Where are all the men?

[Shankara20]

Wow, this is just....wow. Awesome.

Do you know how much LESS immature bullshit I would have had to deal with in high school and college would more men have thought like this?!

Wouldn't it be great if high schools taught about consent?

 

[Netzach]

I'm not sure that all here feel that is it the man's responsibility to control his dick once he is stimulated...

Well, then you'd have to make sex less crippling a subject so that people didn't have to go get shitfaced in order to lose enough front brain capacity to pursue it. We're so far from any honest discussion of sex in this culture it's absurd.

 

[00Syd]

Wouldn't it be great if high schools taught about consent?

Yes. I think it should be a standard element of all sex-ed classes.

 

[Shankara20]

It absolutely is.

Shall I start poll?

 

[Shankara20]

Well, then you'd have to make sex less crippling a subject so that people didn't have to go get shitfaced in order to lose enough front brain capacity to pursue it. We're so far from any honest discussion of sex in this culture it's absurd.

are you suggesting that women might not have to get drunk to say "I'd like to fuck" and not be fearful as being seen as a slut?

What the hell is wrong with you - woman?

 

[Shankara20]

Yes. I think it should be a standard element of all sex-ed classes.

Are you suggesting a class that educates about sex something above the basic "part A goes into part B" and "you will get STI's and knocked-up if your not married" stuff?

 

[Shankara20]

In this discussion of "real men" and "ain't it a shame some have been feminized by some women" have we discussed why the feminist movement started?

Have we discussed that it might have been push back from repressive non-consents male domination?

Have we discussed how pissed off some women got about this?

Have we discussed how men who agreed that the repression was wrong often had no clue about how to act but not continue being seen as repressive?

Have we discussed how some women became more powerful and more dominate?

Have we discussed how some men thought being more feminine would be the same as being supportive?

Have we discussed how many women equate a man being "manly" with a man being violent?

Have we discussed how if might be cool to be able to act more "manly" and there being no connection in a woman's mind that he might become violent?

Have we discussed that only men can model to other men what that "manly but not violent" behavior looks like?

just askin'...

 

[00Syd]

Are you suggesting a class that educates about sex something above the basic "part A goes into part B" and "you will get STI's and knocked-up if your not married" stuff?

Yes, I think all facets of sex safety should be discussed. It wasn't until I got to college that I was presented with information on rape, date rape, and consent. For a lot of people, that's too late.

 

[Shankara20]

Yes, I think all facets of sex safety should be discussed. It wasn't until I got to college that I was presented with information on rape, date rape, and consent. For a lot of people, that's too late.

holly shit that would just be wrong!
In Kansas at high school level a parent must opt-in for their child to receive the "part A into part B" stuff - what would they need to do to have them get the full course?

 

[00Syd]

holly shit that would just be wrong!
In Kansas at high school level a parent must opt-in for their child to receive the "part A into part B" stuff - what would they need to do to have them get the full course?

Sacrifice a baby lamb?

 

[JMohegan]

I fully agree here as well. I suggest the best way to assess the "sound mind and body" is to set some educated internal standard for making sure you have full consent. "Go till you hear no" is a little weak for me, but then I have been educated on the impact of past abuse on the ability to set good boundaries. I would rather stumble through something like "you ok with what we are doing?" then unknowingly contribute to more victimization.

When Topping with full consent for the bottom I have had safeword called when she was triggered and past issues surfaced. It made for a unsatisfying flogging that night - but trust in me was reinforced. In the vanilla world that "SSC - lets talk about what we are going to do - what are your limits and safeword" discussion does not happen. That is a shame. If we expect to act that way in the BDSM world, why can't we expect people to act that way in the "let's get a piece of ass" world?

Yes, that does happen in the "vanilla world," Shank. Just not in the same way you do it.

But we've had this conversation before.

Here's an idea. Since you're so keen on individuals taking responsibility for the reputation of their entire gender and consequences resulting therefrom, maybe it would be a good idea to start lecturing females on only saying "no" when they really, absolutely, no demurring, no coyness, no foolin' around, no I'm just need more convincing, no I'm just playing hard to get, but I'm actually walking out the door, fuck you, mean it.

Here's another idea. A woman who is incapable of setting her own boundaries, for whatever reason, should not be alone in the bedroom of a man she barely knows.

And on the subject of triggers and past issues surfacing - you don't need to be mid-flog or mid-fuck for this to happen. An unintentionally painful comment can be made in the course of a casual chat from across the room. And if the one making the comment can't recognize the genuine distress that ensues, safeword or no, then he doesn't know the subject very well. Which gets back to my previous point.

 

[midwestyankee]

Yes. I think it should be a standard element of all sex-ed classes.

This presumes the existence of classes that have more than a one-line curriculum: Just say no.

 

[00Syd]

This presumes the existence of classes that have more than a one-line curriculum: Just say no.

Hey, we may have a long way to go, but we're getting there. Baby steps.

 

[Shankara20]

Yes, that does happen in the "vanilla world," Shank. Just not in the same way you do it.

I know that - my wording might have painted with a broad brush, sorry. I also know that there are places when it does not happen, in my heat of discussion I failed to add needed modifiers and disclaimers. I talk to so many high school males who, when asked "how do you know she wants to have sex", answer "you can tell by the look in her eyes and then you go till you hear No" that I assumed that only a minority of forks have worked out the consent stuff.

Here's an idea. Since you're so keen on individuals taking responsibility for the reputation of their entire gender and consequences resulting therefrom, maybe it would be a good idea to start lecturing females on only saying "no" when they really, absolutely, no demurring, no coyness, no foolin' around, no I'm just need more convincing, no I'm just playing hard to get, but I'm actually walking out the door, fuck you, mean it.

I agree and think it is a grand idea, but as I deal with males I'm looking for ways to talk to them about male behavior.

I can and do suggest that men not play that game and just walk away from a women who wants to play. I hate aggressive flirting as a psydo-power play and think if men call women on it we will all be better off.

And on the subject of triggers and past issues surfacing - you don't need to be mid-flog or mid-fuck for this to happen. An unintentionally painful comment can be made in the course of a casual chat from across the room. And if the one making the comment can't recognize the genuine distress that ensues, safeword or no, then he doesn't know the subject very well. Which gets back to my previous point.

I agree - but I was only talking about mid-fuck triggers.

 

[intothewoods]

I agree. I'm concerned about the men to hold back their liquor consumption while looking for those females that have gone 'round the bent with consumption.

How often do you think this happens? Have there been any studies about this?

Wouldn't it be great if high schools taught about consent?

As Netz has said, it's more than consent. An honest discussion about sex should be required.

Well, then you'd have to make sex less crippling a subject so that people didn't have to go get shitfaced in order to lose enough front brain capacity to pursue it. We're so far from any honest discussion of sex in this culture it's absurd.

Agreed.

Yes, that does happen in the "vanilla world," Shank. Just not in the same way you do it.

But we've had this conversation before.

Here's an idea. Since you're so keen on individuals taking responsibility for the reputation of their entire gender and consequences resulting therefrom, maybe it would be a good idea to start lecturing females on only saying "no" when they really, absolutely, no demurring, no coyness, no foolin' around, no I'm just need more convincing, no I'm just playing hard to get, but I'm actually walking out the door, fuck you, mean it.

Here's another idea. A woman who is incapable of setting her own boundaries, for whatever reason, should not be alone in the bedroom of a man she barely knows.

I'm fine with that. Everyone should be able to set boundaries. It's as useful as learning how to fry an egg.

 

[Keroin]

In this discussion of "real men" and "ain't it a shame some have been feminized by some women" have we discussed why the feminist movement started?

Have we discussed that it might have been push back from repressive non-consents male domination?

Have we discussed how pissed off some women got about this?

Have we discussed how men who agreed that the repression was wrong often had no clue about how to act but not continue being seen as repressive?

Have we discussed how some women became more powerful and more dominate?

Have we discussed how some men thought being more feminine would be the same as being supportive?

Have we discussed how many women equate a man being "manly" with a man being violent?

Have we discussed how if might be cool to be able to act more "manly" and there being no connection in a woman's mind that he might become violent?

Have we discussed that only men can model to other men what that "manly but not violent" behavior looks like?

just askin'...

Have we discussed the rack of lamb I had last night? Or the mud cake? Have we?? What about the mojitos? Oh the mojitos...sigh.

(Sorry, Shank, having a hard time being serious today. I'm on a food high. I'll be back later with comments).

 

[Homburg]

I agree, you do not need to take on responsibility for all males - you are free to go your own way. I would suggest that in the future you reconsider that thought should you ever find yourself ready to complain about the courts and family service agencies that are heavily biased toward demonizing men out-of-hand. When most cops walk into a domestic violence situation it is assumed that the male is the aggressor. Most courts refuse to even consider that women are abusers. A huge case must be made to give child custody to dad over mom. When meeting a new female most men must get by the "is this one save" mental question.

I do suggest that it will take men setting a standard of behavior for other men to reverse this bias - again, you are free to go your own way.

I am responsible for three males - myself and my two sons. I agree that it impractical to be responsible for all of mankind. And? I am not responsible for them, but I am responsible for the image of men in general. Each of us is.

I've seen it argued on the political side that we are responsible for basically everyone, that we collectively build our image, etc. Many liberals here have no problem with presuming social responsibility. Why the sudden push-back on being responsible for the sexual/gender image of males?

And I flat fail to accept the idea that the woman is somehow at fault if she is playing hard to get by saying "no" when she means "maybe". I've gotten those sort of no's before. I stopped what I was doing, and turned it off. Done. The woman in question got a little tiffed, and she was told that I don't play those sorts of games. No means no, and thus we're done. There doesn't need to be a class telling women not to do this. Enough women finding the man they're trying to toy with turning away from them will be education enough.

It's a headgame and a power-trip. Even as a teenager I saw through that crap. The incident referenced above happened when I was 19. If more men were aware of it and willful enough to treat the issue how it deserves, there would be less headgames to contend with.

Wouldn't it be great if high schools taught about consent?

I would be happy with basic sex ed to begin with. Too many places don't even do that. And it should be opt-out, not opt-in. It's health education.

 

[Keroin]

I'm amazed at how many men don't see what a turn off aggression is for many women. I honestly can't remember, back in the day, how many times I was approached to dance when I was out with girlfriends and the exchange would go like this...

Man: "Do you want to dance?"
Me: (Very politely). "No thanks."
Man: "Oh, come on."
Me: (Not as polite) "No thank you. I'm talking to my girlfriends."
Man: "So what? Come with me."
Me: "I said no, now fuck off!"

If the guy had listened to me the first time, maybe, later I would have considered it. But by pressuring me...cancelled. Seriously, he would have vastly increased his chances of being with me if he had had the respect for me, and the confidence in himself, to walk away.

Confidence is very sexy, aggression is just annoying. I never liked it, my girlfriends never liked it, I don't think I've met a woman who has liked it.

Men, do you find women respond favorably to aggression?

 

[Homburg]

Men, do you find women respond favorably to aggression?

The two in my life do, absolutely. But it is aggression from me, and within the sphere of the dynamic we have. Outside that, not so much.

There are women that do respond well to aggression though. Okay, "well" may be a misnomer. They respond in a manner that rewards the aggression. If it didn't work, men wouldn't do it.

It is annoying to many men too. I know I've been asked more than once to clear off some aggressive lout that wouldn't take no for an answer. To be honest, it provides a special sort of joy for me to be asked to do that. It's one of the few times when I get to use the "large, intimidating guy" portion of my personal resume, and not feel guilty about it.

 

[Keroin]

The two in my life do, absolutely. But it is aggression from me, and within the sphere of the dynamic we have. Outside that, not so much.

There are women that do respond well to aggression though. Okay, "well" may be a misnomer. They respond in a manner that rewards the aggression. If it didn't work, men wouldn't do it.

It is annoying to many men too. I know I've been asked more than once to clear off some aggressive lout that wouldn't take no for an answer. To be honest, it provides a special sort of joy for me to be asked to do that. It's one of the few times when I get to use the "large, intimidating guy" portion of my personal resume, and not feel guilty about it.

Aggression within an established context, yes, sexy. Aggression in day to day life, not cool.

I feel for men. I know how much courage it takes to approach a stranger and swing the bat, so I'm always respectful and polite when I have to say no but when I'm pushed to the point where I have to be an asshole...that just makes me... argh! And you just know these guys go back to their buddies and tell them all about the stuck up blonde bitch who thinks her shit doesn't stink.

You just keep on keepin' on with that "large, intimidating guy" thing. We need more Homburgs out there.

 

[Homburg]

Aggression within an established context, yes, sexy. Aggression in day to day life, not cool.

Yup, pretty much.

I feel for men. I know how much courage it takes to approach a stranger and swing the bat, so I'm always respectful and polite when I have to say no but when I'm pushed to the point where I have to be an asshole...that just makes me... argh! And you just know these guys go back to their buddies and tell them all about the stuck up blonde bitch who thinks her shit doesn't stink.

I've never done it. I can't even imagine a way to do it in which I would not feel like an idiot. I dislike bars and clubs, and don't find myself looking at someone across a room and thinking that I might want to be with that person. Every relationship and encounter I've had in my life has started with conversation, getting to know the other person, etc. Hell, I even do it at play parties with random bottoms that want me to tie them up. A little conversation first is basically a requirement.

Maybe I'm a coward about it. Dunno. I've never examined my motivations in not trolling at bars. It seemed like such a no-brainer. I agree that it takes balls to approach like that. It just never really occurred to me to try it. I'm used to being the one that gets approached.

You just keep on keepin' on with that "large, intimidating guy" thing. We need more Homburgs out there.

Goodness, I hope not. I would probably resoundingly dislike me if I met myself.

 

[ZRT]

Once again I come to my question, how do we change the mindset that allows for rape in the first place? Can we discuss with the same enthusiasm for to prevent a male from raping as we discuss how a female can avoid being raped?

We need to grow the fuck up about sex. We're so damned repressed about it that most people retain a locker room us and them mentality about it for life.

I mean, hey, I love fucking. I'm posting at god damned Literotica in the BDSM section, which gives a pretty good indication of my tastes and enthusiasms.

But it's not how I define my life. I don't score points by the women I fuck. I don't regard women as objects for my usage, beyond the objectification that takes place in the satisfaction of mutual kinks. If I get the urge to show off a woman I've got with me, it's because I think she's a cool person, not a nice piece of ass.

So long as sex is a barometer of life success, to be pursued with aggressive energy, it's going to generate dangerous attitudes.

How to change that? Fuck if I know.

Where we do need to redefine 'manhood' is by keying on responsibility, as I said earlier. If you honestly believe that your cock is some magical deity that must be satisfied by regular sacrifices of pussy, you're not a man. You're a fucking animal and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[JMohegan]

Men, do you find women respond favorably to aggression?

Ohhh, yes.

Except when they don't.

Some guys know how to tell the difference, some don't.

Casual seduction is a game, and like anything else - some people have skills, and some people's games just plain suck.

 

[satindesire]

Where we do need to redefine 'manhood' is by keying on responsibility, as I said earlier. If you honestly believe that your cock is some magical deity that must be satisfied by regular sacrifices of pussy, you're not a man. You're a fucking animal and deserve to be treated as such.

I love you.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree and think it is a grand idea, but as I deal with males I'm looking for ways to talk to them about male behavior.

I can and do suggest that men not play that game and just walk away from a women who wants to play. I hate aggressive flirting as a psydo-power play and think if men call women on it we will all be better off.

In my experience, women are sometimes genuinely unsure as to how they should be acting. That is to say, they clearly want to move forward with the sexual activity, but are confused and unsure as to how they should behave along the way. Worried about the messages they're sending. I'm speaking here now particularly about my experience with younger women, back in the day.

FurryFury put this very well, in the old thread to which I linked earlier. I agree with what she wrote, and disagree with the notion that the noncommittal "no" is always made for pseudo-power play purposes.

As for how to talk to males, I've already made my suggestions. The only thing I would add would be to say that I, personally, always responded well to authority figures who started with the assumption that of course I would want to do the right thing. It was as if I had their respect, as a starting point, and they were teaching me how to keep it. The alternative (you're an asshole, inherently, but there is a chance for redemption) just never worked well on me.