Where are all the men?

[JMohegan]

What level of exposed female body parts = "wad of cash sticking out"? How do women learn the exact skirt length that will set off men's rape reflex so they can avoid it?

He didn't make that simplistic comparison, Shank. You chopped off the relevant part of his post.

See the bold part below. The comparable "vulnerable position" = getting drunk and passing out at a party with strangers.

The 'don't blame the victim' crowd goes overboard, IMO.

I don't see it as 'never questioning HIS actions', because HIS actions are very clearly criminal.

No shit a woman should be able to get drunk at a party full of strangers, pass out in a bedroom, and expect to wake up unraped. I should be able to walk down any street in the country at any time of the night with a visible wad of hundred dollar bills sticking out of my pocket and not worry about getting mugged/murdered.

The world isn't 'right' and will never entirely be 'right'. As such, don't put yourself in vulnerable positions. This is almost never questioned in other crimes- if some guy did stroll through a bad neighborhood with a wad of cash sticking out and got killed, people would be talking Darwin award. There's no argument that the murder would be wrong, but people would highlight the fact that he stupidly put himself into a position where being assaulted and/or killed was a very strong possibility.

 

[Netzach]

Hell, that sounds exactly like me the few times I crossdressed and went to town while still living in San Francisco...

I swear, trying to talk sense into CD's at times about safety and vulnerability is like talking to a wall - I was just thinking as I typed this this applies to men dressed too.

 

[eastern sun]

What level of exposed female body parts = "wad of cash sticking out"? How do women learn the exact skirt length that will set off men's rape reflex so they can avoid it?

I don't think it's the clothes. I think it's the getting drunk and passing out in a house full of strangers.

At least that has been my experience.

edited to add - oops, just realized JMo made the same comment. So. . . . I agree.

 

[JMohegan]

And I wonder why men on the hunt have a bad reputation.


YC - I am sorry if I made this personal, it was not my intention to attack you. Many men have similar patterns. So many do that a tern has developed for such actions.

What does it mean to when we talk about a predator grooming an intended victim?

They take their time in developing a trusting relationship with the intended victim then when they feel the time is right they begin to slowly integrate inappropriate touches and behaviors into the relationship.​

Help me understand how the actions you describe are not predator grooming, please.

And thanks for continuing to return to the discussion.

Shank, I know you're a professional when it comes to attempts to reduce the incidence of rape, so I assume these lines of reasoning have some demonstrable efficiency with targeted males. But I have to say, what you're saying here doesn't resonate with me at all.

I'm not so sure that "men on the hunt" have a worse reputation than women on the prowl, but even if they do I don't really give a flying fuck. I can only control one guy's behavior, and that's mine. As long as I don't break the law, what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom is nobody's business except mine and the woman's to/with whom I'm doing it.

Of course, as Keroin said, my reputation may suffer if I act in a way she finds objectionable, but that's a risk I take as an individual. I reject the notion that I am somehow responsible for the reputation of all males.

With regard to "predator grooming," as long as I'm dealing with an adult of sound mind and body, I say it's up to her to decide what is or is not inappropriate touching and behavior, and to speak up if she deems it to be so. Women are not children, and I reject the idea that I should be responsible for treating them as such.

 

[Shankara20]

Shank, I know you're a professional when it comes to attempts to reduce the incidence of rape, so I assume these lines of reasoning have some demonstrable efficiency with targeted males. But I have to say, what you're saying here doesn't resonate with me at all.

Nope - "no demonstrable efficiency with targeted males" at all. I have left my PC program talk behind here and let loose with my unedited feelings. I don't expect to convert or convince here, but learn how people feel about these matters in a relative open discussion that includes many folk I have come to know and respect but not always agree with.

I am exhausted tonight - more hospital related work that is a bummer - but after some sleep and my morning tea I'll attempt to recover from a few stumbles I made in the some posts today.

's to all...

 

[ZRT]

But where is the discussing about what HE can do to not rape or what the community can do to reduce the likelihood HE will act?

The part where we emphasize time and again that nonconsensual sex is rape and rapists are criminals and criminals need to go to jail.

My entire point is that making yourself vulnerable doesn't absolve anybody of taking advantage of the vulnerability. But people still need to learn not to make themselves vulnerable.

Education is obviously part of the necessary prevention. And fuck yes, lock the motherfuckers up.

Shit, I'd be fine with executing rapists the way the military has provided for in the UCMJ, if making rape a capital offense wouldn't pose an increased danger to rape victims.

I am not soft on rapists. I'm not saying that shitheads can't help themselves because she was wearing a short skirt, or 'she was right there man, you would've done it too' or anything like that.

But we coach people to take precautions against other crimes and frankly we mock people who don't and suffer from lack of caution pretty damned regularly in this society, but with rape we're all 'don't blame the victim' no matter what damn dumb thing they do.

 

[Keroin]

What about prostitutes? Can they be raped? If so, are they not at fault for putting themselves in a dangerous situation? Should we, at least partially, blame them for not exercising common sense? (Walking alone, dark street, skimpy clothing, going off with strange men, etc)

I'm not saying these are my opinions, just throwing that out there.

 

[Netzach]

What about prostitutes? Can they be raped? If so, are they not at fault for putting themselves in a dangerous situation? Should we, at least partially, blame them for not exercising common sense? (Walking alone, dark street, skimpy clothing, going off with strange men, etc)

I'm not saying these are my opinions, just throwing that out there.

As a sex worker, though not an escort, I was fully aware that I was in a high risk line of work, and a thin line of communications and personal assertion was between me and rape murder and mayhem. Pyscho client was just an occupational risk and my not encountering him was partly the privilege of having other gigs so I didn't ever need to overlook a red flag, and mostly big fat luck. There are things I did to help myself along. I did only one outcall under unusual circumstances. I didn't return phone calls that just smelled stalkery. I always kicked those gorgeous shoes off to work, and to move if I had to.

Streetwalking is universally acknowledged to be the most dangerous form of sex work. It's not the only one or the benchmark, at least in the industrial world.

Hey, you did insane dangerous shit for a living, you know the rush.

 

[Keroin]

As a sex worker, though not an escort, I was fully aware that I was in a high risk line of work, and a thin line of communications and personal assertion was between me and rape murder and mayhem. Pyscho client was just an occupational risk and my not encountering him was partly the privilege of having other gigs so I didn't ever need to overlook a red flag, and mostly big fat luck. There are things I did to help myself along. I did only one outcall under unusual circumstances. I didn't return phone calls that just smelled stalkery. I always kicked those gorgeous shoes off to work, and to move if I had to.

Streetwalking is universally acknowledged to be the most dangerous form of sex work. It's not the only one or the benchmark, at least in the industrial world.

Hey, you did insane dangerous shit for a living, you know the rush.

Yeah, I got shit kicked on a regular basis, and death or something close to it was omni-present, I know the deal. I was thinking more of your low rent variety sex trade worker in this instance, though, not the savvy, boot warrior that is you. Guess I should have been more specific.

Gotta run...literally.

 

[eastern sun]

What about prostitutes? Can they be raped? If so, are they not at fault for putting themselves in a dangerous situation? Should we, at least partially, blame them for not exercising common sense? (Walking alone, dark street, skimpy clothing, going off with strange men, etc)

I'm not saying these are my opinions, just throwing that out there.

One of my friends tricked regularly for crack money, working the streets in some of Brooklyn's worst neighborhoods. When she finally tried to give up drugs, she missed the tricking. She liked the power it gave her. And she liked the "excitement."

She'd been beaten up. She'd been raped. By both her boyfriend and her tricks. When you're living in her kind of chaos, getting beat up and/or raped is part of the landscape. It's serving its purpose.

Though I think men should be prosecuted for rape, I think women hold equal responsibility for their own safety.

 

[YourCaptor]

Sorry I misread your line - I see now that you are saying that it was you who were protesting her saying "no". As I understand it, at times, you would rather pressure past her protest then discuss her concerns.

I suppose I could sit down and discuses the issue, but I don’t. These issues can be worked out without language. Even if the woman is not into it at all, I think sex goes far beyond pleasing each other. It can be one sided. When she’s not into it, then I would want her to tolerate it.

It's difficult to explain, like stealing a kiss. One person out of the blue surprising and kissing another. That doesn't sound too good on paper, but in reality it can work and then some.

And I wonder why men on the hunt have a bad reputation.

I’m not a representative of men, I don’t try to be like men, I don’t even like how most men behave. I do what I do. I don’t associate with society, I’m just looking in. Since this particular behavior correlates with other men, I am interested as to why. I’m not gonna be your hero though,

I also don’t think women simply paint one big schema of men and judge them accordingly. Individuals are still important.

Ah yes - stranger danger. Never mind that 90% of people sexually assaulted know the perpetrator - the rapist is almost always someone they know, not some strange in the dark with bloodshot eyes.

The women I’m with, at the point that we get to sexual relations, they know quite well that I am not aggressive. I never intend to harm them, they know that and trust that. However I am ridiculously domineering in a relationship that is that close. When she’s not entirely up for it, I make it clear that she should get up to it. While I may herd them and bend them until I’m happy, I don’t lash out.

You silver tongued devil you, your prowess must be legendary.

And I wonder why men on the hunt have a bad reputation.


YC - I am sorry if I made this personal, it was not my intention to attack you. Many men have similar patterns. So many do that a tern has developed for such actions.

What does it mean to when we talk about a predator grooming an intended victim?

They take their time in developing a trusting relationship with the intended victim then when they feel the time is right they begin to slowly integrate inappropriate touches and behaviors into the relationship.​

Help me understand how the actions you describe are not predator grooming, please.

And thanks for continuing to return to the discussion.

I think I’m different from a grooming predator in that when she wont at least try to accommodate my “inappropriate touching”, then I can’t be satisfied and the relationship is over. I’m not aggressive, I have no intention to hurt these girls, they understood that. As far as I know they just thought me weird and perverted.

Well, I would say that if he's looking for something very much more specific its probably going to be difficult to find in women of all ages, in which case, he REALLY needs to make sure his sub-dar is up to snuff, maybe by settling for some of these other types of submissives a few times. Only for the purposes of giving his sub-dar a little exercise, of course.

Ha ha, I think that’s what got me into this disorderly discussion.

Although I have been considering fuck buddies. Someone has been trying to sell me on that one.

I’m not sure if I can even do it though, I need a bond for sex.

Hmm, if I was to try fuck buddies, I think I could have one very cute one right now. The other day we where talking and she tells me something like, “I’m not even really looking for a boyfriend, its just too much to think about you know, birthdays and feelings.” She is very domme though, could be interesting.

 

[Shankara20]

He didn't make that simplistic comparison, Shank. You chopped off the relevant part of his post.

See the bold part below. The comparable "vulnerable position" = getting drunk and passing out at a party with strangers.

Sorry for the confusion - I was self-serving editing from the second paragraph

"if some guy did stroll through a bad neighborhood with a wad of cash sticking out and got killed, people would be talking Darwin award",​

but your point is still valid.

Shank = busted once again....

 

[Shankara20]

I swear, trying to talk sense into CD's at times about safety and vulnerability is like talking to a wall - I was just thinking as I typed this this applies to men dressed too.

hee hee - I slipped into my silly mode back there for a moment, hope you have removed from the 180 deg turn. Whiplash can be a bitch.

 

[intothewoods]

But I think the point that was raised - that it's passing out drunk at a party - and not what a person is wearing that's the risky behavior. But there's also a lot more peer pressure to drink at a party than there is to walk down the street with a wad of cash sticking out of your pocket.

I have no interest in absolving women of responsibility or making women out to be helpless, defenseless creatures. But neither are men neandrethals who are incapable of controlling their dicks, right? If both the man and woman are drinking and end up having sex, absent other details of force, I'm very likely to file that under "shit happens." Bad decisions made when drunk. Women have as much responsibility to communicate about consent as do men. Men are not entitled to sex because a woman wears a short skirt and drinks too much.

 

[satindesire]

But I think the point that was raised - that it's passing out drunk at a party - and not what a person is wearing that's the risky behavior. But there's also a lot more peer pressure to drink at a party than there is to walk down the street with a wad of cash sticking out of your pocket.

I have no interest in absolving women of responsibility or making women out to be helpless, defenseless creatures. But neither are men neandrethals who are incapable of controlling their dicks, right? If both the man and woman are drinking and end up having sex, absent other details of force, I'm very likely to file that under "shit happens." Bad decisions made when drunk. Women have as much responsibility to communicate about consent as do men. Men are not entitled to sex because a woman wears a short skirt and drinks too much.

/clap

 

[Shankara20]

I'm not so sure that "men on the hunt" have a worse reputation than women on the prowl, but even if they do I don't really give a flying fuck. I can only control one guy's behavior, and that's mine. As long as I don't break the law, what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom is nobody's business except mine and the woman's to/with whom I'm doing it.

It is your business as long as it is done with consent given be all involved parties.

Of course, as Keroin said, my reputation may suffer if I act in a way she finds objectionable, but that's a risk I take as an individual. I reject the notion that I am somehow responsible for the reputation of all males.

I agree, you do not need to take on responsibility for all males - you are free to go your own way. I would suggest that in the future you reconsider that thought should you ever find yourself ready to complain about the courts and family service agencies that are heavily biased toward demonizing men out-of-hand. When most cops walk into a domestic violence situation it is assumed that the male is the aggressor. Most courts refuse to even consider that women are abusers. A huge case must be made to give child custody to dad over mom. When meeting a new female most men must get by the "is this one save" mental question.

I do suggest that it will take men setting a standard of behavior for other men to reverse this bias - again, you are free to go your own way.

With regard to "predator grooming," as long as I'm dealing with an adult of sound mind and body, I say it's up to her to decide what is or is not inappropriate touching and behavior, and to speak up if she deems it to be so. Women are not children, and I reject the idea that I should be responsible for treating them as such.

I fully agree here as well. I suggest the best way to assess the "sound mind and body" is to set some educated internal standard for making sure you have full consent. "Go till you hear no" is a little weak for me, but then I have been educated on the impact of past abuse on the ability to set good boundaries. I would rather stumble through something like "you ok with what we are doing?" then unknowingly contribute to more victimization.

When Topping with full consent for the bottom I have had safeword called when she was triggered and past issues surfaced. It made for a unsatisfying flogging that night - but trust in me was reinforced. In the vanilla world that "SSC - lets talk about what we are going to do - what are your limits and safeword" discussion does not happen. That is a shame. If we expect to act that way in the BDSM world, why can't we expect people to act that way in the "let's get a piece of ass" world?

 

[satindesire]

I fully agree here as well. I suggest the best way to assess the "sound mind and body" is to set some educated internal standard for making sure you have full consent. "Go till you hear no" is a little weak for me, but then I have been educated on the impact of past abuse on the ability to set good boundaries. I would rather stumble through something like "you ok with what we are doing?" then unknowingly contribute to more victimization.

When Topping with full consent for the bottom I have had safeword called when she was triggered and past issues surfaced. It made for a unsatisfying flogging that night - but trust in me was reinforced. In the vanilla world that "SSC - lets talk about what we are going to do - what are your limits and safeword" discussion does not happen. That is a shame. If we expect to act that way in the BDSM world, why can't we expect people to act that way in the "let's get a piece of ass" world?

Wow, this is just....wow. Awesome.

Do you know how much LESS immature bullshit I would have had to deal with in high school and college would more men have thought like this?!

 

[Shankara20]

The part where we emphasize time and again that nonconsensual sex is rape and rapists are criminals and criminals need to go to jail.

My entire point is that making yourself vulnerable doesn't absolve anybody of taking advantage of the vulnerability. But people still need to learn not to make themselves vulnerable.

Education is obviously part of the necessary prevention. And fuck yes, lock the motherfuckers up.

Shit, I'd be fine with executing rapists the way the military has provided for in the UCMJ, if making rape a capital offense wouldn't pose an increased danger to rape victims.

I am not soft on rapists. I'm not saying that shitheads can't help themselves because she was wearing a short skirt, or 'she was right there man, you would've done it too' or anything like that.

But we coach people to take precautions against other crimes and frankly we mock people who don't and suffer from lack of caution pretty damned regularly in this society, but with rape we're all 'don't blame the victim' no matter what damn dumb thing they do.

I do think we need to discuss risk reduction - we need to teach to our kids at the very least.

Sending a rapist to jail is fine. The bad part is that someone must get raped first. And convection is difficult for a bunch of reasons (fodder for another discussion)

Once again I come to my question, how do we change the mindset that allows for rape in the first place? Can we discuss with the same enthusiasm for to prevent a male from raping as we discuss how a female can avoid being raped?

 

[Shankara20]

What about prostitutes? Can they be raped?

yes

If so, are they not at fault for putting themselves in a dangerous situation? Should we, at least partially, blame them for not exercising common sense? (Walking alone, dark street, skimpy clothing, going off with strange men, etc)

I'm not saying these are my opinions, just throwing that out there.

It is not their fault they get raped. They have made a poor decision.

Making a poor decision in not a rape-able offense.

 

[00Syd]

When Topping with full consent for the bottom I have had safeword called when she was triggered and past issues surfaced. It made for a unsatisfying flogging that night - but trust in me was reinforced. In the vanilla world that "SSC - lets talk about what we are going to do - what are your limits and safeword" discussion does not happen. That is a shame. If we expect to act that way in the BDSM world, why can't we expect people to act that way in the "let's get a piece of ass" world?

I think this is absolutely excellent, and I fully agree.

 

[Netzach]

I fully agree here as well. I suggest the best way to assess the "sound mind and body" is to set some educated internal standard for making sure you have full consent. "Go till you hear no" is a little weak for me, but then I have been educated on the impact of past abuse on the ability to set good boundaries. I would rather stumble through something like "you ok with what we are doing?" then unknowingly contribute to more victimization.

If this wrinkles your nose as a Dom because it feels too much like asking permission to get to the next base, I'd say you need to rethink. Granted, everyone's entitled to his style of whatever.

Because it's superfreakinghot in a Daddy paternal, steering, kinda way. It really could be pulled off with the same panache as that ancient post JMo pulled. With less risk of misinterpretation leading to hot water.

Again, I would not trade the legal vulnerability of hetero dudes for a million bucks with my own position. Eek.

 

[Shankara20]

I suppose I could sit down and discuses the issue, but I don’t. These issues can be worked out without language. Even if the woman is not into it at all, I think sex goes far beyond pleasing each other. It can be one sided. When she’s not into it, then I would want her to tolerate it.

If she has decided to tolerate it and has full freedom to say "nope not this time" that go ahead and use her as your recipticle.

I’m not a representative of men, I don’t try to be like men, I don’t even like how most men behave. I do what I do. I don’t associate with society, I’m just looking in. Since this particular behavior correlates with other men, I am interested as to why. I’m not gonna be your hero though,

I also don’t think women simply paint one big schema of men and judge them accordingly. Individuals are still important.

I'm will no longer ask you to be a hero. As I have stated elsewhere I would suggest that in the future you reconsider that thought should you ever find yourself ready to complain about the courts and family service agencies that are heavily biased toward demonizing men out-of-hand.

The women I’m with, at the point that we get to sexual relations, they know quite well that I am not aggressive. I never intend to harm them, they know that and trust that. However I am ridiculously domineering in a relationship that is that close. When she’s not entirely up for it, I make it clear that she should get up to it. While I may herd them and bend them until I’m happy, I don’t lash out.

I think I’m different from a grooming predator in that when she wont at least try to accommodate my “inappropriate touching”, then I can’t be satisfied and the relationship is over. I’m not aggressive, I have no intention to hurt these girls, they understood that. As far as I know they just thought me weird and perverted.

I suggest you consider what the difference is between being "ridiculously domineering", and what aggression looks like from the point of view of the other and then how far they see it from when violence might start.

 

[Shankara20]

But neither are men neandrethals who are incapable of controlling their dicks, right?

I'm not sure that all here feel that is it the man's responsibility to control his dick once he is stimulated...

 

[Shankara20]

If both the man and woman are drinking and end up having sex, absent other details of force, I'm very likely to file that under "shit happens." Bad decisions made when drunk. Women have as much responsibility to communicate about consent as do men. Men are not entitled to sex because a woman wears a short skirt and drinks too much.

I agree. I'm concerned about the men to hold back their liquor consumption while looking for those females that have gone 'round the bent with consumption.

 

[Netzach]

I'm not sure that all here feel that is it the man's responsibility to control his dick once he is stimulated...

It absolutely is.

I also shouldn't be in giant debt because I got diagnosed with an illness, and yet I am.