TPE Ethics, hypothetical situations, power and responsibility

[catalina_francisco]

Contracts

I thought it might be interesting to discuss contracts and TPE, to start the discussion here is a pretty standard one to give an idea of what would be in a normal TPE contract, the contract is based on a hetrosexual relationship but of course it can be used independant of sexual preferences.

Contract between Master & Submissive

This contract has been drawn up by both Master and Submissive out of respect for each other, their love, and their deep commitment to each other as Master and slave. It is their wish to protect their love and their special bond, and to show each other the importance each feels for the commitment to each other in their respective roles.

Slave's Role

Submissive agrees to submit completely to Master in all ways. Submissive shall obey always the commands Master gives her. This she does out of love and respect for her Owner and Master. Submissive’s body and mind are the property of Master to be used as he sees fit.
The main responsibility of Submissive will be to use all the talents she possesses to please Master, her reason for existing. Everything she does will always be done with Master in mind, and will be done with the thought of pleasing him above all others, including herself. This will include her creative abilities of art and writing, her mind for thought, and her body for sexual pleasure.

Slave's Veto

Submissive does not hold any veto power over any command given by Master.

Master pledges the following:

1. He will not knowingly give any command that conflicts with any existing laws and may lead to fines, arrest, or prosecution of Submissive
2. He will not knowingly give any command that may cause extreme damage to Submissive’s life, such as losing her job, causing family stress, emotional pain, etc.
3. He will not knowingly give any command that may cause permanent bodily harm to Submissive, unless she has agreed to its use of her own free will.
4. He will not knowingly give any command that may cause psychological trauma to Submissive.

If Submissive feels a command falls under any in the above section, it is her responsibility to mention it to Master immediately, and without delay. Master will retract the command if Submissive has been successful in convincing him she has valid concerns under the above listed section.

Submissive pledges the following

1. She will at all time please her Master in all she creates, thinks, and does. He will be the centre of her Universe, and her reason for existing.
2. She will lay aside her own desires and needs in preference of those of her Master at all times.
3. She will lay aside the desires and needs of others in preference of those of her Master at all times, except in cases of family emergencies. In such situations, Submissive will seek the permission, advice, and support of her Master as soon as possible.
4. She will obey his every command without delay or question, always seeking to perform at her optimum level.
5. She will seek to always strive to overcome any limits she has, no matter how difficult and/or painful, as a means of pleasing her Master by continuing to evolve as both slave and human being.
6. She will always present her concerns in times of conflict, but after being heard, will accept Master's decision as final.
7. She will never knowingly harm Master either physically, emotionally, or mentally.
8. She will never hold Master responsible for any damage he causes to her, physically or mentally, if it was an action completely without ill intent or malice.
9. She will accept his right to mark her body permanently as his slave and property, in a form to be decided. Submissive will accept Master's decision in this matter once relevant medical advice has been sought, and all methods researched so an informed decision can be made.

Master's Role

Master accepts the responsibility of Submissive, and her worldly possessions. Master will have responsibility for the care of the property which previously belonged to her as a free woman. She will be allowed access to, and use of this property at his discretion.
Master agrees to care for Submissive, to arrange for the safety and well-being of Submissive. Master also accepts the commitment to treat Submissive fairly, to train Submissive, punish Submissive, love Submissive, and use Submissive as he sees fit.

Worldly Possessions

Submissive's former worldly possessions will fall under the care of Master. Both will agree to the following, and will draw up legal documentation in accordance as soon as possible:
In the case one dies before the other, all possessions will go to the surviving member. When the surviving member of the couple dies, all possessions will be divided equally between the surviving families of Submissive and Master, where in this case it shall be clearly stated that all possessions Submissive had before entering into the relationship with Master will go to her children and grandchildren, as previously promised by her to them.
The rest of their possessions will be divided equally between the families of both.

Punishment

Submissive agrees to accept any punishment Master decides to inflict, whether earned or not. Master will always explain why she has earned such punishment, so Submissive can strive to always improve, and become an even better slave as is their wish.

Permanent Bodily Harm

Since the body of Submissive now belongs to Master, it is Master’s responsibility to protect that body from permanent bodily harm.

Permanent bodily harm shall be determined as:

1. Death
2. Any damage that involves loss of mobility or function, including broken bones.
3. Any permanent marks on the skin, including scars, burns, or tattoos, unless accepted by Master.
4. Any piercing of the flesh which leaves a permanent hole, unless accepted by Master.
5. Where possible, any diseases that could result in any of the above results, including sexually transmitted diseases.

Others

Both Submissive and Master may not seek any other intimate or lover, or relate to others in any sexual or BDSM way on a permanent basis. In instance where they may choose to involve others in scenes or sessions, they will only be allowed strictly under the following rules, in the interests of protecting each other and their relationship:

1. Any inclusion of others in play in an intimate way will only occur after both have discussed the issue, and heard each other's thoughts; however Master will always have the final decision.
2. Any decision to include others in play in an intimate way will be done with the understanding that both Master and Submissive will take unconditional responsibility to support and help the other overcome any unforeseen difficulties resulting from the inclusion of others.
3. Only under great exception will it be allowed they play more then one time with the same other, and then only if Master and Submissive both agree.
4. Submissive will choose the female partners, and Master will choose the male partners.
5. Under no condition will Submissive ever be given away, either temporarily or permanently.
6. Under no condition will Master or Submissive play or have a session alone with any third party, without the presence of each other.

Alteration of Contract

This contract may not be altered, except when both Master and Submissive agree. If the contract is altered, the new contract shall be printed and signed, and then the old contract must be destroyed.

Termination of Contract

This contract will never under any condition or circumstance be terminated. The contract in any form can never be terminated by Master or Submissive, irrespective of reason. If difficulties arise, they have committed to work to find a solution which will preserve the special bond they share on this day. If necessary, they agree to seek professional help to maintain the relationship.

The contract can only be replaced by another contract that has this same rule in it.
Both Master and Submissive have made an informed commitment of their own free will to be Master and slave to each other for eternity.

Slave's Signature

I have read and fully understand this contract in its entirety. I agree to give everything I own to Master under the conditions agreed on in this contract, and further accept his claim of ownership over myself. I understand that I will be commanded and trained and punished as a slave, and I promise to be true and to fulfill the pleasures and desires of my master to the best of my abilities. I understand that I cannot withdraw from this, or any subsequent contract.

Signature:____________

Master's Signature

I have read and fully understand this contract in its entirety. I agree to accept Submissive as my property, to accept her body and possessions as agreed upon in this contract, and to care for her to the best of my ability. I shall provide for her security and well-being and command her, train her, and punish her as a slave. I understand the responsibility implicit in this arrangement, and agree that no harm shall come to the slave. I further understand that I cannot withdraw from this, or any subsequent contract.

Signature:____________

 

[Etoile]

I really liked reading that, thank you for posting it. (I'm not sure if I should be thanking Catalina or Francisco!)

Daddy and I have never felt the need for a contract, although recent squabblings between us have made me wonder if I want one. I remind myself that all lovers fight sometimes, though, and we always make up afterwards (in our own way, of course!).

 

[catalina_francisco]

Though contracts can be revised at various stages of the relationship, should they be rewritten to reverse agreed terms if the submissive/slave changes their mind as to their willingness to participate according to the agreed upon terms of the present contract? Is the Dominant obliged to consider the submissive/slave's request for change?

Catalina

 

[Shadowsdream]

Though contracts can be revised at various stages of the relationship, should they be rewritten to reverse agreed upon terms if the submissive/slave changes their mind as to their willingness to participate according to the agreed upon terms of the present contract? Is the Dominant obliged to consider the submissive/slave's request for change?

Catalina

Consider yes...comply no.

My slave approached Me more than 6 months ago to deepen O/our contract, taking away all of the rights he had found necessary four years ago. To deepen the contract into one of absolutes takes deep consideration on My part. he has already gone through this thought process long before coming to Me. I will take My own sweet time deciding if I wish to formalize what is already occuring.
The FINAL contract signed between U/us will be written without benefit of following an Internet guide...it will be so specific to who we are and where we intend to go and will leave no wiggle room.
Any lessening of the original terms of agreement would have brought with it a lessening of My interest in his submission. Knowing him well and his consistant needs to submit I have no doubt My desire to lessen My acceptance of the original contract would have also made Me less attractive to him.
I do not enter into contracts quickly or without a great deal of fore thought and belief that it will be long standing.

Well that seems to be a muddled response!

 

[catalina_francisco]

I really liked reading that, thank you for posting it. (I'm not sure if I should be thanking Catalina or Francisco!)

Daddy and I have never felt the need for a contract, although recent squabblings between us have made me wonder if I want one. I remind myself that all lovers fight sometimes, though, and we always make up afterwards (in our own way, of course!).

I am sorry Etoile for not answering sooner but I was distracted by something extremely silly. I posted the contract.

I do not feel that every relationship needs a contract, but I do feel that it is important to talk about the major subjects in the contracts.

Things as veto and setting the bounderies are important and have nothing to do with TPE and everything to do with common sense.

If you are not sure if you want a contract my advice would be to talk with e about it and converse about limits and safewords.

Francisco.

 

[Etoile]

I am sorry Etoile for not answering sooner but I was distracted by something extremely silly. I posted the contract.

I do not feel that every relationship needs a contract, but I do feel that it is important to talk about the major subjects in the contracts.

Things as veto and setting the bounderies are important and have nothing to do with TPE and everything to do with common sense.

If you are not sure if you want a contract my advice would be to talk with e about it and converse about limits and safewords.

Francisco.

Thanks for responding, Francisco! Daddy and I haven't ever really discussed limits or safewords, except in a cerebral way, not as they apply to us, because we don't really feel they do. I suppose that points our relationship in the TPE direction. I guess having a contract for me would be more a document showing love rather than something necessary to continue our relationship. Hmmm.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thanks for responding, Francisco! Daddy and I haven't ever really discussed limits or safewords, except in a cerebral way, not as they apply to us, because we don't really feel they do. I suppose that points our relationship in the TPE direction. I guess having a contract for me would be more a document showing love rather than something necessary to continue our relationship. Hmmm.

A contract is a sign of love and commitment. I am not saying that a contract is necessary to continuo any relationship just that it is good to have talked about limits and safe words.

By agreeing you have no hard limits and safe words you have actually talked about it and made an agreement.

But if I may ask you a question have you talked with your Daddy about your soft limits?

According to me, your soft limits are information which is very important. By agreeing to not have any hard limits it does not mean you suddenly have changed into a machine that can have done anything to her. There are always things you will find extremely hard to do or have done to yourself. For your Daddy to be able to make a proper evaluation of the amount of effort e has to put into a scene e needs to have fast and quick access to that information.

Francisco.

 

[Etoile]

A contract is a sign of love and commitment. I am not saying that a contract is necessary to continuo any relationship just that it is good to have talked about limits and safe words.

By agreeing you have no hard limits and safe words you have actually talked about it and made an agreement.

But if I may ask you a question have you talked with your Daddy about your soft limits?

According to me, your soft limits are information which is very important. By agreeing to not have any hard limits it does not mean you suddenly have changed into a machine that can have done anything to her. There are always things you will find extremely hard to do or have done to yourself. For your Daddy to be able to make a proper evaluation of the amount of effort e has to put into a scene e needs to have fast and quick access to that information.

Francisco.

That's an excellent point, and a valuable one. I don't think we've discussed "soft limits" in so many words, but we have talked about things I don't like doing. Some of them I've been trained to accept anyway, and some of them Daddy has accepted that we won't do because e may not be interested in them either. I think we - and potentially all couples? I don't know - develop soft limits as time goes on, too. Daddy tried an experiment the last time I was with em, and it ended up not working out for me at all. So I don't think we'll be doing it again...I'm not sure if that's even classified as a "limit" but it's something Daddy knows I wouldn't enjoy as e intended me to.

By the way, I really appreciate that you use the Spivak pronouns for my Daddy. I've noticed it and I'm grateful for it. Thank you.

 

[Esclava]

GRACIOUS!

I had NO idea that the relationship I am looking to share has a name. As you can see, I am quite a newbie to the forums. And I appreciate the opportunity to share - even with my limited knowledge of the subject - thoughtful, insightful opinions.

I believe my virtual Master trains me to be an obedient slave. We have no contract nor do we share a "TPE", but He does have expectations, rules and commands He issues to this one. He has said that I will have to give Him up when He is replaced by a real, physical Master. It is difficult for me to believe that He will ever be replaced, but I believe what He says.

Will my physical D/s relationship be "TPE"? I cannot answer that right now. But I will continue to visit these boards and I will continue to learn because I have decided that there are intelligent, knowledgeable people who post here - whose opinions are valuable and deserve my consideration. Thank you all -

Esclava

 

[Etoile]

Hmmm. I'm totally unfamiliar with online D/s. Can we maybe start a discussion about what "virtual TPE" is like as opposed to RL TPE?

 

[Esclava]

Hmmmmm.......RL TPE is not something I have a great deal of experience with. My former was NOT a Master and did not provide the basis for a PE - Total or otherwise. I learned the hard way that I do have power to exchange, but I must question the one that will assume that power - just as I did with the one I call Master in the virtual.

I did not think I would EVER reclaim my submissiveness after my previous, truly painful experience. Master talked to me for weeks and I believe my decision to re-examine being submissive is very good.

Perhaps inviting other opinions on RL versus "virtual" TPE could be an interesting thread to start. Many thanks!

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

By the way, I really appreciate that you use the Spivak pronouns for my Daddy. I've noticed it and I'm grateful for it. Thank you.

If it is important enough for you to put it in your signature, it seems to me I can at least try it.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps inviting other opinions on RL versus "virtual" TPE could be an interesting thread to start. Many thanks!

Esclava

Hola Esclava,

I have never heard of virtual TPE, I also do not like that label. It sounds as not being real. Maybe a better description would be online TPE. An online relationship can feel and be as 'real' to a person.

I wonder how you would see this online TPE, how would the daily reality of your life look like?

Francisco.

 

[Esclava]

Hola Esclava,

I have never heard of virtual TPE, I also do not like that label. It sounds as not being real. Maybe a better description would be online TPE. An online relationship can feel and be as 'real' to a person.

I wonder how you would see this online TPE, how would the daily reality of your life look like?

Francisco.

Hola Francisco,

Thank you for your thought provoking question. The relationship I am in IS online. I am accustomed to referring to anything in the online realm as "virtual" - that is the only reason I used that label.

As for what my daily life looks like, it does not remotely resemble what I wish it to. I do not spend daily time with Master nor am I His only slave. What I believe I gain from Him is the ability to bring my own desires under submission to another. I revealed a bit about myself in another thread, but I have not done so in this one.

I am one who had to carry the load of single parenthood alone for many years with very few "partners" in between to be of comfort or assistance. So, I have always had to rely on myself to take my family through life. My children are grown now - my "baby" is 21 and leaving my nest to live on his own. I gave up many things (including my submissive nature) to raise my children and only now have the freedom to re-visit and explore it. Unfortunately, many things have changed over the years and I have A LOT to learn before I'm ready to seek a real, physical Master.

I do know I have a tremendous amount of "power" to exchange with the right Master/Mistress (I have served both because I loved each in Their own right). My desire to please one who cares for, loves, praises and disciplines me will test the mettle of One so inclined to push my boundaries. My Master says I am a loving, obedient slave and the One who attains me will be special indeed. Perhaps as I gain more knowledge of Who it is I seek, I can better define those areas that will keep me in humble service to One that understands the precious gift I have to give.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hola Francisco,

Thank you for your thought provoking question. The relationship I am in IS online. I am accustomed to referring to anything in the online realm as "virtual" - that is the only reason I used that label.

As for what my daily life looks like, it does not remotely resemble what I wish it to. I do not spend daily time with Master nor am I His only slave. What I believe I gain from Him is the ability to bring my own desires under submission to another. I revealed a bit about myself in another thread, but I have not done so in this one.

I am one who had to carry the load of single parenthood alone for many years with very few "partners" in between to be of comfort or assistance. So, I have always had to rely on myself to take my family through life. My children are grown now - my "baby" is 21 and leaving my nest to live on his own. I gave up many things (including my submissive nature) to raise my children and only now have the freedom to re-visit and explore it. Unfortunately, many things have changed over the years and I have A LOT to learn before I'm ready to seek a real, physical Master.

I do know I have a tremendous amount of "power" to exchange with the right Master/Mistress (I have served both because I loved each in Their own right). My desire to please one who cares for, loves, praises and disciplines me will test the mettle of One so inclined to push my boundaries. My Master says I am a loving, obedient slave and the One who attains me will be special indeed. Perhaps as I gain more knowledge of Who it is I seek, I can better define those areas that will keep me in humble service to One that understands the precious gift I have to give.

Esclava

Catalina, my slave/partner has gone through a very similar process as you. She also had an online Master/Mentor.

To me the most important decision a person can make before he/she enters into a BDSM relationship of any kind is to decide what their needs are. Find out what you want out of a BDSM relationship. My advice would be to experiment a bit before you commit to a TPE relationship. Try some things out in 'real' life; this will help you if you ever decide to go for a TPE relationship. It will give you a better idea of what to expect.

Another advice I can give you is to take your time, do not be in a hurry, have a clear image of how your future partner should be and go for that person, and don’t be content with second best. This does not mean you can not have meaningful short term relationships, I would actually recommend you to play around as much as you can. Go to munches, go to clubs, talk with as many persons as you can and read as much as you can and enjoy your time.

Francisco.

 

[Esclava]

Catalina, my slave/partner has gone through a very similar process as you. She also had an online Master/Mentor.

To me the most important decision a person can make before he/she enters into a BDSM relationship of any kind is to decide what their needs are. Find out what you want out of a BDSM relationship. My advice would be to experiment a bit before you commit to a TPE relationship. Try some things out in 'real' life; this will help you if you ever decide to go for a TPE relationship. It will give you a better idea of what to expect.

Another advice I can give you is to take your time, do not be in a hurry, have a clear image of how your future partner should be and go for that person, and don’t be content with second best. This does not mean you can not have meaningful short term relationships, I would actually recommend you to play around as much as you can. Go to munches, go to clubs, talk with as many persons as you can and read as much as you can and enjoy your time.

Francisco.

This one thanks you for your patient advice, MFrancisco and it has been taken to heart. Yes, I am learning and Master J teaches me many things, but I do feel You are correct in the direction You have suggested I take. He has brought me back from a very bad real life relationship that left me so battered (emotionally and physically) it almost forced me to never think as a submissive again.

Be well, MFrancisco and know that You have delivered sound advice to one who knows the value of Your words.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Responsibility

The discussions we have been having lately in Literotica have started a thought process in me. A question keeps arising to which I would like to invite my fellow literoticans to give their opinion on.

Who carries the responsibility in a TPE?
Has the slave always to obey and if not when not?
Is there a point when the morals of the slave have to become more important than that of the Owner?

In the ideal circumstances the answers are easy. The Dominant carries the responsibility for all actions and decisions, and the answers are easily given. But is this a realistic point of view?

Let me put forward the following hypothetical situations; I would like to see the ideas of others about it

Slave has the following hard limits: pain from others, scat, and animals.
The slave at entering the TPE relationship gives up all of their rights to have hard limits, but did inform their owner about it. The Dominant agreed to take the hard limits into account but made clear that the decision was always theirs to make on the slaves behalf.

Slave and Owner are at a club; the slave has been tied to a St. Andrews Cross, is blindfolded, and is being flogged publicly by the Dominant. A crowd starts to slowly appear around the flogging, one of the spectators asks the Dominant if he can try out how much the slave can take. To the horror of the slave the Dominant gives his permission to the spectator; this is the first time the slave will be flogged by another and it comes as an absolute surprise, no preparation has been done by the Dominant.

Questions:
How should the slave react?
Is it fair of the Dominant to do this?
Does the Dominant have the right to do this?
How does it fall into the SSC code if that is to be adhered to?

Francisco

 

[Etoile]

Re: Responsibility

Questions:
How should the slave react?
Is it fair of the Dominant to do this?
Does the Dominant have the right to do this?
How does it fall into the SSC code if that is to be adhered to?

An interesting situation!

(1) I would think that the slave should accept the flogging. Later he or she can discuss what happened with the dominant.
(2) Yes, it's fair. The dominant has (hopefully) remembered that "pain from others" was stated as a hard limit, and made the decision to allow it anyway.
(3) Yes. The slave has given their blanket consent to the dominant. The dominant, incidentally, is also the one who has to deal with the repercussions of his or her decision to allow this. If the slave is emotionally or mentally wounded by what happened, it is the dominant's responsibility to deal with that as well in an appropriate manner.
(4) I believe this is probably SSC. I feel that a dominant should always consider their sub's safety first - it is paramount. (What good is a broken slave?) The dominant is also responsible to evaluate the person who will be doing the flogging and make sure they will do it in a safe and sane manner. And yes, it's consensual - this is TPE, the slave has given consent already.

These are just my preliminary thoughts though. I look forward to reading others' thoughts on Francisco's described situation.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Responsibility

Questions:
How should the slave react?
Is it fair of the Dominant to do this?
Does the Dominant have the right to do this?
How does it fall into the SSC code if that is to be adhered to?

Francisco

IMOHO and limited experience, my first thoughts are:

1. The slave will verbalize submission to Master's desires and ASK, publicly, for a safeword to be used in this situation.

2. All will never be fair in TPE. Master has made the decision and his decision is final. There is NO negotiation "in scene."

3. Yes. Slave has given up the right to deny any act that is desired by Master. Slave's only right is the right to give pleasure to Master - no matter what is required.

4. Whether it is safe or not will be up to Master to decide. If he does not announce a safeword for slave, IMO, he crosses the line for safe. Sane? Possibly, but again, without a publicly announced safeword to reassure slave that Master has their best interest at heart, I can't say that this particular act would fall in the realm of sane. Consensual? Oh, because consent is given with the TPE, the point can't be argued now.

My biggest issue is that Master steps over the line IF slave requests a public safeword and Master chooses to deny that request to slave. If it were me and Master denied me a safeword, I would prefer to take an inhuman punishment at Master's hands - than suffer at the hands of another with nothing to put a stop to it - should I need Master to investigate my well being. Most Masters don't deal well with public humiliation, but if Master crosses any of the SSC lines...Just speaking for myself, I would publicly humiliate him to get his attention.

Edited the last sentence to read: Most Masters don't deal well with public humiliation, but if Master crosses any of the SSC lines, in a situation like this...Just speaking for myself, I would publicly humiliate him to get his attention.

Esclava

 

[ownedsubgal]

Re: Responsibility

How should the slave react?
Is it fair of the Dominant to do this?
Does the Dominant have the right to do this?
How does it fall into the SSC code if that is to be adhered to?

Francisco

how should the slave react? by doing their best to take the flogging in the proper manner, with the proper attitude of service to their Master beying top priority above ALL other things.

is it fair? that is difficult to say...a Master does not have to be fair to that which he owns. but considering the fact that nothing inhumane was done to the slave, when the Master has the right to do all manner of atrocious things, i would say yes, that is fair.

does he have the right? yes, absolutely.

how does it fall into SSC? it does not, but not all believe in SSC and a Master/slave relationship certainly is not required to be SSC.

 

[sunfox]

Re: Responsibility

Who carries the responsibility in a TPE?
Has the slave always to obey and if not when not?
Is there a point when the morals of the slave have to become more important than that of the Owner?

The Dominant carries the responsibility in a TPE by the very definition, in my opinion.

The slave should always obey. But being human, there may always be a breaking point for an individual, which I will come back to later.

Yes, there is a point where the slave's morals should become, if not MORE important, then equally important.

Slave has the following hard limits: pain from others, scat, and animals.
The slave at entering the TPE relationship gives up all of their rights to have hard limits, but did inform their owner about it. The Dominant agreed to take the hard limits into account but made clear that the decision was always theirs to make on the slaves behalf.

Slave and Owner are at a club; the slave has been tied to a St. Andrews Cross, is blindfolded, and is being flogged publicly by the Dominant. A crowd starts to slowly appear around the flogging, one of the spectators asks the Dominant if he can try out how much the slave can take. To the horror of the slave the Dominant gives his permission to the spectator; this is the first time the slave will be flogged by another and it comes as an absolute surprise, no preparation has been done by the Dominant.

Questions:
How should the slave react?
Is it fair of the Dominant to do this?
Does the Dominant have the right to do this?
How does it fall into the SSC code if that is to be adhered to?

Francisco

Disclaimer: I am only answering from my point of view.

I think in this particular situation I would not be hugely upset. Nervous, yes. But I would think if you are to the point where your relationship has evolved to a TPE, you know your partner well enough to know that you can trust them to see to your well-being.

Yes, it is fair of the Dominant to make the choice to push a hard limit in a TPE.

Yes, the Dominant has the right to do this.

The SSC part is where I start to waver. I'm sure you knew that was coming.

In this situation, I would be able to handle the breaking of a hard limit. Again, this is just me. However. If it were either of the other two of your listed hard limits... I would not be able to handle it.

I don't tell him I have a hard limit lightly. When I have said something is a hard limit... I mean diamond hard. I cannot deal with that particular act, for some reason in my mind. Animals, because it is a horrendous cruelty and abuse in my mind to do that to an animal. Scat, because it just makes me vomit repeatedly to even think about it, much less do it.

I would hope that knowing me as his property, he would know what it would do to me mentally to break either of those taboos with me, and would think long and hard about the cost to my mental well-being before facetiously deciding to tell me to do either thing.

SSC doesn't have to mean I have the right to say no. What it means to me is that he would never do something to me that would permanently injure me, even invisibly. That he knows what I cannot take, even in my love and respect for him, and will not force such a situation upon me.

I'm tired, and I don't know if this came out the way I wanted it to. Feel free to question me if you don't understand, or don't agree, or whatever.

Good question, Francisco.

 

[Esclava]

Agreed, it is a good question.

I have thought some more about the earlier post and I still stand by it, but I have questions for clarification:

Yes, in TPE, Master (theoretically) has ALL the responsibility. Master is supposed to push slave's limits, but doesn't pushing hard limits push the envelope on trust in the relationship? Especially since this public flogging by another is completely by surprise? Is there no way to hold Master accountable for what will be a mistake if slave is injured or worse?

If slave is to "take the flogging in the proper manner with the proper attitude", does that mean that slave is to take it even unto serious injury? With no way to stop it to have Master check, how does slave inform Master that serious injury is occurring? Or is it ok for slave to be seriously injured and no one, especially Master, care?

Also agreed, SSC does not give slave the ability to say no and if M/s have not agreed to be bound by SSC, the point is moot. But if they have, then there has to be a way for slave to remind Master (gently or otherwise) that his request is crossing the line. If there is not, I can see how easy it is for many subs to wind up scarred emotionally (and physically) or dead.

Granted, by the time M/s get to TPE, each should know the other well enough to have faith that Master will take reasonable (safe and sane) care of his property to ensure it is returned to him in, substantially, the same condition in which it was loaned. However, if slave cannot trust Master not to push a hard limit, particularly - without warning and in public, how can slave trust him to take care of slave when someone other than Master is in control?

Esclava

 

[Pure]

Question about 'eternity of contract':

How does this work exactly:

Termination of Contract

This contract will never under any condition or circumstance be terminated. The contract in any form can never be terminated by Master or Submissive, irrespective of reason. If difficulties arise, they have committed to work to find a solution which will preserve the special bond they share on this day. If necessary, they agree to seek professional help to maintain the relationship.

The contract can only be replaced by another contract that has this same rule in it.
Both Master and Submissive have made an informed commitment of their own free will to be Master and slave to each other for eternity.

There are about 1200 words of specifications preceding, including.


Alteration of Contract

This contract may not be altered, except when both Master and Submissive agree.

So, in fact, the M and the S, while they can't terminate, can simply agree to alter the contract from

old state:

the 1200 words plus "Termination" section, plus further material, to.

new state:
[1200 words deleted; all previous sections; replaced by]
"The master and the slave may do as they please, and have no further duties or responsibilities to each other."

Termination Section

[All following material deleted except lines for signatures]
---

In simple terms, the contract specifying duties and responsibilities with the provision that it's eternal (including the specification that the 'eternal' provision can't be changed), is replaced by one in which only the 'eternal provision' and the signatures remain (all duties and responsibilities being declared non-existent).

Food for thought: Eternal marriage contracts are made under the auspices of the Catholic Church. Some are voided every day, though not by the above method. People walk away from 'eternal' commitments every day.

J.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Responsibility

<snip>is it fair? that is difficult to say...a Master does not have to be fair to that which he owns. but considering the fact that nothing inhumane was done to the slave, when the Master has the right to do all manner of atrocious things, i would say yes, that is fair.

does he have the right? yes, absolutely.

how does it fall into SSC? it does not, but not all believe in SSC and a Master/slave relationship certainly is not required to be SSC.

1. is it fair? that is difficult to say...a Master does not have to be fair to that which he owns. but considering the fact that nothing inhumane was done to the slave, when the Master has the right to do all manner of atrocious things, i would say yes, that is fair.

True, Master does not have to be "fair" to that which he owns, but we don't know that nothing inhumane happened to the slave. If the object was to "try out how much the slave can take," WHO is to say how much is too much in the heat of the moment in a public/group setting where we already know the lines of safety can be very easily crossed because of the heightened passions and emotions all around? Master? IMO, If Master is taken in enough to allow another to push a hard limit in public with no prior discussion, Master places himself in a position to be carried by the tidal wave that is destined to roll over all involved - spectators included.

2. how does it fall into SSC? it does not, but not all believe in SSC and a Master/slave relationship certainly is not required to be SSC.


IMO, most of this is also a true statement. But even if the M/s relationship is not contractual, if there is not exclusion whereby slave can prompt Master of the dangers inherent in a decision, why not just kill slave and move on to the next? Pushing the hard limit, in this situation, will damage the trust. And if the trust is severely damaged or dead (and possibly the slave as well) ... what is left? Omg, I see so many steps I would expect Master to take as precautions, for my safety, in such a scene; but they are WAY TOO MANY to be prudently taken in the heat of such a moment.

It may sound dramatic, but all here know how BDSM has suffered for just such situations that got out of hand quickly; and if Master doesn't know the stranger asking to play with his property, how will he be able to judge when inhumane treatment has occurred, SSC been violated, or slave has been injured beyond Master's ability to repair?

Edited to add: Alright, I'll be quiet now. I still have many, many questions (this is very important as I seek to define the relationship I am looking for), but perhaps I'll ask in due time. Thank you.

Esclava

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hmmm. I'm totally unfamiliar with online D/s. Can we maybe start a discussion about what "virtual TPE" is like as opposed to RL TPE?

It can be the same emotionally. the physical aspects of the relationship are different, but IMHO can be made up for with mental if the person you are submitting to has the ability to do that. Trust and understanding must be in place same as real life, not something easily done when you cant see- feel- hear a person but for on a few occasions. Most of all i think you need to have the need to submit and be totally honest with your Dominant and yourself about everything, and be able to express it in type. It can be heartbreaking and frustrating but with a person who is right for you it can be the same (maybe not equal) to real life, if that makes sense