Where are all the men?

[ammre]

I don't now how this thread went from being about REAL MEN *puffs up chest*, to female role models, I kinda came in at the end and didn't read through it all, but I just wanted to say that my dad was sick most of my life and that meant he was retired due to health reasons. He became the House Husband and my mom was the big breadwinner. I love my mom sincerely but I have to admit I'm glad that my dad raised me. I don't know why more family don't do that. it's kick ass. I miss him.


I once went to a sociology panel about masculinity and someone made an interesting statement about how if you ask most guys who the man in their life they admire most is... the guys will often respond with a man who has shown emotion or compassion or some other non-ubermasculine trait.

 

[JMohegan]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

My mother was my role model. Which was not necessarily a good thing...not terrible, but not great, in my case (even if she was a fabulous role model in many other ways).

At this point in my life I have gained some wisdom and have shrugged off my mother's more provincial views on sex. My comments were made, more with my own college-age daughter in mind. As in how am I a role model? And who else is a role model for her?

Referencing the part of your earlier post about the female version of the "fundamental message" (see below), I asked about the messages received from female role models because I'm wondering what that female version is, or was.

In this context, role model = person you respect and listen to, i.e., the one whose message you absorb and whose advice you heed.

However there is a fundamental message that is universal. Your coach, JM, delivered the male version of that message. I wonder how many women hear the female version in quite the same way?

 

[JMohegan]

I once went to a sociology panel about masculinity and someone made an interesting statement about how if you ask most guys who the man in their life they admire most is... the guys will often respond with a man who has shown emotion or compassion or some other non-ubermasculine trait.

Yes, of course. That's because most guys, as humans, respond best to people who validate their behavior as actual human beings.

My experience, though, is that this works best coming from a man who is also recognizably, undeniably, masculine. Not necessarily ubermasculine, but clearly masculine all the same.

 

[LilyBart]

Referencing the part of your earlier post about the female version of the "fundamental message" (see below), I asked about the messages received from female role models because I'm wondering what that female version is, or was.

In this context, role model = person you respect and listen to, i.e., the one whose message you absorb and whose advice you heed.

You just threw back the same question that I asked.

And the question I asked was who are the role models for the current generation of young women? There is a huge generational difference and a very wide difference in female attitudes about sex, at least when I look at my mother's messages to me vs. my messages to my daughters.

But I don't think the role models are confined to just mothers. Father's have a role for sure (I lost my father when I was very young so that element was missing for me.) Also, I didn't have as many opportunities for athletics. My daughters and their friends are all heavily involved in athletics which I think has gone a long way providing a self-confidence that is not dependent on sexual attractiveness.

This is a bit of a ramble. I haven't had sufficient caffeine yet. I'll think about this some more.

~LB

 

[Homburg]

I once went to a sociology panel about masculinity and someone made an interesting statement about how if you ask most guys who the man in their life they admire most is... the guys will often respond with a man who has shown emotion or compassion or some other non-ubermasculine trait.

My dad shows emotion and compassion. He's a great guy. But it's not a lot of either. Not muted per se, just, with his background, not a lot phases him. My father was viciously abused as a child and young man, and somehow turned into a wildly functional adult. But it means that he is just not bothered by lot of things that normal people are bothered by. He's been through worse. Add that to 24 years in the Army and service through multiple wars and conflicts, and you have someone who really can survive anything, and he knows it.

So my example is a guy that wasn't insensitive, but was conditioned by life to be able to live through anything. I'm not explaining this well, I'm sorry. My dad is a very warm and loving person. I have rarely seen him honestly angry(grumpy, aggravated, a little pissed off, sure, but not honestly angry), and I've never seen him offer violence to anyone that hadn't actively swung on him first.

How he grew up to be nothing like his father, I don't know. I really consider it his most amazing accomplishment. He broke the cycle of abuse by sheer willpower. This is the man I learned from.

MIS Says I am lacking the "fear gene", because she's seen me do things, and handle situations, that other people are afraid of, or freak out over. I don't think I lack the capacity for fear. I just learned growing up that life will throw you curve balls. The best thing to do is swing anyway, and letting fear distract you is pointless. I'm not sure how my dad managed to impart this lesson without being John Wayne uber-stoic, but he did.

 

[JMohegan]

You just threw back the same question that I asked.

And the question I asked was who are the role models for the current generation of young women? There is a huge generational difference and a very wide difference in female attitudes about sex, at least when I look at my mother's messages to me vs. my messages to my daughters.

But I don't think the role models are confined to just mothers. Father's have a role for sure (I lost my father when I was very young so that element was missing for me.) Also, I didn't have as many opportunities for athletics. My daughters and their friends are all heavily involved in athletics which I think has gone a long way providing a self-confidence that is not dependent on sexual attractiveness.

This is a bit of a ramble. I haven't had sufficient caffeine yet. I'll think about this some more.

~LB

But what are you actually telling your daughters? Do you have discussions about sex, when they should have it, what they should expect, how they should behave when alone in the room with a guy? If so, what do you say?

I appreciate the responses from CM and Graceanne very much. Neither of them are my generation, but both received messages of sexual repression that echo (albeit in a much more extreme way) the message delivered to my sister.

The message my sister got was: your reputation matters, it matters a lot. And if you are perceived as being too eager to have sex, or willing to have sex outside carefully prescribed conditions, you will suffer negative personal consequences as a result. The chief negative consequence being: guys won't want to seriously date and eventually marry you.

 

[LilyBart]

But what are you actually telling your daughters? Do you have discussions about sex, when they should have it, what they should expect, how they should behave when alone in the room with a guy? If so, what do you say?

I appreciate the responses from CM and Graceanne very much. Neither of them are my generation, but both received messages of sexual repression that echo (albeit in a much more extreme way) the message delivered to my sister.

The message my sister got was: your reputation matters, it matters a lot. And if you are perceived as being too eager to have sex, or willing to have sex outside carefully prescribed conditions, you will suffer negative personal consequences as a result. The chief negative consequence being: guys won't want to seriously date and eventually marry you.

I got very much the same message as your sister. Although my mother could barely say the word "sex" so your sister's education sounds a little healthier than mine was.

And yes I do have very frank discussions with my daughters about sex. Both in practical terms (avoiding pregnancy or STDs), as well as the message that your body belongs to you and you alone.

I do know that my older daughter has confined her sexual activity to what she deemed as serious relationships. And I am absolutely confident based on our conversations (and her personality) that she is not the least bit afraid to tell her partner what she does or doesn't want, will do or won't do, sexually or otherwise.


~LB

 

[JMohegan]

Thanks, LB. That sounds like healthy, and very practical, mother/daughter messaging to me. Returning to the question that sparked this exchange...

However there is a fundamental message that is universal. Your coach, JM, delivered the male version of that message. I wonder how many women hear the female version in quite the same way?

I wonder if, or how much, the fundamental message (in terms of male/female roles) has really changed.

Male version: of course you'll want to get as much action as possible. Don't rape anybody, and don't knock anybody up.

Female version: of course he'll want to get as much action as possible. Learn how to protect yourself accordingly.

 

[LilyBart]

Thanks, LB. That sounds like healthy, and very practical, mother/daughter messaging to me. Returning to the question that sparked this exchange...
I wonder if, or how much, the fundamental message (in terms of male/female roles) has really changed.

Male version: of course you'll want to get as much action as possible. Don't rape anybody, and don't knock anybody up.

Female version: of course he'll want to get as much action as possible. Learn how to protect yourself accordingly.

On the flip side, I don't think my message to my son has been a whole lot different than the one to my daughters. And while I am obviously not privy to his intimate life (he is well on his own now), based on the respect that I see in his dealings with others, I believe his "action" has not been as prolific as some of his peers (although I acknowledge that he has likely been more active than my daughter). Either way, the both know about BC and condoms and use them.

I've been thinking back on the thought of a coach as role model as well. My older daughter was both a HS and collegiate athlete, with both male and female coaches. I know that at least at the schools she attended, athletes were held to a higher standard of public behavior. She and I have never talked specifically about how sex factored into the behavior expectations, but I think it might be an interesting conversation to have.

~LB

 

[Netzach]

The Talks were really non-starter issues in HS because I was so far from any kind of boyfriend involvement. I had full access to scientific info of all kinds. I can't remember the word "slut" ever being used by my mother in regards to anyone but C lister celebs once in a blue moon.

My stepdad was weird, but he was Catholic and PTSD and messed up sexually in interesting ways I only found out about lately. I said something about waiting till I really liked someone and he said something about "oh so you're saving yourself" that drippped with total sarcasm. I never forgot that, and I never let it get to me either, I remember thinking "yeah, ya dick". I guess his familiarity with saving oneself was being willing to have ass sex in the back of cars.

Honestly, I feel like I was doing a lot of trial and error. I would hormonally throw myself at a few guys my senior year of HS and freshman year of college, but I also remember crying over my beer one night, then deciding for myself:

self, is this the idiotic desperate feeling you want to feel and are you going to allow this to go on?

I don't know what made me do that. I know it's something my mother never modeled, because simpering attendant and utterly submissive around any male is her MO.

The next relationship I had and the time I did decide on PIV sex, it was with someone I really clicked with on friend levels and on all levels. We stuck with one another for about seven years.

So who are my sexuality role models? My art prof, Midori, and my mother in that she didn't fuck it all up for me? Me? I don't really know.

 

[graceanne]

But what are you actually telling your daughters? Do you have discussions about sex, when they should have it, what they should expect, how they should behave when alone in the room with a guy? If so, what do you say?

I appreciate the responses from CM and Graceanne very much. Neither of them are my generation, but both received messages of sexual repression that echo (albeit in a much more extreme way) the message delivered to my sister.

The message my sister got was: your reputation matters, it matters a lot. And if you are perceived as being too eager to have sex, or willing to have sex outside carefully prescribed conditions, you will suffer negative personal consequences as a result. The chief negative consequence being: guys won't want to seriously date and eventually marry you.

I try to keep the sex discussion open with my daughter, by being comfortable talking about it and willing. I've told her that sex is fun and that's it's ok. I also told her that I believe that premarital sex is a sin and I hope she'll wait until she's married, but if she has to have sex, let me know and I'll get her some birth control. Having sex young is stupid, having sex without birth control is full on moronic. I think, actually, she was there when I cornered my brothers girlfriend to make sure she was on birth control.

At this point she's ten and isn't allowed to be alone with her 'boyfriends'. We also had a discussion about how she isn't really old enough to have a boyfriend, but if she wants to pretend that's ok, as long as she and I know that she's just pretending. She's also not allowed to kiss her 'boyfriend', or do anything other than hand holding. I said when she's 13 she can start going on group dates with guys, and we'll discuss it from there.

Honestly, I don't believe in making hard rules about stuff like dating. A (my oldest) is much more mature than her brother and sister. I figure that 13 is a good age to start doing group dates, because at that point it'll be hard to keep her from dating, and I'd rather know what's going on than have them sneaking around. A secret is very powerful thing.

 

[Netzach]

I guess the whole idea of role modeling, like kid is a pure tabula rasa, is, to me kind of weird. As someone who's mostly taken avoidance pains as much as possible with the behaviors around her.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Who was your female role model? What message did she give you about sex? This is something I'd be interested to hear from all of the women on the thread.

growing up, my female role model was my aunt. however, i saw her almost like some holy saint that was untouchable...i would no more have had a discussion about sex with her than i would have approached Mother Theresa with the same. i also believed that my aunt had reached a place in life completely and wholly out of the realm of possibility for someone like me, therefore she probably was not a role model in the strictest sense. more, someone i looked up to with awe, respect and admiration.

my mother never had the sex talk with me...all she ever, and i mean EVER said about sex when i was growing up was "keep a nickel between your knees." from her i got the loud and clear message that sex was something filthy and disgusting, to be done only within marriage and even then only out of obligation, and that it was not something any sane or good girl/woman could possibly enjoy. this is the message i got from listening to my parents argue and fight late at night about sex and everything else, and from overhearing my mother talking and complaining to her girlfriends.

thankfully, my dad was more of a role model for me. i shadowed him like a puppy, so was aware that he kept quite a collection of adult mags and videos and viewed them regularly. he never talked to me about sex either, i suppose because of my age, but i like to think that he would have given me a positive, healthy message.

 

[JMohegan]

I guess the whole idea of role modeling, like kid is a pure tabula rasa, is, to me kind of weird. As someone who's mostly taken avoidance pains as much as possible with the behaviors around her.

I see this the other way around.

Take away role models, and you've got Lord of the Flies. Especially when it comes to male behavior in sexual interactions, nature unrestrained is very unlikely to produce a positive outcome for females in society.

 

[CutieMouse]

But what are you actually telling your daughters? Do you have discussions about sex, when they should have it, what they should expect, how they should behave when alone in the room with a guy? If so, what do you say?

I appreciate the responses from CM and Graceanne very much. Neither of them are my generation, but both received messages of sexual repression that echo (albeit in a much more extreme way) the message delivered to my sister.

The message my sister got was: your reputation matters, it matters a lot. And if you are perceived as being too eager to have sex, or willing to have sex outside carefully prescribed conditions, you will suffer negative personal consequences as a result. The chief negative consequence being: guys won't want to seriously date and eventually marry you.

I talk to all of them the same (the 3 boys and 2 girls) -

Biologically speaking, the purpose and end result of sex is a baby.

Emotionally and physically speaking, the purpose and (hopefully) end result of sex is connectivity, intimacy, pleasure, exploration and a heck of a lot of fun. This doesn't *have* to happen within the confines of marriage/monogamous relationship/straight/gay/whatever, but for goodness sake be ethical, avoid STDs, use birth control until you're ready for children.

I try so hard to model healthy boundaries, so for example when eldest son came to me saying he didn't know how to deal with girls crushing on him at school, we came up with a solution that made him comfortable - he decided to ask to stay friends, but trying to hug and kiss on him made him uncomfortable, so please respect that and stop. I also gave him the heads up/warning that he might be doing this differently than other kids, and get teased for it... my BIL's reaction to the situation was "OMG everyone will think he's GAY! You have to teach him how to string them along!" Um... No. I expect to have the same kinds of talks with the girls when they hit that point in the social spectrum.

They know I'll still love and support them no matter what, but my *advice* is to not become sexually active until they feel emotionally and mentally mature enough to handle the responsibilities of sex... and avoid having children until they've finished their MFA/MS in whatever field they've chosen.

 

[graceanne]

I try so hard to model healthy boundaries, so for example when eldest son came to me saying he didn't know how to deal with girls crushing on him at school, we came up with a solution that made him comfortable - he decided to ask to stay friends, but trying to hug and kiss on him made him uncomfortable, so please respect that and stop. I also gave him the heads up/warning that he might be doing this differently than other kids, and get teased for it... my BIL's reaction to the situation was "OMG everyone will think he's GAY! You have to teach him how to string them along!" Um... No. I expect to have the same kinds of talks with the girls when they hit that point in the social spectrum.

I think it's so awesome that your son was comfortable talking to you about this. And I think your advice was perfect. Not everyone needs to be a game player.

 

[intothewoods]

I had many female role models, but I can't really remember talking about sex with them. I don't remember talking about sex with my mother much. I got a few "a lady doesn't" messages but nothing extreme. I remember sex ed, discussions of the Jewish view of sex through religious school and training for sex education for a program I was involved with in high school, and my parents weren't heavy-handed about those things. They let me think what I wanted to think and say what I wanted to say, generally speaking.

 

[Netzach]

I see this the other way around.

Take away role models, and you've got Lord of the Flies. Especially when it comes to male behavior in sexual interactions, nature unrestrained is very unlikely to produce a positive outcome for females in society.

I realize this is the general take on it that most people have and it's probably for the best.

However I can't name the people who influenced my thinking about sexuality in the formative years and I don't have three out of wedlock kids and an STD.

Not being able to say "I got the message from this specific person at this specific time and place" doesn't mean Lord of the Flies ensues. A general climate of good message availability, like the one I went to school in, is also valid.

 

[Keroin]

None of my female role models had anything to tell me about sex in any form. Even my parents never said anything about birds and bees. However, I did learn that sex must be bad because it's something no one talks about.

At 15 I started dating the first love of my life. We were both virgins but we discussed sex and knew we were going to have it. I got myself on BC, without my parent's knowledge, he got an econo pack of condoms. Our first time was fantastic. We played and giggled and had the time of our lives.

My opinion of sex changed the moment D and I first kissed. Overnight. From that point on I realized it was natural and I wasn't a bad person for wanting it. We averaged about three to four times a day, D and I, during the three years we were together. It was very comfortable for us.

Oh, and I did have a social studies course in grade 10 called "Human Studies" that dealt with a myriad of relevant issues, such as rape and consent. Best course ever.

 

[myinnerslut]

my mother was open with me about sex, very understanding up until the point it got kinky. which is funny considering my parents are (were?). just not the same way i am.

until recently i felt i could ask her anything. when i was younger she made me a photocopy of a list of ways to say no to sex. i kept it in my dresser until only few months ago. she was supportive of my using birth control, and drove me to the doctor to procure it.

my brother has responsibility drilled into him. be responsible for your actions, and responsible in your sex life.

 

[Keroin]

Having sex young is stupid.

I think having sex when you're not emotionally ready for it is stupid but for some people emotionally ready happens at 15 and for some at 25. I understand you're raising your kids within your ethical sphere - and it sounds like you're doing a bang up job - but I don't agree with this statement.

I don't regret, for one moment, starting so young. I was a healthy, happy kid, raised in a loving home, my grades were always A's, I was physically active, I had a good circle of friends, and I had safe sex on a regular basis from the age of 15 onward. Not sure how that's bad or stupid?

 

[Keroin]

my mother was open with me about sex, very understanding up until the point it got kinky. which is funny considering my parents are (were?). just not the same way i am.

until recently i felt i could ask her anything. when i was younger she made me a photocopy of a list of ways to say no to sex. i kept it in my dresser until only few months ago. she was supportive of my using birth control, and drove me to the doctor to procure it.

my brother has responsibility drilled into him. be responsible for your actions, and responsible in your sex life.

These are good parents you have. Wow. You realize how lucky you are, right?

 

[graceanne]

I think having sex when you're not emotionally ready for it is stupid but for some people emotionally ready happens at 15 and for some at 25. I understand you're raising your kids within your ethical sphere - and it sounds like you're doing a bang up job - but I don't agree with this statement.

I don't regret, for one moment, starting so young. I was a healthy, happy kid, raised in a loving home, my grades were always A's, I was physically active, I had a good circle of friends, and I had safe sex on a regular basis from the age of 15 onward. Not sure how that's bad or stupid?

I don't agree. And, honestly, this is one of those things we're not going to agree one so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this discussion.

I think sex is for adults. I do not think 15 year olds are adults. I think 15 year olds think that birth control is this magic pill you take and it'll keep you safe. But birth control isn't 100% safe - you can still get preggers you can still get diseases. If you're going to make bad decisions you should use something to lower risks, but the best decision is take no risk.

AND, I believe it's a sin. I know this is not a popular belief on this board, but I believe that it is for women to submit to their husbands, and I think that premarital sex makes this more difficult; it flips a switch in the woman's head. K and I had pre-marital sex and it caused no end of grief, because I knew that he couldn't control himself. (That had a bit to do with I know he agrees with my beliefs.) How could I expect him to be able to be in control of our family, if he can't even keep his dick in his pants? It took us years to work though this.

And, for girls, I think there's more. For women, at least when they first start having sex, it's an emotional, intimate thing. For young boys it's just booty - they might love the girl they're having sex with, but not with the love that an adult man has. Most young relationships don't work, so the girls start to learn to guard their hearts, and eventually they begin to view sex like men do; as an act that is just about pleasure.

Sex was a gift from God. It was meant to bring intimacy and joy to a marriage. It's meant to be fun, and it's meant to be joyful. It's not meant to be a power trip and it's not meant to be just about getting off.

See? I told you we're not going to agree on this one.

 

[Keroin]

I don't agree. And, honestly, this is one of those things we're not going to agree one so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this discussion.

I think sex is for adults. I do not think 15 year olds are adults. I think 15 year olds think that birth control is this magic pill you take and it'll keep you safe. But birth control isn't 100% safe - you can still get preggers you can still get diseases. If you're going to make bad decisions you should use something to lower risks, but the best decision is take no risk.

AND, I believe it's a sin. I know this is not a popular belief on this board, but I believe that it is for women to submit to their husbands, and I think that premarital sex makes this more difficult; it flips a switch in the woman's head. K and I had pre-marital sex and it caused no end of grief, because I knew that he couldn't control himself. (That had a bit to do with I know he agrees with my beliefs.) How could I expect him to be able to be in control of our family, if he can't even keep his dick in his pants? It took us years to work though this.

And, for girls, I think there's more. For women, at least when they first start having sex, it's an emotional, intimate thing. For young boys it's just booty - they might love the girl they're having sex with, but not with the love that an adult man has. Most young relationships don't work, so the girls start to learn to guard their hearts, and eventually they begin to view sex like men do; as an act that is just about pleasure.

Sex was a gift from God. It was meant to bring intimacy and joy to a marriage. It's meant to be fun, and it's meant to be joyful. It's not meant to be a power trip and it's not meant to be just about getting off.

See? I told you we're not going to agree on this one.

No, I didn't think we would, and that's cool. We're coming from very different places - I don't believe in god, as you know, and I was never interested in marriage.

I will say this, though, I loved D and he loved me but sex was often just booty call, for both of us. No, the love we had for each other was not the same as the love I've felt, or he's felt, as an adult, but that does not diminish what we had between us. We used both condoms and BC, we were always careful. I'm very grateful for the time I spent with him - in bed and out.

We met up again when we were in our mid-twenties and had lunch. There was still lots of mutual affection and we both look back fondly on the years we were in love. He's happily married now, with kids, and I'm so happy for him. Whatever anyone else may think, I will just never see that experience as stupid. In fact, I think it laid the foundation for a healthy attitude toward sex and my body.

 

[Homburg]

These are good parents you have. Wow. You realize how lucky you are, right?

Oh, they're making up for lost time now.