THIS is "oppression" and "discrimination."

[CandiCame]

I will also say that Montgomery's gayness, if true, puts a big fat lie to the constantly stated opinion of Faux News that faggots cannot be good soldiers. Talk about distracting from someone's achievements!

That's pretty damn important.

There's a sterotype that faggots can't be good soldiers? I wondered what that whole "don't ask don't tell" thing was. I'd never heard that; whatwith you know, history and all- Greece esp. That's kinda weird. Is that why you could get out of the army for being gay until recently?

I gotta say though, some of this is just kinda insulting to kids. The guy who wrote the nutcracker is gay? No shit. Michelangelo sucked cock- welcome to the renisaunce- most of this falls under the "dur" catagory- I mean, they don't really teach you about romance in school- at least mine didn't. I mean, they did when it was relevant, like DaVinchi or Cleopatra, but I gotta say, knowing the sexual orientation of generals won't make me remember them any better then not knowing. I have no idea who the civil war guys you all are talking about are, and I aced the hell out of every history class I ever had. Do you know what I remember about he civil war, "Blah blah blah gunpowerd, blah blah blah slavery, blah blah blah states rights, blah blah blah confederate money is worthless, blah blah blah north wins, blah blah blah field trip to a reenactment where I totally broke my friend's leg accidentally, ect." I have no idea who was married, who was single, who was gay, because it was just a tedious subject to get through. Now, I'll remember DaVinchi being tried for sodomy until the day I die, because DaVinchi was cool. He also shared his name with a ninja turtle.

But I can see what people are talking about when they say that only teaching about romance if it's relevant. Trying to teach kids is an uphill battle anyway- I just gave a lecture on the monticello, and one kid in the class connected that it was the same Thomas Jefferson who was involved in the revolution. If something's not on the end of the year test that determines the level of federal funding, then there's no point in trying to cover it, because it's hard enough to get them to pay attention to the things that determine your salary. Teaching sucks. And getting the sexuality of people put on that test is just going to make it something else to memorize. I dunno...

 

[Safe_Bet]

There's a sterotype that faggots can't be good soldiers? I wondered what that whole "don't ask don't tell" thing was. I'd never heard that; whatwith you know, history and all- Greece esp. That's kinda weird. Is that why you could get out of the army for being gay until recently?...

Yeah, and the Stonewall Riots were about this big stone wall... :eyerolls:

I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic, dude. Cuz if you're not and you're representative of what our educational system is putting out we are TOTALLY fucked as a country.

 

[twister947]

She's going to hate this, but I agree with SB. Sorry, it couldn't be helped.

In other news, Bill Maher's riff on this was pretty damn funny...

 

[JNaylor]

There's a sterotype that faggots can't be good soldiers? I wondered what that whole "don't ask don't tell" thing was. I'd never heard that; whatwith you know, history and all- Greece esp. That's kinda weird. Is that why you could get out of the army for being gay until recently?

I gotta say though, some of this is just kinda insulting to kids. The guy who wrote the nutcracker is gay? No shit. Michelangelo sucked cock- welcome to the renisaunce- most of this falls under the "dur" catagory- I mean, they don't really teach you about romance in school- at least mine didn't. I mean, they did when it was relevant, like DaVinchi or Cleopatra, but I gotta say, knowing the sexual orientation of generals won't make me remember them any better then not knowing. I have no idea who the civil war guys you all are talking about are, and I aced the hell out of every history class I ever had. Do you know what I remember about he civil war, "Blah blah blah gunpowerd, blah blah blah slavery, blah blah blah states rights, blah blah blah confederate money is worthless, blah blah blah north wins, blah blah blah field trip to a reenactment where I totally broke my friend's leg accidentally, ect." I have no idea who was married, who was single, who was gay, because it was just a tedious subject to get through. Now, I'll remember DaVinchi being tried for sodomy until the day I die, because DaVinchi was cool. He also shared his name with a ninja turtle.

But I can see what people are talking about when they say that only teaching about romance if it's relevant. Trying to teach kids is an uphill battle anyway- I just gave a lecture on the monticello, and one kid in the class connected that it was the same Thomas Jefferson who was involved in the revolution. If something's not on the end of the year test that determines the level of federal funding, then there's no point in trying to cover it, because it's hard enough to get them to pay attention to the things that determine your salary. Teaching sucks. And getting the sexuality of people put on that test is just going to make it something else to memorize. I dunno...

Montgomerey

 

[CandiCame]

Montgomerey didn't serve during the civil war. He was the field marshall for the british troops during WWII...Your statement is rather shocking considering you "aced" history. Not only were you failed by the education system but now you work in it teaching others..also the statement that you only teach what is on the end of the year test that determines federal funding is pretty sad. I am a college profesor myself. I get students out of high school that are woefully unprepared for college..now I understand why.

I know right? I didn't say it was right, I just said that that was how it is. You're pretty much forced to teach to the test. Your salary is determined by what your students make on the test, and if they don't do well enough, you can lose your license. The entire school system revolves around that one standardized test- in EDF 211 (the teaching class I'm taking now- I only have field experience and subbing- I'm going to art school; teaching is my fallback) they drill that shit into your head. Teach nothing that isn't on the test- it gets in the way of the material they NEED to learn. If it isn't on the test, there's flat out no time for it.

And Ky, where I'm from, does notoriously badly on those tests, and as a result, and good teachers we have move to states, usually Ohio, where the teachers salaries are significantly better. Most people don't want to deal with teaching a bunch of "at risk" students for next to nothing- the harder you have to work, the lower your pay is. It's just a bad system.

My entire point was that I'm "good" at history and I FUCKING SUCK at it. If you can learn just enough to pass the tests, then you'll get an A, whether you actually know anything useful or not. That's just our school system. It's... pretty sad really.

And no, I honestly didn't know that there was a stereotype that gays were bad soldiers; I'm not really that into the whole military scene. I don't think that that knowledge is as common as you seem to think it is. You've got to remember that my generation knows the "don't ask don't tell" act being repealed, not put into place. I'm thinking that that particular stereotype might be one that doesn't stand the test of time. What little we do get from history includes the Greek system of putting lovers on the same unit so that they will fight more fiercely to protect those that they love.

I had heard that you could get out of the draft by being gay, but I assumed it was some kind of homophobic guard against sexual harassment/sexual assault cases. I didn't know it had to do with some kind of "gays are bad at fighting" stereotype.

 

[JNaylor]

I know right? I didn't say it was right, I just said that that was how it is. You're pretty much forced to teach to the test. Your salary is determined by what your students make on the test, and if they don't do well enough, you can lose your license. The entire school system revolves around that one standardized test- in EDF 211 (the teaching class I'm taking now- I only have field experience and subbing- I'm going to art school; teaching is my fallback) they drill that shit into your head. Teach nothing that isn't on the test- it gets in the way of the material they NEED to learn. If it isn't on the test, there's flat out no time for it.

And Ky, where I'm from, does notoriously badly on those tests, and as a result, and good teachers we have move to states, usually Ohio, where the teachers salaries are significantly better. Most people don't want to deal with teaching a bunch of "at risk" students for next to nothing- the harder you have to work, the lower your pay is. It's just a bad system.

My entire point was that I'm "good" at history and I FUCKING SUCK at it. If you can learn just enough to pass the tests, then you'll get an A, whether you actually know anything useful or not. That's just our school system. It's... pretty sad really.

And no, I honestly didn't know that there was a stereotype that gays were bad soldiers; I'm not really that into the whole military scene. I don't think that that knowledge is as common as you seem to think it is. You've got to remember that my generation knows the "don't ask don't tell" act being repealed, not put into place. I'm thinking that that particular stereotype might be one that doesn't stand the test of time. What little we do get from history includes the Greek system of putting lovers on the same unit so that they will fight more fiercely to protect those that they love.

I had heard that you could get out of the draft by being gay, but I assumed it was some kind of homophobic guard against sexual harassment/sexual assault cases. I didn't know it had to do with some kind of "gays are bad at fighting" stereotype.

I see it all the time. Kids getting passed through high school that can barely read or write and have elementary grade level math skills. I think rather than trying to bring those students up they have dumbed down the classes so that they can pass. I have some old text books that I bought from the 1950's that still had some of the students work in them and the stuff was off the charts compared to what's being taught today. My criticism wasn't of you but of the sytem in general.

I have studied military history for well over twenty years. Everything from the Zulu wars in Africa to the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Russo-japanese, Russo-finnish and many others. I have never read anywhere that Gays would not make good soldiers. The argument has always been about unit cohesion, its the same argument for not wanting women in combat. Its not that women can't fight, because clearly they can, its that in a combat situation you need each unit to be banded together as one. If you throw a woman into the mix then there will be turmoil among the ranks as the men vie for her attention by doing stupid things to show off, become overly protective of her or fight amongst each other over her. I am not a military man myself but I work in a predominanlty male industry and if a woman is interjected into the mix things fall apart almost immediately. Its not her fault its the way men behave.

The reason the military did not want gays among the ranks is partly for the protection of the gay men themselves. I am not gay myself but I have seen how gay men are treated and in the military they would not be treated well. Probably less so today than they would have been 20 or 30 years ago. You cannot have that kind of thing going on and have a cohesive fighting unit. Anyone that thinks you can is simply wrong. There may be times it is not a problem but there will be plenty of times that it is. Again its not the gay mans fault but its the way young men behave. And yes you could get out of the draft if you were gay. You would also get booted out if you were caught if you lied about it and got in.

 

[infinity706]

Honestly, though, it's not just guys. I've worked in a predominantly female environment. You can just swap men and women. It might not have been quite as bad 20 or 30 years ago, though. I'm too young to remember, but I've been told it was a lot less socially acceptable for women to chase the guy.

 

[JNaylor]

Honestly, though, it's not just guys. I've worked in a predominantly female environment. You can just swap men and women. It might not have been quite as bad 20 or 30 years ago, though. I'm too young to remember, but I've been told it was a lot less socially acceptable for women to chase the guy.

Yeah women

 

[2wet4words]

good read

I see it all the time. Kids getting passed through high school that can barely read or write and have elementary grade level math skills. I think rather than trying to bring those students up they have dumbed down the classes so that they can pass. I have some old text books that I bought from the 1950's that still had some of the students work in them and the stuff was off the charts compared to what's being taught today. My criticism wasn't of you but of the sytem.

Interesting read for me. I have spent the summer in the UK polishing my dissertation for publication and am returning to the Sttes to begin my academic career. I am fortunate to have been educated at ne of the Seven Sisters and then at a top Eastern university. When I was a TA, I discovered that even Ivy undergrads cannot write expository prose and are woefully ignorant in three areas: economics, politics, and history. I have always thought that this is the result of our media centered culture of sound bites and quick reads (USA Today versus the Washington Post).

On gays in the military: I understand the tactical argument about cohesiveness in the fighting unit and protection for young gay men but think that is in the end a dangerous argument. The young gay man should have the right to chance it, if he so desires. The same arguments have been used to exclude Blacks, Jews, and the Irish from other groups. Discrimination may be an absolute evil with no extenuating arguments. Interested in your view.

LOL, the first post I've done on LIt with two hands. Usually I'm typing with one and the other on my clit.

 

[JNaylor]

Interesting read for me. I have spent the summer in the UK polishing my dissertation for publication and am returning to the Sttes to begin my academic career. I am fortunate to have been educated at ne of the Seven Sisters and then at a top Eastern university. When I was a TA, I discovered that even Ivy undergrads cannot write expository prose and are woefully ignorant in three areas: economics, politics, and history. I have always thought that this is the result of our media centered culture of sound bites and quick reads (USA Today versus the Washington Post).

On gays in the military: I understand the tactical argument about cohesiveness in the fighting unit and protection for young gay men but think that is in the end a dangerous argument. The young gay man should have the right to chance it, if he so desires. The same arguments have been used to exclude Blacks, Jews, and the Irish from other groups. Discrimination may be an absolute evil with no extenuating arguments. Interested in your view.

LOL, the first post I've done on LIt with two hands. Usually I'm typing with one and the other on my clit.

Part of

 

[Safe_Bet]

Part of the problem with our education system today is that there is less focus on reading, writing, math and history and more emphasis on social issues such as global warming, and trying to make the students feel good about themselves. I read better in the second grade than many high school graduates read today. When they arrive in my college classes I have to teach them basic math and writing skills before I can begin teaching the course itself. Yet every student knows all the key talking points about saving the planet. Its going to get much worse before it gets better.

You're showing YOUR own ignorance and biases again, dude.

First of all global warming isn't a social issue it's a scientific and a sociobiological issue. It is based upon hard science. You might not agree with all of the LEARNED researchers and scientist that are working to prevent an environmental apocalypse, but it certainly wasn't "made up" as some sort of feel good thing to teach kids (and no one is asking you to learn or believe anything based solely on some fundie "faith".

Secondly, if you were proposing ADDITIONAL education that would be one thing, but it doesn't appear that you are. Instead you seem to be saying let's create little good sheeple that can read, write and serve their rethugliklan, tea partying, corporate masters better. Gawd let's not make sure they have sufficient education to have a balanced and rounded understanding of sociological and scientific issues cuz then they start asking those pesky questions like "Why can't I be equal?".

 

[Safe_Bet]

I understand your argument on gays in the military and you make some good points. With don't ask don't tell gay men are free to serve as long as they keep it to themselves. So if a gay man wants to serve and risk his life for his country he is free to do so but he may not be openly gay. I think the risk is that you don't want to have male soldiers that are flaming homosexuals and acting feminine in a military environment. The Military is not a place to express your sexuality or to conduct social expieriments. Imagine the effect on the majority of military men if they walked into the barracks and saw two of their buddies doing each other in the ass or sucking each other off. There is no way thats going to go over well for either party and sooner or later, given the opportunity, it would happen.

Like you I am not used to typing with both hands on here either

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, Part II:

Dude, I hate to break it to you but gays are already IN the military. They have been since the beginning. That doing away with a discriminatory policy is suddenly going to make a bunch of gays start fornication is ludicrous. So is your propagation that all gay men are effeminate. What horse shit! Ever hear of Mark Bingham, for example? He was a true American hero who sacrificed himself to save thousands. If you read about him he was anything but a wimpy, effeminate man. iThaca are tens of thousands of brave "macho" gay men (will discuss your misconceptions about macho being better at a later date) who are CURRENT proudly serving their country honorably. How DARE you besmirch their sacrifice and service.

 

[2wet4words]

Why?

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, Part II:

Dude, I hate to break it to you but gays are already IN the military. They have been since the beginning. That doing away with a discriminatory policy is suddenly going to make a bunch of gays start fornication is ludicrous. So is your propagation that all gay men are effeminate. What horse shit! Ever hear of Mark Bingham, for example? He was a true American hero who sacrificed himself to save thousands. If you read about him he was anything but a wimpy, effeminate man. iThaca are tens of thousands of brave "macho" gay men (will discuss your misconceptions about macho being better at a later date) who are CURRENT proudly serving their country honorably. How DARE you besmirch their sacrifice and service.

Why is everything u post so nasty? This isn't the first time I've read off the wall angry posts that don't talk to the point. Tea party? how did tax protest get in here? And how are tea party people corporate? How about temperate intelligent posts without the vitriol?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Why is everything u post so nasty? This isn't the first time I've read off the wall angry posts that don't talk to the point. Tea party? how did tax protest get in here? And how are tea party people corporate? How about temperate intelligent posts without the vitriol?

First thing I'd do is suggest you educate yourself a little bit =

• I was addressing the point, you just didn't get it. You obviously were too busy attacking me.

• you need to do your research on the Tea Party and their corporate sponsors (i.e. people like the Koch Bros. who are rabid anti-environmentalists).

• you also might want to consider your definition of temperate. Last I looked making unfounded baseless allegations, spouting untrue stereotypes and demeaning anyone's service and honor didn't meet that definition.


BTW, good job not addressing ANY of the issues.

 

[JNaylor]

You're showing YOUR own ignorance and biases again, dude.

First of all global warming isn't a social issue it's a scientific and a sociobiological issue. It is based upon hard science. You might not agree with all of the LEARNED researchers and scientist that are working to prevent an environmental apocalypse, but it certainly wasn't "made up" as some sort of feel good thing to teach kids (and no one is asking you to learn or believe anything based solely on some fundie "faith".

Secondly, if you were proposing ADDITIONAL education that would be one thing, but it doesn't appear that you are. Instead you seem to be saying let's create little good sheeple that can read, write and serve their rethugliklan, tea partying, corporate masters better. Gawd let's not make sure they have sufficient education to have a balanced and rounded understanding of sociological and scientific issues cuz then they start asking those pesky questions like "Why can't I be equal?".

If you do

 

[JNaylor]

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, Part II:

Dude, I hate to break it to you but gays are already IN the military. They have been since the beginning. That doing away with a discriminatory policy is suddenly going to make a bunch of gays start fornication is ludicrous. So is your propagation that all gay men are effeminate. What horse shit! Ever hear of Mark Bingham, for example? He was a true American hero who sacrificed himself to save thousands. If you read about him he was anything but a wimpy, effeminate man. iThaca are tens of thousands of brave "macho" gay men (will discuss your misconceptions about macho being better at a later date) who are CURRENT proudly serving their country honorably. How DARE you besmirch their sacrifice and service.

I'm well aware

 

[Safe_Bet]

If you don't believe that global warming is a social movement then you have really drank the kool-aid. Yes it started as a scientific theory but has now blossomed into the largest social movement this country has ever seen. I could spend hours and hours laying it out for you but it would clearly be time wasted so I won't bother. Let me simply remind you that at one time the northern half of the united states was tropical and at another time it was under a mile thick sheet of ice and yet another time it was under a saltwater ocean. All of these things occured long before humans inhabited the earth so a few tenths of a degree change in the temperature over a ten year period is hardly reason to destroy our economy and brainwash our children. Also one large volcanic eruption emits more pollution than every car ever produced in the history of automobiles so are we going to ban volcanoes too? Have another sip of kool-aid I hear the blue stuff is pretty good.

Right. Polar shifts, tectonic shifts and volcanic eruptions are all preventable.

Short sighted much, BTW????

 

[JNaylor]

Right. Polar shifts, tectonic shifts and volcanic eruptions are all preventable.

Short sighted much, BTW????

My point exactly

 

[Stella_Omega]

JNaylor, you are conflating several conflicting trends. The jobs market went overseas because big corporations want to make as much money as they can, not because they want to save the environment. They don't give a fuck about the environment, they give more fuck that you can possibly imagine, about money.

The rest of us-- we give a little less of a fuck about money, and we want to keep this world livable. Some of us don't think that should be difficult, some of think it's becoming nearly impossible. Those are differences of opinions- - but the men who care about money more than anything else? They are barely even human beings any more.
http://twistedchick.dreamwidth.org/3582280.html

 

[JNaylor]

JNaylor, you are conflating several conflicting trends. The jobs market went overseas because big corporations want to make as much money as they can, not because they want to save the environment. They don't give a fuck about the environment, they give more fuck that you can possibly imagine, about money.

The rest of us-- we give a little less of a fuck about money, and we want to keep this world livable. Some of us don't think that should be difficult, some of think it's becoming nearly impossible. Those are differences of opinions- - but the men who care about money more than anything else? They are barely even human beings any more.
http://twistedchick.dreamwidth.org/3582280.html

No, what

 

[Stella_Omega]

oh, okay.

 

[JNaylor]

oh, okay.

No problem..

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, it is a problem. But your post is so full of contradictions and false correlations that it's not worth talking to you about it.

 

[CandiCame]

Well, it is a problem. But your post is so full of contradictions and false correlations that it's not worth talking to you about it.

I think he's just from the old school.

You know, the time when you looked at a guy like me and thought, "We can't let that faggot in here, he'd spend all his time "cleaning barrels"."

Plus, I dunno- saying that guys fawn over chicks so hardcore they can't get their work done is... really insulting to us men-folk. I LOVE chicks, but I don't look at them and immediently think, "I wanna hit that worse then I wanna get paid." If you don't walk that street and make that dollar, then fuck off- we're broke as shit and trying to work.

That said, we got 15 minutes, you wanna quicky in the break room? (Not like we haven't all done it before, people- or that one spot way high up when I worked in the library, lol). My point is, I hate the way that men are depicted as mindless dick machines. I'm not.

Plus, if you see two guys in your unit fucking- here's what you do- discretely close the door and walk away. It'll be ok.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I don't know a single soul, and I know a lot of big businessmen, that wants to do anything to harm the environment. Most want to use the natural resources to produce a prodcut that consumers want to buy....

... I am against government intrusion into my life based on bad science and even worse solutions to a problem that does not exist.

Oh, horse shit!

Google Koch Bothers and Fox River. Google superfund sites. Google BP oil spill and Transoceanic.

Now say again you don't know of a single business man / corporation that wants to harm the environment. I need a good laugh cuz your stupidity is funny.