TPE Ethics, hypothetical situations, power and responsibility

[sexymom]

Dr. Phil of daytime tv fame (in the USA, anyway), if full of psychological insights on life; many of which I agree with and others I think are badly off track. One of the more interesting Philisms is that there is no reality; only perception. I used to think this was absolutely not ture, but the more time I spend discussing bdsm on the internet and face to face, the more I realize that we picture ourselves in a particular way, and we live according to those perceptions, even if they may not be in line with how others see us, or even in line with "reality", in the sense of measurable and observed behavior.

BDSM seems to be like religion in that we band together to protect ourselves from the outside world, but then the various "denominations" fight vigorously amongst themselves as to who is doing it right.

I have learned, after a lot of grief, never to use the terms "real" or "not real" in discussing bdsm in all its many aspects. I have told Goreans that I think Gor isn't real, and it either prompted an angry response, or a reaction of pity- "you poor, ignorant soul- if you can't see it or touch it yourself, it doesn't exist for you." Similar experiences abound in discussing on-line bdsm, and we have all, I think, seen those debates.

I think, in order to be involved in slavery or tpe you have to believe it is "real", and of course, if you believe it, then it is real. That does not mean, though, that the disbelievers are wrong; particularly in their theories that the power exchange is both limited and voluntary. Even in the days when slavery was legal, and had all the power of government and social/economic structure to support it, slaves were very conscious of the fact that they made decisions on whether to obey or not, and whether to remain in their slave status or run away. In fact, one of the things that made slavery repulsive to many people in the USA was the often vicious punishments given to the slaves for disobedience. The underground railway was set up to assist escaped slaves, since the laws required them to be returned to their owners, even in states that did not allow possession of slaves.

Except for a few cases where people are held in abject ignorance, which is terribly abusive, imho, the slaves know that they have options, and they choose the options that are in line with their desired self-image. This does not make tpe or slavery any less "real", nor any less appealing, but the failure to recognize this often creates a barrier to understanding when dealing with unbelievers.

I have been told that it is a type of relationship that doesn't seem real to me because I don't understand it- it is only real to those who live it. That used to make me angry, but finally I realized that if it's real in your mind, it's real.

Score one for Dr. Phil, I guess.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The infamous Dr Phil, I suppose it was about time he joined us in Literotica. Catalina is convinced that he is into BDSM, if you look at the interaction between him and his wife there might be some truth in it.

In counselling there is a technique called Guided Visualisation, let me guide you all on a trip which might lead to a better understanding of what TPE is for us and might help others to understand our self-image and reality.

Relax and get comfortable, make sure that you feel completely relaxed, imagine yourself to be the main character in this very short story, your name is Nathalia and you are a blond girl, 37 years old, your Masters name is Darwin and you are both asleep in your bedroom.

Nathalia’s morning started just as any other morning did, she was used to the morning routine by now. Even before the alarm went of she was already awake, lying naked next to her Master in the dark bedroom. She knew she had only minutes left before He would wake up and she wanted to enjoy the naked skin of her Master pressed against her, she could hear the soft snoring she had become so used to.

The alarm went off and Darwin woke up, he stretched out in the bed and looked at Nathalia for a minute with still sleepy eyes, Nathalia rested her head for a couple of seconds on his chest before starting to push Darwin out of bed.

Come on love, you are going to be late for work, you need to get up.

Darwin dragged himself out of bed, murmuring some incomprehensible words and stumbled towards the bathroom where he took a shower and freshened up to start another day at work. In the mean time Nathalia laid out Darwin’s clothes and went down to prepare his breakfast and lunch. Darwin went down to have his coffee and watch the news before going to work.

Just before going he took Nathalia in his arms and caressed her naked butt.

Francisco.

 

[Justina123]

In this day and age, entering into a TPE relationship is done by consent of both parties. Notice I said "entering into it." Once in, yes, Sir is in control of everything He desires to be in contol of, and has assigned many tasks to me which He expects me to take care with very little input from Him on a daily basis- though I can and do ask Him for guidance when something out of the ordinary comes up.

In our TPE relationship, Sir does not WANT to micromanage. Yes, He expects me to do things HIS way, but he would be extremely displeased with me if I needed constant direction as to what HIS way is. By now, I know the basics of how He wants things to go and to happen.

Also, I chose Him because I know He has a lot of respect for my opinions and my knowledge. He doesn't try to tell me how to do my job, for instance, because He is in a totally different profession. But He does expect me to behave certain ways at work, He expects me to do my best, to be conscientious, etc. etc.

I think life in the modern world, with both people often working outside the home, children, many outside responsibilities, etc. TPE can get pretty darn complicated. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

-justina

 

[Quint]

The infamous Dr Phil, I suppose it was about time he joined us in Literotica. Catalina is convinced that he is into BDSM, if you look at the interaction between him and his wife there might be some truth in it.

In counselling there is a technique called Guided Visualisation, let me guide you all on a trip which might lead to a better understanding of what TPE is for us and might help others to understand our self-image and reality.

Relax and get comfortable, make sure that you feel completely relaxed, imagine yourself to be the main character in this very short story, your name is Nathalia and you are a blond girl, 37 years old, your Masters name is Darwin and you are both asleep in your bedroom.

Nathalia’s morning started just as any other morning did, she was used to the morning routine by now. Even before the alarm went of she was already awake, lying naked next to her Master in the dark bedroom. She knew she had only minutes left before He would wake up and she wanted to enjoy the naked skin of her Master pressed against her, she could hear the soft snoring she had become so used to.

The alarm went off and Darwin woke up, he stretched out in the bed and looked at Nathalia for a minute with still sleepy eyes, Nathalia rested her head for a couple of seconds on his chest before starting to push Darwin out of bed.

Come on love, you are going to be late for work, you need to get up.

Darwin dragged himself out of bed, murmuring some incomprehensible words and stumbled towards the bathroom where he took a shower and freshened up to start another day at work. In the mean time Nathalia laid out Darwin’s clothes and went down to prepare his breakfast and lunch. Darwin went down to have his coffee and watch the news before going to work.

Just before going he took Nathalia in his arms and caressed her naked butt.

Francisco.

"In these ways ministered by their master, servants love their master in five ways:--they rise before him, they lie down to rest after him; they are content with what is given to them; they do their work well; and they carry about his praise and good fame."

--from the teachings of the Compassionate Buddha, the Sigalovada Suttanta

Lovely example, Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

"In these ways ministered by their master, servants love their master in five ways:--they rise before him, they lie down to rest after him; they are content with what is given to them; they do their work well; and they carry about his praise and good fame."

--from the teachings of the Compassionate Buddha, the Sigalovada Suttanta

Lovely example, Francisco.

Thank you Quint, I always knew I was smarter than I even knew. Without even reading the works of Buddha I can still make an example based on his teachings.

But you have indeed gotten the message I was trying to make, even if I admit to not knowing the works of Buddha.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think life in the modern world, with both people often working outside the home, children, many outside responsibilities, etc. TPE can get pretty darn complicated. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

-justina

I could not have said it better, beautiful post thank you for contributing.

Francisco.

 

[Etoile]

Some things that I view as micromanagement if they are done ALL the time. (nearly anything can be fun once in a while)

TPE doesn't necessarily mean that everything must be managed by the dominant partner. In my case, a long-distance TPE relationship, that's not even possible. Yes, when we are together, I do ask what I should wear - but that's partly out of uncertainty and indecision on my own part! Sometimes Daddy wants me to wear what I think will please em, and that's totally appropriate in my eyes. If I'm wrong, I can always change before we leave. When we're not together, Daddy doesn't control things like what I wear or when I go to the bathroom - not possible! But my relationship is still TPE.

As I alluded to above, some of TPE can be about the dominant partner wanting the submissive partner to choose, for the purpose of exercising the sub's best judgment. Or, the dominant partner can choose to let the sub wear/eat whatever they want. It's not so much that everything must be controlled by the dom...but rather that the dom has the option to control everything. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[Etoile]

Gorian-Obsessive Absolute Power Exchange Submissive Hostage Identification Tendency.
Sorry Francisco.

For anybody who still hasn't figured that out, it's GO APE SHIT. Took me long enough that I figured others might still be wondering, too. (I had it as GOAPE SHIT - pronounced like goat shit - for a long time before getting it!)

 

[Etoile]

So I have rules which I expect to be followed and I will control my partner in this way if she is following them. I have standard disciplinary actions for disobedience and for breaking the rules. I expect my partner to be honest enough to tell me when she breaks a rule, I am normally quite lenient and quite reasonable as long as I have been informed and there is a good reason for not following my orders.

I also enjoy a good mind and a good discussion, if there is something I find boring it is a robot, I want to have a relationship in which my partner enriches my life by enriching not only my body but also my mind. The standard brain-dead robot is not the type of slave I am looking for. I do not enjoy disobedience and I do not accept disobedience but that does not mean I can never be wrong, it does not mean that simply because I am the Dominant I have to ignore one of my best resources which is my partner's brain.

This is an absolutely fantastic post, Francsico. You said a lot of what I was thinking more eloquently than I could have. Thank you for expressing it so well. Daddy and I have engaging talks all the time for exactly the reasons you mentioned. (Although more often than not e is right, but that's because e's got 20 years on me and just knows more! But we do still debate.)

 

[Pure]

Catalina said,

//Once I gave myself in TPE commitment, my power was passed to him and remains completely in his control. I have surrendered all my rights, I can no longer weigh my options and reacte independently on them, nor can I entertain ideas of leaving and finding another if I become dissatisfied in any sense. My existence is totally and completely in his power and though I may raise concerns in a respectful manner, his decision is final. //

OK, let's assume F already loved and cared for you. Now you 'consent'/'decide'/enter-into and your power is passed to him.

Where exactly was the exchange? Did something at the same time pass from him to you? (Obviously if you gave up control to him, he took up controlling you---but those phrases sound like pretty much the same thing, like, half empty, half full.)

 

[Netzach]

It's not so much that everything must be controlled by the dom...but rather that the dom has the option to control everything. At least that's the way I see it. [/B]

Bingo, exactly, succinct, why can't we all be this succinct?

 

[Pure]

The army analogy fits in many ways. The sergeant does not necessarily 'manage' or directly control every minute of the private's life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Where exactly was the exchange? Did something at the same time pass from him to you? (Obviously if you gave up control to him, he took up controlling you---but those phrases sound like pretty much the same thing, like, half empty, half full.)

To be able to feed the need to submit, the control over oneself has to be given away. When the power is passed up to the dominant, in exchange for the power the submissive gives to the dominant the needs of the submissive are answered and met.

Francisco.

 

[Etoile]

Bingo, exactly, succinct, why can't we all be this succinct?

Thanks, Netzach! It just popped into my head as something that made sense. Maybe I'll add it into my signature or something.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thanks, Netzach! It just popped into my head as something that made sense. Maybe I'll add it into my signature or something.

It is indeed a very good remark Etoile, it is concise and precise.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

From reading various posts in threads on the board, one thing which seems to be missed in some perceptions is to commit to TPE there have to be some factors present before the commitment, if it is to be considered legitimate and/or valid to be taken seriously. First you do not commit to a TPE without first having some form of power to exchange....where is the exchange if a person says they entered into TPE because they felt they had no choice, no ability to say no, or make a choice independently? Secondly, the person commiting to give up their power to another needs to understand what they are doing, take responsibility for it at that time, be informed of the way this will be played out, and most importantly know the person they are committing to. It is not meant to be another way to throw your hands in the air and say 'It's not my problem'.

Catalina

 

[the shadow of a boy]

continual & consensual surrender

On 'the other thread', I shamelessly used C&F as examples in explaining the dynamics of power and responsibility that, as far as I can figure out, must in actuality pertain in a TPE relationship. Since I presented my understanding in terms of 'what is' rather than tenetively, I felt that I should bring the gist of it here for comment, dispute, and clarification.

"..In reality, the decision to submit in a TPE relationship is not like a deal with the devil. If Fransisco owns Catalina's soul, it is not because he has a piece of paper that says so. The decision to submit is renewed and re-affirmed with every act of submission. When Catalina approaches Fransisco as a supplicant, and surrenders her life to him, it is only Fransisco, and only insofar as he can assume it in her stead, who absolves her of responsibility... it is only between them that her surrender of autonomy has merit... [and] her surrender of will and choice [is] by her will and choice, at every moment."

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: continual & consensual surrender

.

"..In reality, the decision to submit in a TPE relationship is not like a deal with the devil. If Fransisco owns Catalina's soul, it is not because he has a piece of paper that says so. The decision to submit is renewed and re-affirmed with every act of submission. When Catalina approaches Fransisco as a supplicant, and surrenders her life to him, it is only Fransisco, and only insofar as he can assume it in her stead, who absolves her of responsibility... it is only between them that her surrender of autonomy has merit... [and] her surrender of will and choice [is] by her will and choice, at every moment."

From my understanding of what you say, this is mostly true, perhaps more so depending on exact meanings. For us it is TPE of the extreme, and we are aware that anything we do, though at his choice and design, if it steps outside the law or safety it is the risk he decides to take...and yes, I will voice my concerns if they are high, and he will listen, and sometimes he will revise his decision, but it still remains his decision one way or the other, and his responsibility between us and others who understand the terms of the relationship.

By extreme I mean there are no limits outside those he decides upon for us, there is no contract on paper, and I have surrendered all rights to him to direct or take as he wishes. It does permeate every aspect of our lives, though he is not into micromanagement......he has rules and expectations I understand and try my best to abide by, and use to guide my actions when he is not physically with me one on one. It is why it is important to understand and know the essence of the person you commit to, their ethics and values, before crossing that line which can never be recrossed. So many fall back on the excuse 'but you can't discuss every possible topic and decision that might arise before commiting'. This is true, but if you know, and understand their ethics and values, IMO there is no need to discuss "all' possibilites before knowing what it is you are committing to.

I exercised my will to make the commitment, and though it now belongs to him, as you say, in a way I am always exercising my will, though by proxy as I have surrendered that right to him. It is a blanket type surrender which from that moment no longer is my right to choose whether or not I agree. I can scream and beg and debate all I want, but if it is his wish to continue, I do so to the best of my ability. I don't have to fear if this means he is going to ask me to murder someone or cut off contact with family and friends, as this is just not who he is, or what he needs to do to exercise his dominance over me. I think this is the fear of some when talking of TPE, the being asked to do the unexpected and unacceptable.....a possible reality if you don't use your head before the fact. Or perhaps a carefully planned argument when needed for one who knowingly commits to someone who shares their ethics and values, which do not necesssarily respect the rights of others, or see murder and/or abuse of others as off limits. Just a thought from another angle.

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: Re: continual & consensual surrender

From my understanding of what you say, this is mostly true, perhaps more so depending on exact meanings. For us it is TPE of the extreme, and we are aware that anything we do, though at his choice and design, if it steps outside the law or safety it is the risk he decides to take...and yes, I will voice my concerns if they are high, and he will listen, and sometimes he will revise his decision, but it still remains his decision one way or the other, and his responsibility between us and others who understand the terms of the relationship.

By extreme I mean there are no limits outside those he decides upon for us, there is no contract on paper, and I have surrendered all rights to him to direct or take as he wishes. It does permeate every aspect of our lives, though he is not into micromanagement......he has rules and expectations I understand and try my best to abide by, and use to guide my actions when he is not physically with me one on one. It is why it is important to understand and know the essence of the person you commit to, their ethics and values, before crossing that line which can never be recrossed. So many fall back on the excuse 'but you can't discuss every possible topic and decision that might arise before commiting'. This is true, but if you know, and understand their ethics and values, IMO there is no need to discuss "all' possibilites before knowing what it is you are committing to.

I exercised my will to make the commitment, and though it now belongs to him, as you say, in a way I am always exercising my will, though by proxy as I have surrendered that right to him. It is a blanket type surrender which from that moment no longer is my right to choose whether or not I agree. I can scream and beg and debate all I want, but if it is his wish to continue, I do so to the best of my ability. I don't have to fear if this means he is going to ask me to murder someone or cut off contact with family and friends, as this is just not who he is, or what he needs to do to exercise his dominance over me. I think this is the fear of some when talking of TPE, the being asked to do the unexpected and unacceptable.....a possible reality if you don't use your head before the fact.

Catalina

*grins* I always love hearing things from our "twin couple" from across the Atlantic.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: continual & consensual surrender

*grins* I always love hearing things from our "twin couple" from across the Atlantic.

And now you have one part of your life settled, it must be time for you to visit the decadent side!! Can't make like rabbits forever you know...LOL, we can talk?!!

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: continual & consensual surrender

And now you have one part of your life settled, it must be time for you to visit the decadent side!! Can't make like rabbits forever you know...LOL, we can talk?!!

Catalina

Hush, you!

 

[Kajira Callista]

http://www.domsublifestyle.com/article9.html

 

[catalina_francisco]

TPE and Sainthood

I was reading through one of the threads and was again called a Saint, and this time not by Pure but by AngelicAssassin. Lately we have been talking a lot about TPE and exploring the boundaries of consensual slavery. One thing that seems to have shocked some is the amount of control and power a slave gives their master in a TPE without limits.

This is why I have always stipulated that a TPE Dominant needs to be of higher moral standards than most, this is not because TPE Dominants are better or worthier persons but simple because of the trust and control their submissive gives them. To be successful as a TPE Dominant there needs to be at least one submissive who has trusted the Dominant enough to give their power over them selves to the Dominant.

There is one big dilemma for submissives who are attracted to TPE and that is the amount of power they give away. In exploration of the TPE facsimile questions have been asked about children, birth, mutilation, cutting and branding. For a slave once they have given control away there is no option anymore. Morally they might still have the choice to refuse an order but how realistic is it to expect that. If a slave has been trained and moulded into obedience by their Master than how it can be expected they can refuse an order is to me a riddle. We are talking here about nerve pathways created in the brain of complete and total obedience.

A slave knows this and expects this to happen, and in essence is what they want. A slave is not looking for living a life in a democratic environment, they are looking for a dictator or a king/queen. This is why TPE slaves are normally extremely cautious in their commitment to their Dominant; it is not unheard of for a TPE to look for their Master for years. Most TPE slaves are looking for a Dominant who is of strong moral fibre, who can portray an image of stability and control not only over others but also over themselves, and has enough brain to understand their needs, and yes also a Dominant who is experienced enough to understand the consequences of their actions. So basically many are looking for a sadistic saint who has been in the lifestyle awhile.

Although it is not something that is discussed openly by TPE’ers, it is not uncommon for this kind of relationships to end, and sometimes they are ended by the submissive. Although the slave has given total control, there are simply speaking things they can not do, there are moral and mental blocks in place. When a TPE Dominant knowingly pushes his property to break those blocks without preparing his property it will normally fail and end in breakage of the relationship. A Dominant however can also slowly step by step break or push a mental/moral block and in those instances it is much harder to predict what the result will be. One of those techniques is to first make the submissive accept a fantasy and then make the fantasy become reality.

This is why it is important for a submissive who is interested in TPE to carefully consider what they are really getting into and to make a clear and distinct picture of how they want their Dominant to be, and what their hard and soft limits are.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

http://www.domsublifestyle.com/article9.html

Interesting and well written article, in BDSM, D/s, TPE or whatever you want to name it, relationships are made and labelled according to the individuals involved. The article is well written but it seems to be missing a real understanding of what the power dynamics are in TPE relationship.

However it does make some good points about TPE, certainly worthy of a reading.

Francisco.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Re: TPE and Sainthood

Hm.

Hmmmmm.

I'm not sure how soon or if I'll have questions/comments, but this post is pretty close to pure gold.