Where are all the men?

[Keroin]

Ohhh, yes.

Except when they don't.

Some guys know how to tell the difference, some don't.

Casual seduction is a game, and like anything else - some people have skills, and some people's games just plain suck.

Obviously, I don't know you but my perception of you, based on what I've read here, is not that you're aggressive. Assertive, confident, persuasive, yes, aggressive, no.

Are you able to give me an example of real life behavior, between you and a woman, that you consider aggressive? I'm just not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

 

[JMohegan]

Obviously, I don't know you but my perception of you, based on what I've read here, is not that you're aggressive. Assertive, confident, persuasive, yes, aggressive, no.

Are you able to give me an example of real life behavior, between you and a woman, that you consider aggressive? I'm just not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

I would have said that assertive + confident + persuasive = aggressive, so semantics definitely could be the problem here!

Just because I would be determined, engaged, eager, and focused on the woman in question, doesn't mean she'd be aware of that fact. What feels like aggressive pursuit in my head may translate into less intense behavior, as long as I feel that behavior will get me closer to my goal.

As I said, every woman's different. What seems pushy to you might be appreciated by someone else, and what seems just right to you might come off as trying to hard to someone else. An observant guy with his eye on the ball will adjust his behavior accordingly.

 

[Shankara20]

How often do you think this happens? Have there been any studies about this?

I'll see if I have any stats at the office.

 

[Shankara20]

Have we discussed the rack of lamb I had last night?

I love lamb.

I don't like mint jelly.

 

[Shankara20]

I am responsible for three males - myself and my two sons. I agree that it impractical to be responsible for all of mankind. And? I am not responsible for them, but I am responsible for the image of men in general. Each of us is.

I you

 

[Shankara20]

We need to grow the fuck up about sex. ...

edit

Where we do need to redefine 'manhood' is by keying on responsibility, as I said earlier. If you honestly believe that your cock is some magical deity that must be satisfied by regular sacrifices of pussy, you're not a man. You're a fucking animal and deserve to be treated as such.

We agree here.

 

[Shankara20]

As for how to talk to males, I've already made my suggestions. The only thing I would add would be to say that I, personally, always responded well to authority figures who started with the assumption that of course I would want to do the right thing. It was as if I had their respect, as a starting point, and they were teaching me how to keep it. The alternative (you're an asshole, inherently, but there is a chance for redemption) just never worked well on me.

Thank you for the reminder. At times I get a bit wound up and become preachy instead of requesting their involvement and offering them some tools to help.

Thanks again.

 

[Dreamliner]

Just passing through............

...............................

 

[ZRT]

We agree here.

Cool. I'd like to think that time that I e-sucked your dick was the start of something special.

 

[ZRT]

Just passing through............

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/10077536.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=449109E24F92386BA65A5B3AF2DF7A695C4940990DC260D0

Oh god damn, she said she'd deleted all the pics.

Before anybody gets the wrong idea, I normally stuff all that hair under a hat.

 

[Keroin]

I would have said that assertive + confident + persuasive = aggressive, so semantics definitely could be the problem here!

Just because I would be determined, engaged, eager, and focused on the woman in question, doesn't mean she'd be aware of that fact. What feels like aggressive pursuit in my head may translate into less intense behavior, as long as I feel that behavior will get me closer to my goal.

As I said, every woman's different. What seems pushy to you might be appreciated by someone else, and what seems just right to you might come off as trying to hard to someone else. An observant guy with his eye on the ball will adjust his behavior accordingly.

Semantics, yes, I think that's what's going on here.

To add on to your request for helpful advice for males I'd like to say that there is non-verbal subtext to behaviour. (Which an observant male would of course know).

When a man is very pushy, aggressive, in my face with his "courting", the non-verbal subtext I hear is:

"I am desperate. I am so lousy with women that if I don't push them to be with me, they won't be with me at all. I have no respect for you and care nothing about your physical or psychological well being. Possibly, I am dangerous, definitely I'm a pain in the behind."

Conversely, a man, however assertive, who respects my very firm "no" and leaves me alone, tells me this, non-verbally:

"I'm interested in you but I don't need you, as I do well with women and feel confident that I'll have no problem finding someone else. We might have had an enjoyable time together but I'm not going to waste our time if you don't want to be with me. I appreciate your forthrightness and respect your decision."

I think if a man wants to gain a good reputation - as lover, that is - he would do well to consider the subtext his behaviour is sending out.

I can be persuaded, I have been persuaded, but I will not be pressured.

 

[LilyBart]

Cool. I'd like to think that time that I e-sucked your dick was the start of something special.

How did I miss that? These are things I need to know about, dammit! (or damnit! Spellcheck and my brain are in disagreement tonight.)

~LB
(who is otherwise absorbing a fascinating dialogue in this thread. I think everyone has made some very valid points and observations. Even when you disagree with each other...or I disagree with you...)

I want to go with Homburg's point here though, I have always been of a mind that we (as adults) do set examples for children, teens, young adults by our actions. We really are responsible for the image that the younger members of our respective genders (or both genders) see as appropriate. I'm pretty sure that's what's referred to as civilization. We can't really be insular here. We should not be responsible for all of our respective gender's flaws...but we are each at some level responsible for not contributing to the proliferation of certain flaws.

OK, so that was one big generalization. But its the general crux of how I feel.

 

[LilyBart]

Semantics, yes, I think that's what's going on here.

To add on to your request for helpful advice for males I'd like to say that there is non-verbal subtext to behaviour. (Which an observant male would of course know).

When a man is very pushy, aggressive, in my face with his "courting", the non-verbal subtext I hear is:

"I am desperate. I am so lousy with women that if I don't push them to be with me, they won't be with me at all. I have no respect for you and care nothing about your physical or psychological well being. Possibly, I am dangerous, definitely I'm a pain in the behind."

Conversely, a man, however assertive, who respects my very firm "no" and leaves me alone, tells me this, non-verbally:

"I'm interested in you but I don't need you, as I do well with women and feel confident that I'll have no problem finding someone else. We might have had an enjoyable time together but I'm not going to waste our time if you don't want to be with me. I appreciate your forthrightness and respect your decision."

I think if a man wants to gain a good reputation - as lover, that is - he would do well to consider the subtext his behaviour is sending out.

I can be persuaded, I have been persuaded, but I will not be pressured.

In my circle, the pushy, aggressive man was dubbed "he-of-little-pee-pee."

Admittedly, the description was from our younger days. We are far more blunt today.

However in all seriousness, the line I bolded is so very true. I don't care if you're 20 or 90 or somewhere in between. Although I will add it goes both ways. Women need to be as acutely aware of the messages they send...for the very same reason.

~LB

 

[JMohegan]

Thank you for the reminder. At times I get a bit wound up and become preachy instead of requesting their involvement and offering them some tools to help.

Thanks again.

"Now, I know none of you boys wants to wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and see a rapist staring back."

I can still him standing there, saying that. Even after all these years.

Like clockwork, every August - at the end of training, and just before the coeds came back. He started with that line, and then told us how he expected us to act. And as imperfect, hormone-ridden, cocky, immature, and blotto as we frequently were, we really did try to do what he said.

He was right. None us wanted to see ourselves as rapists. But the truth is, even more than that, we didn't want to disappoint him.

Boys need strong role models. That's just a fact.

 

[JMohegan]

I have always been of a mind that we (as adults) do set examples for children, teens, young adults by our actions.

If you're talking about *public* behavior, I agree with this 100%.

As an aside, this conversation mirrors so closely the many I've had on the subject of kink with the non-kinky that I find myself a bit surprised no one else has made the connection.

What goes on in the privacy of my bedroom is my business, and my partner's, and our business only. It's up to the woman in question to decide if she is or is not okay with what's going on.

 

[LilyBart]

If you're talking about *public* behavior, I agree with this 100%.

As an aside, this conversation mirrors so closely the many I've had on the subject of kink with the non-kinky that I find myself a bit surprised no one else has made the connection.

What goes on in the privacy of my bedroom is my business, and my partner's, and our business only. It's up to the woman in question to decide if she is or is not okay with what's going on.

I think, perhaps...that the modeling of public behavior can influence "behind the door behavior." As in knowing that "no means no", whether its said or heard.

And the trick with this thread is that its hard to confine it to BDSM. So I think that contributes to much of the confusion in people's words.

The recent digression started with trying to explain to YC why his behavior/thought process might not be easily understood or appropriate. It very quickly descended into "all young men," which is unfortunate. There are two good conversations to have here: one for the kink inclined, and one for the vanilla. However there is a fundamental message that is universal. Your coach, JM, delivered the male version of that message. I wonder how many women hear the female version in quite the same way? I'm thinking out loud here... and am too sleepy to discern the answer at the moment...

~LB

 

[JMohegan]

I think, perhaps...that the modeling of public behavior can influence "behind the door behavior." As in knowing that "no means no", whether its said or heard.

And the trick with this thread is that its hard to confine it to BDSM. So I think that contributes to much of the confusion in people's words.

The recent digression started with trying to explain to YC why his behavior/thought process might not be easily understood or appropriate. It very quickly descended into "all young men," which is unfortunate. There are two good conversations to have here: one for the kink inclined, and one for the vanilla. However there is a fundamental message that is universal. Your coach, JM, delivered the male version of that message. I wonder how many women hear the female version in quite the same way? I'm thinking out loud here... and am too sleepy to discern the answer at the moment...

~LB

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

I don't see these issues as divided, one for the kink inclined and one for the vanilla. Sex is sex to me, and the issues are just variants on the same theme.

Personally I see a lot of irony in a discussion, on this board, of guys modeling non-violence with their private bedroom behavior. "You hit your girlfriend? This is why men everywhere get a bad name!!" Who hasn't heard that before?

Consent is the key, of course. The difference between rape and acceptable sex, and between unethical violence and legitimate SM. But consent can be a fuzzy issue, in many cases. We've had countless discussions on this board on this issue. Sometimes it's just not a clearly delineated thing.

 

[LilyBart]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

I don't see these issues as divided, one for the kink inclined and one for the vanilla. Sex is sex to me, and the issues are just variants on the same theme.

Personally I see a lot of irony in a discussion, on this board, of guys modeling non-violence with their private bedroom behavior. "You hit your girlfriend? This is why men everywhere get a bad name!!" Who hasn't heard that before?

Consent is the key, of course. The difference between rape and acceptable sex, and between unethical violence and legitimate SM. But consent can be a fuzzy issue, in many cases. We've had countless discussions on this board on this issue. Sometimes it's just not a clearly delineated thing.

My mother was my role model. Which was not necessarily a good thing...not terrible, but not great, in my case (even if she was a fabulous role model in many other ways).

At this point in my life I have gained some wisdom and have shrugged off my mother's more provincial views on sex. My comments were made, more with my own college-age daughter in mind. As in how am I a role model? And who else is a role model for her?

And my thoughts were also in response to your quote: "As an aside, this conversation mirrors so closely the many I've had on the subject of kink with the non-kinky that I find myself a bit surprised no one else has made the connection." I was just trying to offer a general reminder back to the subject of YC's posts, which may or may not have been made the context of kink. That even though there is a core element of *proper* behavior that is common to both vanilla and kinky, posters are coming at the subject from both angles and so respective POVs are sometimes a little less clear. Because yes, its not always clearly delineated. Call me a mediator tonight.

And I apologize if I have missed many of your comments in other threads along these lines. I try to keep up...but there are so many dynamic threads and sadly so few hours in the day. Not to mention my shrinking brain capacity.

~LB

p.s some day, I will have to share the line that was used on me this week. It was without a doubt the most outrageous attempt at flirting (I'll be kind) that I have ever heard. However in the gentleman's defense, when I politely made clear I was not interested, he excused himself in way that would make all of us proud.

Now, this time I'm serious. I'm going to sleep.

 

[CutieMouse]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

I have to preface this by pointing out I grew up in one hell of a dysfunctional family...

My female role model was my mother and my sister. Mother viewed my sister and I as "competition" for my father's attention, almost as if we were the "other woman". She put me [emotionally/physically] in the background as often as possible - mostly comments re: how unattractive I was. (Yes, this is why I bite my tongue until it bleeds when complimented.)

As far as messages about sex - Mother's opinion was that she would not have a slut in the household. If I knew anything about sex, I would become a slut. If I had a GYN exam, I would become a slut. At 15 a doctor recommended I take a 6 month course of meds that required being on BC pills as well (even though I was a virgin, didn't believe in sex outside of marriage, wasn't dating anyone, wasn't allowed to date anyone, etc) - my mother was of the opinion that sluts took BC pills. She denied me the medication.

I ended up living with my sister the last year of high school, and her only rule was "don't get pregnant or arrested." I was still a virginal, straight laced, not outside of marriage kinda kid, so nothing happened, but she was of the opinion that it wouldn't be the end of the world if I became sexually active, and I was free to talk to her if I needed to.

Add religion (my choice) to the mix (it was a safer place to hang out than home), and you had one heck of a sexually repressed young adult, who married too young - in part because hormones took over one night and she slept with the guy who said he loved and wanted to marry her. (silly silly girl)

 

[satindesire]

I have to preface this by pointing out I grew up in one hell of a dysfunctional family...

*Snip*

Jesus H Christ. *hugs*

 

[graceanne]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

My mother. To be fair, she was molested early in life.

She taught us from early on that men only want one thing from you, and they don't care if you want to give it back. We were not allowed to spend the night at friends houses if they had dads/uncle/older brothers living there, because the might molest us. We always had female babysitters, and weren't really allowed around men. Things got worse when I started to develop (I was 8), because she then worried that her male friends were hugging me cause they liked the feel of my boobs against their chest.

My sister and I were treated like sluts from the moment we started developing. We were required to call her as soon as we got home, and if we were more than a minute or two late she wanted to know who we were seeing. If we left for school early, she would follow to catch us with our 'boyfriend'. (To put this in perspective, I didn't have anything remotely resembling a boyfriend until I was 17.) If we spent too much time in our rooms we were hiding things, and therefore either using drugs or sleeping around.

When I was 14 she told me that I'd be dropped out of school, on drugs, and pregnant by the time I was 16. She could tell. Of course she totally missed the signs of suicide attempts on my wrists, and the bruises I'd leave on my arms, she was so busy looking for signs of drugs use.

When I joined a church at 16, she had a cow. Was sure I was using this as an excuse to stay away from her. (I wasn't - that was just an added benefit.) My youth group leader persuaded her to let me go to youth group, though.

I got married when I was 19. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was marrying to get away from my mother. Not fair to K, but he was (subconsciously) marrying me because his biological clock was ringing. We worked past all that.

 

[CutieMouse]

Jesus H Christ. *hugs*

Pfft.

My mother is a mentally ill woman who most likely suffered a hell of a lot worse than I ever did. Not an excuse; just reality.

 

[satindesire]

Pfft.

My mother is a mentally ill woman who most likely suffered a hell of a lot worse than I ever did. Not an excuse; just reality.

Doesn't mean what happened to you wasn't awful.

Take the cuddle and sympathy because it doesn't come with a receipt and you can't return it to the store. No money back policy!!

 

[YourCaptor]

If she has decided to tolerate it and has full freedom to say "nope not this time" that go ahead and use her as your recipticle.




I'm will no longer ask you to be a hero. As I have stated elsewhere I would suggest that in the future you reconsider that thought should you ever find yourself ready to complain about the courts and family service agencies that are heavily biased toward demonizing men out-of-hand.




I suggest you consider what the difference is between being "ridiculously domineering", and what aggression looks like from the point of view of the other and then how far they see it from when violence might start.

Well I'm glad we have come to somewhat of a consensus on my behavior. I'm still curious though about the boys you said you use to speak too.

Studies show that a majority of men, if they thought they could get away with it, would force a women to have sex.

So I think what needs to be examine is why men think they can get away with it. I think its far more then just no means yes.

Some pondering on date rape,

If she went half way it must mean she wants it, and therefor afterward she will recognize that

Everyone says don't have sex, shes just saying no cause she is supose to

Shes inexperience she doesn't know what she wants.

If you are gentle and affectionate its not rape

Also one that i know tends to happen, cause girls have told me they reacted this way

Shes not reacting at all now, must be a green light

It's not a fun topic, but like all things sexual related, next to no real research exists on the subject. It's a shame too.

 

[MisterSir]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

Not addressed to me, but it makes me think because I've never had a role model, especially not when it comes to sex. In fact, sex, drugs and rock and roll I've been left to my own devices (with the result that I've learned to drink from a borderline alcoholic and my views on women have been shaped by a shameless womaniser. One and the same person, natch). For an alleged racially insensitive expression, being the family's black sheep doesn't seem so bad.