Sarah Palin

[Roxanne Appleby]

Christ.

How much of this dividing nonsense is real and how much has been made up by journalists or writers looking for a sensationalistic story?

Kind of like the excitement about riots at Denver, which turned out only to be overzealous reporters hoping for something to happen.

I still call Bullshit.

Enough, already. Stop the nonsense.

If you don't wish to be part of the solution, fine. At least stop continuing to promote the problem.

Hey Sarah - these are political discussions, and the hallmark of those is that people disagree with each other about matters that by definition are ambiguous. If you are "offended," or take people disagreeing with you personally, and snap back angrily, rudely or uncivilly every time someone does, then why do you even participate in political discussions?

~~~

Maybe what's needed here in addition to the regular political threads are some "ghettos" where left-of-center and right-of-center folks only talk with themselves, and those who on the other side aren't allowed. That's what most of the blogosphere is - only in forums do the two sides come together and bash heads. But maybe there's a place for some "private clubs" in a forum too. I'm not sure. I'm a bit conflicted. It's an idea.

 

[Guest]

Hey Sarah - these are political discussions, and the hallmark of those is that people disagree with each other about matter that by definition are ambiguous. If you are "offended," or take people disagreeing with you personally, and snap back angrily, rudely or uncivilly every time someone does, then why do you even participate in political discussions?

~~~

Maybe what's needed here in addition to the regular political threads are some "ghettos" where left-of-center and right-of-center folks only talk with themselves, and those who on the other side aren't allowed. That's what most of the blogosphere is - only in forums do the two sides come together and bash heads. But maybe there's a place for some "private clubs" in a forum too. I'm not sure. I'm a bit conflicted. It's an idea.

Oh, you've certainly had your share of incivility.

I call bullshit yet again.

An argument is an intellectual process. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Monty Python aside, I'm quite serious.

I do not trust you. I think your argument is for show and the "facts" you present are designed to promote misinformation.

There is no real discourse.

 

[Guest]

With respect Sarahh I wish you would talk to your dad a little more. I'm not a staunch republican but I did belong to the Lion's club, 32nd degree Mason, owned my own business, belonged to at least four different unions and even something as small as the lapel pin has meaning.

I asked a number of people for something other than rhetoric on Obama. Something positive other than his chrisma to counter act what I call the lack of patriotism. I keep hearing words as he speaks about Abortion, gay rights, same health insurance as the senate. Again Sarah, just words. Look at his past accomplishments and tell me which ones you feel make him the candidate to lead this country.

I agree with Rox, that he's on the oppisite side of the divide on even those issues for me. I've been around a long time and watching our country slowly going down the tubes. With Obama, I think we will be making a major error. Can I prove it? Of course not.

I feel for my kids and grandkids. I will close by saying this is my last post on any political thread. I never should have started but whatever happens, happens.

I still believe in God Bless America. I also believe we show it with our actions, flag waving, lapel pins and all. I guess I'm one of the select few who still believe in it.
With respect
DG Hear

Peace to you, DG.

 

[xssve]

In countless ways both implicit and explicit "the left" has created this divide and established which side they're on; Obama is of the left and so the burden is on him to demonstrate that he's not on that "wrong" side. He's given mixed signals, which for many people just confirms a presumption that now comes with his political identity as an extreme liberal. It's not just flag pins - sitting in that church for 20 years doesn't help, to name another item.

Lessee, as long as you're framing: a stagnant economy, rising unemployment, foreclosures, bank failures, rising energy prices with no long term planning to address it, inflation, international political alienation, a resurgence of autocratic governments in Russia, Korea and Iran going nuke, an endless mercenary "war" against pipe bombers fed by out of control deficit spending - who is on the "wrong" side again?

One does not need to choose "sides" in order to form an opinion about an ideology of incompetence.

Maybe what's needed here in addition to the regular political threads are some "ghettos" where left-of-center and right-of-center folks only talk with themselves, and those who on the other side aren't allowed. That's what most of the blogosphere is - only in forums do the two sides come together and bash heads. But maybe there's a place for some "private clubs" in a forum too. I'm not sure. I'm a bit conflicted. It's an idea.

Then again, maybe you could address the evidence and assess the situation in terms of cause and effect instead of dibbling glittering generalities and vapid partisan screed, or if you insist on doing so, taking your lumps like an adult - I do take lying personally, and there's a distinct line between spin and patent untruth.

In this case, the line was firmly established between civil disagreement and policy discussion and divisiveness when the right started branding those that used their right to speak freely to disagree with them "traitors", tantamount to a death threat considering the suspension of habeas corpus, which you also engineered - oh, long about Seven years ago, at least the most recent example, and I fucking well remember it even if you pretend you don't.

In short, divisions are established at the point you start making threats of physical violence, that is not civil.

Guessing Appleby still has me on ignore, lol, so much for "participation".

 

[epiphany65]

With respect Sarahh I wish you would talk to your dad a little more. I'm not a staunch republican but I did belong to the Lion's club, 32nd degree Mason, owned my own business, belonged to at least four different unions..."

In an earlier post you also said "Barack Obama also made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . "

So you're probably not a christian and probably don't care. But for those of us who us who are, it might mean something."

Yet the main requirement to be a Mason is a belief in a supreme being, but not necessarily Christ. I don't understand why it bothers you that The US is no longer a Christian nation (assuming Obama is right) when someone can be Initiated, Passed and Raised with the holy book of his choice on the altar. Your stance on Obama's comment seems contradictory for someone who's a Mason.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Oh, you've certainly had your share of incivility.

I call bullshit yet again.

An argument is an intellectual process. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Monty Python aside, I'm quite serious.

I do not trust you. I think your argument is for show and the "facts" you present are designed to promote misinformation.

There is no real discourse.

You're wrong, and here's why: The thing that defines something as being political is ambiguity. For example, in this instance we're discussing the concept of an internationalist attitude vs. a traditional nationalist one, and whether an individual who none of us know personally has one or the other. Everything about that is inherently ambiguous - there are no "facts" to "call bullshit" on.

Further, believing this divide exists or not believing it are both legitimate viewpoints. You certainly have the right to argue one side or the other with passion and all the rhetorical skills you can command, but you do not have the right to declare that those who disagree do not have a legitimate viewpoint (as opposed to a wrong one). They have just as much right to make their case, and for you to be "offended" or angry at them for doing so is wrong.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EPIPHANY65

I'm not Christian but America is a Christian nation. And we're a Christian nation because much of our national character is Judeo-Christian. Jesus never ceased being a Jew.

That is, much of what passes for religious diversity isnt allowed in America. When the freaks cross the line, the government goes after them. You do not get blanket amnesty from your religion's canons.

 

[epiphany65]

EPIPHANY65

I'm not Christian but America is a Christian nation. And we're a Christian nation because much of our national character is Judeo-Christian. Jesus never ceased being a Jew.

I wasn't disputing that. I'm just curious about how DG Hear reconciles that with belonging to The Lodge.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EPIPHANY65

I understand.

Much of the time I use points others offer or touch on, to illustrate my personal views or make my own points. Think of it like a thief who exploits an unlocked door. Doesnt matter how the door got unlocked.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROXANNE is correct.

Politics is truly the process of resolving ambiguity and paradox within the polity.

 

[rgraham666]

I also believe we show it with our actions, flag waving, lapel pins and all. I guess I'm one of the select few who still believe in it.
With respect
DG Hear

So, are the KKK and the John Birch Society, with their flag waving, lapel pins and all, patriotic American organizations?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Did Palin go to college? What was her major?

What would you rather have in a President? Intelligence or Integrity? Competence or Patriotism?

Just asking.

 

[rgraham666]

Yes. University of Idaho. Major in journalism and minor in poli sci.

Which means she must be a liberal. Only liberals go to higher education. And everyone knows how liberal journalists and political scientists are.

 

[xssve]

You're wrong, and here's why: The thing that defines something as being political is ambiguity. For example, in this instance we're discussing the concept of an internationalist attitude vs. a traditional nationalist one, and whether an individual who none of us know personally has one or the other. Everything about that is inherently ambiguous - there are no "facts" to "call bullshit" on.

Heh, that about says it all. And the difference between lying and bullshit is that with bullshit, you just don't care what the fact are.

Further, believing this divide exists or not believing it are both legitimate viewpoints. You certainly have the right to argue one side or the other with passion and all the rhetorical skills you can command, but you do not have the right to declare that those who disagree do not have a legitimate viewpoint (as opposed to a wrong one). They have just as much right to make their case, and for you to be "offended" or angry at them for doing so is wrong.

A typical conservative trick, pretending to be civil by making disparaging generalities "all liberals are child molesting communists", and then acting aghast when such accusations are taken personally - "why are you attacking me? I didn't say anything to you personally" (typical liberal).

Fuck that, anything you say about amorphous "liberals" you say about me - personally.

Naturally, anything I say about conservatives, applies to you - personally, count on it, but I have to tell you, the disingenuous passive/aggressive feigned offense routine wore thin a long time ago; grow the fuck up.

Conservatives (you) have really drug the level of political discussion in this country down into the gutter, so either quit bitching about it or raise the bar yourself.

 

[Guest]

Did Palin go to college? What was her major?

What would you rather have in a President? Intelligence or Integrity? Competence or Patriotism?

Just asking.

She has a BS from North Idaho College in communications/journalism with a minor in political science. She was also a sports commentator for a time.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

A sheepskin is no guarantee of smarts, common-sense, or practical knowledge. The dummest mother-fuckers I know teach.

I read this last night: When the bubonic plague came to Europe the distinguished perfessers at the University of Paris concluded that a rare allignment of the planets was the culprit.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Heh, that about says it all. And the difference between lying and bullshit is that with bullshit, you just don't care what the fact are.

A typical conservative trick, pretending to be civil by making disparaging generalities "all liberals are child molesting communists", and then acting aghast when such accusations are taken personally - "why are you attacking me? I didn't say anything to you personally" (typical liberal).

Fuck that, anything you say about amorphous "liberals" you say about me - personally.

Naturally, anything I say about conservatives, applies to you - personally, count on it, but I have to tell you, the disingenuous passive/aggressive feigned offense routine wore thin a long time ago; grow the fuck up.

Conservatives (you) have really drug the level of political discussion in this country down into the gutter, so either quit bitching about it or raise the bar yourself.

I'll probably end up putting you on ignore because your words are genuinely offensive, rude and uncivil, but first - I haven't made any statement about whether I believe the traditional nationalist or an internationalist viewpoint is correct.

I do have an opinion, but as I said, everything about the concept is ambiguous, and both positions are perfectly legitimate, with strong, reasonable arguments to support them. I certainly am not angered or "offended" by anyone making the case for the viewpoint contrary to my own, although I may believe them to be wrongheaded in how they weight all the various factors that determine their view.

It is a fact that the internationalist position is not popular politically outside leftist circles, and is a disadvantage for a national politician who holds it. Based on his other political views and associations, frankly I would be surprised if Obama does not have this attitude. I'm also not surprised that his supporters don't want to even talk about it, and get all huffy when someone does. Disappointed, but not surprised.

Too bad - it's going to be discussed, and there's nothing illegitimate about holding the suspicion that this is his attitude, and saying so. If Obama wants to deny having this attitude and make arguments as to why he thinks it's not a correct one, he's free to do so. If he wants to acknowledge having the attitude and make a case for it, more power to him.

 

[Pure]

some very odd things about Sarah Palin and how she's described by the hoorah crowd,

including rox.

let's look at things coolly. alaska, aside from resources, is a poor and underpopulated state.

other than resouces related revenue, it's dependent on federal money; not to put too fine a point on it, but these are transfers, handouts, from richer states to poorer ones.

1) would it not be odd, if someone tried to downsize the state government, in such a place? wouldn't it be odd if a governor wanted to leaved even more of citizen's welfare to the tender mercies of mining and oil companies?

in fact she did not. she had a report on the last attempt to tax oil, and found it was underperforming, so she got a new tax on oil in place, and used the money to subsidize homeowners' heating expenses at more than $1000 per family.

it's rather obvious then, that sarah palin is LESS likely that previous, resource industry corrupted Republicans [previous gov] to expect the resource companies to look to citizens' welfare. she's LESS laissez faire

true to her roots, of course, she treads lightly. she is highly pro business and speaks of them as partners. she treads VERY lightly indeed; she came out publically [and illegally] for nixing a ballot initiative for more extensive controls of the Pebble mining co. and attempt to curtail its pollution of local water.

2) would it not be odd if a governor, giving the dependence on federal money, CUT BACK or refused federal funds for a variety of projects? (on grounds that it's statism??). yes it would.

so in fact, though she curtailed the 'bridge to nowhere' [gravina island, with its tiny population], she's right up there with alaska's consgress people pushing for all manner of fed funding for (presumably necessary) projects.

all of the above is completely at variance with the puffery coming from rox and happy republicans. her economics is NOT particularly conservative: the fact of the matter is that Palin was chosen as a pro lifer and cultural conservative. her [economic] 'conservatism' as a republican, regarding government intervention, taxes, funds, is rather dubious, as several conservative commentators have noticed.

it's a possibly shrewd ploy to interest pro lifers and evangelicals and women in a mc cain ticket, a ticket from which ALL maverick proposals are utterly banned. maybe it will work.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

her economics is NOT particularly conservative: her [economic] 'conservatism' as a republican, regarding government intervention, taxes, funds, is rather dubious, as several conservative commentators have noticed.

This may be true. Here's what I'll be looking for to make my judgement: She was mayor of a small town for six years, and on the council for four. That arena is one where an individual's sincere attitude on taxes and spending can't be hidden - the record will tell the tale.

 

[Pure]

religious right traditions, abstinence etc.

Palin has announced her 17 year old daughter is pregnant:

ST. PAUL, Minn. — John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.

A statement released by the campaign said that Bristol Palin will keep her baby and marry the child's father. Bristol Palin is five months pregnant, and the baby is due in late December.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," they added.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Palin has announced her 17 year old daughter is pregnant:

ST. PAUL, Minn. — John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.

A statement released by the campaign said that Bristol Palin will keep her baby and marry the child's father. Bristol Palin is five months pregnant, and the baby is due in late December.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," they added.

Interesting (politically). There goes the "no sex before marriage" vote?

Interesting side note: It's already in her wikipedia article.

 

[Pure]

palin on abortion and abstinence

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/palin-on-abortion-id-oppo_n_122924.html

Sam Stein, columnist: Palin makes no secret of her abortion views. A member of the group Feminists for Life, she told the Alaska Right to Life Board in 2002 that she "adamantly supported our cause since I first understood, as a child, the atrocity of abortion."

In an Eagle Forum Alaska questionnaire filled out during the 2006 gubernatorial race, Palin again stated that she is against abortion unless a doctor determined that a mother's life would end due to the pregnancy.

"I believe that no matter what mistakes we make as a society," she wrote, "we cannot condone ending an innocent's life."

But it's not just abortion policy that has Democrats up in arms over Palin. In that same 2006 questionnaire, the soon-to-be governor said she would fund abstinence-only education programs in schools. "The explicit sex-ed programs," she added, "will not find my support."

no rape incest exceptions re legal abortions; the Rep'n platform.

abstinence teaching.

i guess if you're a far right Christian evangelical woman, this might be pretty appealing. the choice of palin will help insure that these women come out for McCain; they WERE rather lukewarm and might have sat on their hands in nov.

 

[Guest]

Palin has announced her 17 year old daughter is pregnant:

ST. PAUL, Minn. — John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.

A statement released by the campaign said that Bristol Palin will keep her baby and marry the child's father. Bristol Palin is five months pregnant, and the baby is due in late December.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," they added.

To me, this isn't a huge deal of course, other than sadness that these two kids will be parents at such a young age.

I do think it is interesting at her choice of phrase here.

She said - We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

Her daughter had a choice? According to Palin, abortion is not acceptable, even in cases of rape or incest.

That is worth a wry grin. It's only evil if the other side is doing it, I guess.


I find it very interesting.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh! Its the kiss of death for voters like me. It will hurt McCain because Palin now joins the ranks of America's unplugged soccer moms. John! What were you thinking! Palin! Your kid is an ignorant slut.

 

[DeeZire]

DEEZIRE

Anyone can get a law diploma. Lotsa stupid people are lawyers.

I dont know why it is that people think a law diploma qualifies you to do anything other than chase ambulances. Lawyers cant repair cars, or unstop toilets, or mend broken bones, but we act like a law degree is good for just about anything.

JBJ - it's not the law degree, it's the context of the law degree. OB didn't take his law degree to Wall Street, he took it to the streets of Chicago. This, to me, shows motivation, which could be considered a valid aspect of the qualifications for presidential office.

If a person is profit motivated, and they get into the Whitehouse, we all know what happens next. (Cheney/Halliburton and the Iraq war, anyone?) If, in OB's case, a person is motivated to consider the welfare of the citizens of this country, rather than the CEOs, that could result in a government more in line with the whole 'by the people for the people' concept that's supposed to be the foundation of our democracy.

*****

Back to Palin - her pregnant 17 year-old daughter brings up an interesting question. Does it reflect on Palin's parenting skills, especially her abstinence-only stance on sex education, or do we accept that fact that the actions of a 17 year-old are out of the parents control? I choose the latter, but I suspect if it was OB's underage daughter who was pregnant, he'd be getting shit for it from the cons.