific hill to die on

It's not. I stated my opinion with no intentions to argue. I'm not dying on that hill.

 

[ColtonWrites]

You talked to me first. I'm not arguing with you.

So when I said I am more than just a man, you dont disagree?

 

[WhoDunIt77]

If this is a serious question related to identity- its not sexy. The correct pronouns are how each person identifies. If pre-change Husband wants to be Wife and seen as female, then he become she. If he still feels male and is upset by the changes, he is still he. And vice versa.

But this is a fantasy story, not a story about real humans. So probably they switch pronouns as soon as they switch perceived genders physically.

My thought was to make sure I had the pronouns correct, especially since both are going into this willingly. The way I wrote the this coming about is that the she finds he has been looking at trans and futanari porn, asks him and he breaks down comes out to her about his feelings of being trans, only for her to admit to him she feels the same about herself. They then find a research project looking to help people like them and it will go from there.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Early on, there was an amazing amount of useful conversation and education, which has been derailed recently.

Hopefully we can return to being useful.

You missed my point.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I don’t care what you consider yourself. Do the same for others.

I'm not running around the city slapping labels on folks and condemning them for whatever they wanna be. I never said what I was, either, for you to not care about it.

 

[old_prof]

You missed my point.

You said:

There's no discussion in this thread.

That was flat out false early on in the thread. There was some good question and answering going on.

I have no idea what your point was beyond being misleading.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

So when I said I am more than just a man, you dont disagree?

I don't know what you are. Cis man, trans man, fem man, androdynous man. You probably said it at some point. You can be a man and give fuckall to the archaic male gender role.

 

[ColtonWrites]

I don't know what you are. Cis man, trans man, fem man, androdynous man. You probably said it at some point. You can be a man and give fuckall to the archaic male gender role.

But I am not a man. I am a nonbinary masculine person. The distinction is important.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You said:


That was flat out false early on in the thread. There was some good question and answering going on.

I have no idea what your point was beyond being misleading.

I see you are becoming more argumentative with time, not just here, but in other topics too. This place brings out some quirks of the character in most of us, I suppose.

Anyway, I stand by what I said. There's no discussion here. There are no opposing views being discussed and arguments offered. Instead, there is a wide set of axioms one is supposed to accept or risk being booed out of the thread. The room for different opinions is tiny, and it encompasses mere details, while the unquestionable truth of the axioms defines everything else.

And the same thing happened all the previous times this topic was started. You can pretend there's an actual discussion here, I don't mind. I'm just doing what I always do - saying my honest opinion out loud. As you may have noticed, a good number of AHers are avoiding this thread, I suspect for those exact reasons. One of the previous times, there were actual insults being thrown at people, hence the TNT keg.

 

[ColtonWrites]

The room for different opinions is tiny, and it encompasses mere details, while the unquestionable truth of the axioms defines everything else.

Maybe. The only axiom I demand to be recognized is that people are who they say they are.

 

[old_prof]

I see you are becoming more argumentative with time, not just here, but in other topics too. This place brings out some quirks of the character in most of us, I suppose.

Anyway, I stand by what I said. There's no discussion here. There are no opposing views being discussed and arguments offered. Instead, there is a wide set of axioms one is supposed to accept or risk being booed out of the thread. The room for different opinions is tiny, and it encompasses mere details, while the unquestionable truth of the axioms defines everything else.

I'm argumentative when people claim as "honest" opinions that conflict with all the people who had already commented on how useful this was. Would you actually concede just wishcasting a problem here if if I pointed out the number of questions and answers that dominated the conversation before two of you seemed to intentionally derail the conversation. Just my honest opinion.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm argumentative when people claim as "honest" opinions that conflict with all the people who had already commented on how useful this was.

Useful in the sense that people who 99% agree about their views work out the remaining 1% according to their own experiences? Sure.

The only person who seemed to disagree about something more fundamental has already been called an asshole, a derailer, a troll, and whatnot, proving my point completely. I don't necessarily agree with his views, but a topic where opposing views get such reactions isn't a discussion, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Not to me. You're either a man; trans or cis, or you're a woman; trans or cis.

Interesting. You seem to be saying that a person can either stay the gender assigned to the genitalia they are born with, or switch. At the same time you seem to be disallowing the transitive state in-between. At what point do I, a trans woman, stop being a man and become a woman? Is dressing and getting good at makeup enough? Are hormones the key? Do I have to have surgery, and if so, which ones or do I have to have all of them?

I'm not making fun of your view. Instead, I'm trying to understand so maybe we can come to a mutual agreement on what this all means. Even non-trans biology lives on a spectrum. There are some very pretty men out there, i.e., David Bowie, Prince, and some very masculine women, i.e., Ellen DeGeneres, Pink(my opinion).
Some of the pretty boys have no desire to be women just like some very masculine men would give anything to be a girl. I'm pretty sure neither Ellen or Pink want to be men. I'm decidedly, and unfortunately more masculine than feminine but have significant gynecomastia to go with my dysphoria. What does that do to my placement?

Part of the issue here is that it's not just physical biology at play. It's how our psychology matches up with those physical attributes. Some dysphoria is so sever it's debilitating. Some is mild enough that getting your nails and hair done in a more androgenous manner may be enough.

I guess what I'm hoping to help you understand is that there is no one size fits all answer to this equation, and, at the same time, get a better grasp of your thinking so perhaps we can both come to a place of understanding and productive discussion. Absolutes are rarely the answer just like name calling rarely helps find understanding.

 

[ElectricBlue]

And the same thing happened all the previous times this topic was started. You can pretend there's an actual discussion here, I don't mind. I'm just doing what I always do - saying my honest opinion out loud. As you may have noticed, a good number of AHers are avoiding this thread, I suspect for those exact reasons. One of the previous times, there were actual insults being thrown at people, hence the TNT keg.

Possibly because most of us don't actually live the trans experience, so any commentary from cis het folk is second hand. I'd rather listen to those that do know.

 

[stickygirl]

Useful in the sense that people who 99% agree about their views work out the remaining 1% according to their own experiences? Sure.

The only person who seemed to disagree about something more fundamental has already been called an asshole, a derailer, a troll, and whatnot, proving my point completely. I don't necessarily agree with his views, but a topic where opposing views get such reactions isn't a discussion, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

Curmudgeonly Set
If you don't like the discussion you claim doesn't exist here, then maybe leave? If you're so convinced there is nothing to discuss but instead switch quickly to name calling, then you really should leave. Cheers bye

I bet you'll claimed you're being 'cancelled' next

 

[AwkwardlySet]

See what I mean?

I haven't even expressed any opposing view on the topic, but merely questioned the quality of such a one-sided "discussion," and I'm already being booed out of the thread. You're proving my whole point wonderfully.

 

[ColtonWrites]

My thought was to make sure I had the pronouns correct, especially since both are going into this willingly. The way I wrote the this coming about is that the she finds he has been looking at trans and futanari porn, asks him and he breaks down comes out to her about his feelings of being trans, only for her to admit to him she feels the same about herself. They then find a research project looking to help people like them and it will go from there.

Oh! Okay, that is really interesting. It doesn't sound like an erotic story, though...