Where are all the men?

[graceanne]

Oh, they're making up for lost time now.

That's the impression I've gotten.

Honestly, I think that if your children are adults that you need to keep your opinion to yourself. I can see saying something once, so they know where you stand, but then back off and let them be adults! Geez!

 

[Keroin]

Oh, they're making up for lost time now.

Oh, I'm sure it's frustrating but, seriously, if I had come to my parents around that age and told them that I was a masochist and I was going to become the slave of a man who was 30-something and already with another woman and had kids...wow, after they recovered from their heart attacks, they would have yelled and screamed and cried and probably disowned me, and maybe hired a hitman to deal with the guy. And my parents were fairly liberal compared to others I knew.

Soooooo, I still think MIS's parents are pretty cool, in the big picture.

*Yes, I know it probably didn't all happen the way I described above, but you get the general idea, I hope.

 

[JMohegan]

Honestly, I think that if your children are adults that you need to keep your opinion to yourself. I can see saying something once, so they know where you stand, but then back off and let them be adults!

In most cases, I would agree 100%.

But if my college-aged niece had jumped from a multi-year abusive relationship to TPE slavery with a married, sadistic, middle-aged, out-of-state guy, it would be very, very hard for me to view that situation with a restrained, 'an uncle has no business commenting on his adult niece's choices' perspective. I like to think that I'd be smart enough not to react in a way that would be counterproductive. But I would definitely be concerned, for reasons relating to the whole "sound mind and body" capacity for consent thing Shank mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that whatever treatment they're dishing out is right, fair, helpful, or even reasonable. I'm just putting myself in the older relatives' shoes, and guessing that the situation must be painful for everybody.

 

[graceanne]

In most cases, I would agree 100%.

But if my college-aged niece had jumped from a multi-year abusive relationship to TPE slavery with a married, sadistic, middle-aged, out-of-state guy, it would be very, very hard for me to view that situation with a restrained, 'an uncle has no business commenting on his adult niece's choices' perspective. I like to think that I'd be smart enough not to react in a way that would be counterproductive. But I would definitely be concerned, for reasons relating to the whole "sound mind and body" capacity for consent thing Shank mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that whatever treatment they're dishing out is right, fair, helpful, or even reasonable. I'm just putting myself in the older relatives' shoes, and guessing that the situation must be painful for everybody.

By making asses of themselves they're ensuring that if she were to decide to get out of this relationship she won't go to them. If I was in their situation, I would definitely say something and be unhappy with it. But because they can't do anything about it, now it's time for them to ensure that she knows that she can come to them and they'll listen fairly and calmly.

Let's put it this way. What if homburg was abusive with her (I don't think he is, but then we only know his online personality). But what if? Would MIS be comfortable going to her parents to talk to them about it? I doubt it. They just closed themselves off as part of her support group, because they can't be supportive.

AND, part of being an adult is making mistakes and taking the consequences of those mistakes. Part of being a good parent is letting your kids learn. When they're younger you let them learn that if they do abc then xyz will happen. When they're older it's the same thing.

 

[JMohegan]

By making asses of themselves they're ensuring that if she were to decide to get out of this relationship she won't go to them. If I was in their situation, I would definitely say something and be unhappy with it. But because they can't do anything about it, now it's time for them to ensure that she knows that she can come to them and they'll listen fairly and calmly.

Let's put it this way. What if homburg was abusive with her (I don't think he is, but then we only know his online personality). But what if? Would MIS be comfortable going to her parents to talk to them about it? I doubt it. They just closed themselves off as part of her support group, because they can't be supportive.

AND, part of being an adult is making mistakes and taking the consequences of those mistakes. Part of being a good parent is letting your kids learn. When they're younger you let them learn that if they do abc then xyz will happen. When they're older it's the same thing.

All of this is entirely rational, reasonable, sterling advice.

But parents are people, and they make mistakes too. And people are a lot more prone to making mistakes when they are feeling personally devastated.

Again, I'm not justifying whatever it is they're doing. I'm just saying that I can understand why they'd be distressed.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't agree. And, honestly, this is one of those things we're not going to agree one so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this discussion.

I think sex is for adults. I do not think 15 year olds are adults. I think 15 year olds think that birth control is this magic pill you take and it'll keep you safe. But birth control isn't 100% safe - you can still get preggers you can still get diseases. If you're going to make bad decisions you should use something to lower risks, but the best decision is take no risk.

AND, I believe it's a sin. I know this is not a popular belief on this board, but I believe that it is for women to submit to their husbands, and I think that premarital sex makes this more difficult; it flips a switch in the woman's head. K and I had pre-marital sex and it caused no end of grief, because I knew that he couldn't control himself. (That had a bit to do with I know he agrees with my beliefs.) How could I expect him to be able to be in control of our family, if he can't even keep his dick in his pants? It took us years to work though this.

And, for girls, I think there's more. For women, at least when they first start having sex, it's an emotional, intimate thing. For young boys it's just booty - they might love the girl they're having sex with, but not with the love that an adult man has. Most young relationships don't work, so the girls start to learn to guard their hearts, and eventually they begin to view sex like men do; as an act that is just about pleasure.

Sex was a gift from God. It was meant to bring intimacy and joy to a marriage. It's meant to be fun, and it's meant to be joyful. It's not meant to be a power trip and it's not meant to be just about getting off.

See? I told you we're not going to agree on this one.

I actually agree with a lot of this even as an agnostic Jew, minus the sin part. I wouldn't characterize premarital sex as sin, but I would differentiate between casual sex and sex in a committed relationship.

Can you explain the bolded part? I've read that some women who save themselves for marriage, and view premarital sex as a sin, have trouble flipping the switch to view sex with their husbands as "a gift from God." That's part of why I view and prefer to talk about casual sex as different from sex in a marriage or committed relationship. The former may not be as rewarding as the latter. But then again it may be just dandy. Not all women need a commitment to have satisfying sex. I understand that you view it as a sin regardless. Just adding my point of view.

 

[intothewoods]

All of this is entirely rational, reasonable, sterling advice.

But parents are people, and they make mistakes too. And people are a lot more prone to making mistakes when they are feeling personally devastated.

Again, I'm not justifying whatever it is they're doing. I'm just saying that I can understand why they'd be distressed.

I just went through an analogous situation (not-bdsm or sex-related) with my sister and it was extremely difficult for me to be supportive. Extremely. At the end of the day, I made my point of view clear in the most rational and calm way I could and then said, okay, you've made your decision and then went on to talk about their happy future plans. In that way, I can be helpful and useful. It caused me a lot of grief and worry, which I have tried to put aside. At the end of the day, she is an adult and will have to live with her choices.

 

[Netzach]

All of this is entirely rational, reasonable, sterling advice.

But parents are people, and they make mistakes too. And people are a lot more prone to making mistakes when they are feeling personally devastated.

Again, I'm not justifying whatever it is they're doing. I'm just saying that I can understand why they'd be distressed.

A lot of times people say they're distressed on behalf of their children when they are more distressed on behalf of their own aspirations and desires and fantasies about them being let down. All coming-outs are kind of analagous.

Differentiating between those things can be a lifetime long process.

Outsiders will often tell me things like "oh it's just because she cares" or whatever. But the real story is multi-layered and it's as likely to be about her and her and not me at all.

Fortunately, in realizing that, I get somewhat, slightly, better at letting that shit bounce off me. Also a lifelong process.

I type this from home. I realize that 99 percent of the BS between me and my mother at the moment is really about her being unable and unwilling to draw any lines with HER mother. That's the kind of thing that comes over time.

 

[nh23]

My mother. To be fair, she was molested early in life.

She taught us from early on that men only want one thing from you, and they don't care if you want to give it back. We were not allowed to spend the night at friends houses if they had dads/uncle/older brothers living there, because the might molest us. We always had female babysitters, and weren't really allowed around men. Things got worse when I started to develop (I was 8), because she then worried that her male friends were hugging me cause they liked the feel of my boobs against their chest.

I fear becoming like this because of my own history. My daughter is 8 and i've yet to let her stay over with any of her girlfriends. I'm terrified of it. I've also asked that she not sit on Master's lap, and when he punishes her not to spank her bottom. I don't go as far as to see her as a slut, and I'm actually very frank with her about sex. It's not her I don't trust, it's everyone else. Like I know Master would never ever hurt her, but it just makes me feel squemish if she sits on his lap.

As to JM's question. I guess my Mother was my role model. My mom got pregnant for me when she was 13. So from a very early age she was very open and honest with me about sex, and I knew I could come to her when I needed birth control or whatever.

I had sex for the first time when I was 11. I know how incredibly young that is, but to this day I don't regret it. For me it was kind of a symbolic way of taking back what had been taken from me. I was doing it by choice, not having the decision made for me.

In turn I'm very open and honest with my kids about sex. They aren't old enough yet for details, but I plan to be like my Mother was with me. I want them to be able to come to me when they have issues. I'm not naive enough to believe if I don't tell them about it, they won't do it. Or to expect that they will wait until they are married etc.. It would be nice, but it's not a realistic expectation for most teens. They are most likely going to do it. So I want them to know they can come to me when they are ready.

 

[Netzach]

My sexual mores are totally wack, I guess. I don't see any difference in marital, extramarital, or premarital sex. It's the other parts of those puzzles that define relationships, fucking's some fucking.

And it IS a gift from God, I just don't think it came with as many strings. Dude, I really got assigned the wrong genitals.
I don't think this kind of thing leads inherently to nutty promiscuity, either. I've only averaged about a partner for each year I've been active, less actually, 9 in 15 years - one was exclusive for seven years and I haven't added anyone in the last five or six. It REALLY has to be interesting and good for me to bother, I still consider myself a selective person generally.

 

[graceanne]

All of this is entirely rational, reasonable, sterling advice.

But parents are people, and they make mistakes too. And people are a lot more prone to making mistakes when they are feeling personally devastated.

Again, I'm not justifying whatever it is they're doing. I'm just saying that I can understand why they'd be distressed.

I was in my room cleaning, thinking over this conversation, and I realized it's very easy for me to say these things when I'm not in the situation.

So, if I'm ever in that type of situation, I hope I follow my own advice.

I actually agree with a lot of this even as an agnostic Jew, minus the sin part. I wouldn't characterize premarital sex as sin, but I would differentiate between casual sex and sex in a committed relationship.

Can you explain the bolded part? I've read that some women who save themselves for marriage, and view premarital sex as a sin, have trouble flipping the switch to view sex with their husbands as "a gift from God." That's part of why I view and prefer to talk about casual sex as different from sex in a marriage or committed relationship. The former may not be as rewarding as the latter. But then again it may be just dandy. Not all women need a commitment to have satisfying sex. I understand that you view it as a sin regardless. Just adding my point of view.

Honestly, I can't answer for other people, and I rarely understand the thinking of my fellow Christians.

What I can say is the way I see it is logical. Sex is a gift for a married couple. A gift is meant to be enjoyed; it's not double sided.

My guess is that many Christians feel (whether they believe it or not) that anything that's fun is a sin. I worship a God with a sense of humor and a wonderful sense of fun. Fun, in and of itself, is not a sin.

Why others have problems with this is beyond me.

I fear becoming like this because of my own history. My daughter is 8 and i've yet to let her stay over with any of her girlfriends. I'm terrified of it. I've also asked that she not sit on Master's lap, and when he punishes her not to spank her bottom. I don't go as far as to see her as a slut, and I'm actually very frank with her about sex. It's not her I don't trust, it's everyone else. Like I know Master would never ever hurt her, but it just makes me feel squemish if she sits on his lap.

Honestly, that in and of itself isn't abusive. Over protective, yes. Abusive, no. The question is are you raising her to think that all men are abusers waiting to happen? Or are you just being extra careful?

 

[nh23]

Honestly, that in and of itself isn't abusive. Over protective, yes. Abusive, no. The question is are you raising her to think that all men are abusers waiting to happen? Or are you just being extra careful?

Just extra careful. I don't think all men are abusers, but I have issues on which ones to trust and not. So I just don't allow her to sit on any male's lap. Haven't got up the nerve to allow her to go to sleepovers etc..

 

[midwestyankee]

The closest thing I had to a role model for sex was Hugh Hefner. My father was completely absent from the growing-up conversation, with the exception of being a charter subscriber to Playboy and keeping all of his back issues for me to read surreptitiously. All he ever said to me about sex was, "If you have any questions, feel free to ask." I didn't bother. Instead, I read Hefner every month and also worked my way through all the books that Masters and Johnson wrote on human sexuality.

My education in the how-to of relationships came the hard way: by fucking up and trying again. I'm still on that same learning curve, it seems.

 

[Keroin]

The closest thing I had to a role model for sex was Hugh Hefner. My father was completely absent from the growing-up conversation, with the exception of being a charter subscriber to Playboy and keeping all of his back issues for me to read surreptitiously. All he ever said to me about sex was, "If you have any questions, feel free to ask." I didn't bother. Instead, I read Hefner every month and also worked my way through all the books that Masters and Johnson wrote on human sexuality.

My education in the how-to of relationships came the hard way: by fucking up and trying again. I'm still on that same learning curve, it seems.

Thank goodness for dads and dirty magazines! I wonder how many kids got their sex ed this way. *K raises her hand*

I don't think you're alone in the trial and error model of relationships, either. I know some people get it right, right out of the gate but that sure wasn't me. I like long term relationships but I don't know if I could do a lifetime of monogamy. I found owning a cat too much commitment.

 

[human_male]

.....

 

[midwestyankee]

Thank goodness for dads and dirty magazines! I wonder how many kids got their sex ed this way. *K raises her hand*

I don't think you're alone in the trial and error model of relationships, either. I know some people get it right, right out of the gate but that sure wasn't me. I like long term relationships but I don't know if I could do a lifetime of monogamy. I found owning a cat too much commitment.

Right about now, I don't think I even want to try relating to a pet rock. I'm still in the not-yet-a-grasshopper stage of my apprenticeship.

 

[Keroin]

My sexual mores are totally wack, I guess. I don't see any difference in marital, extramarital, or premarital sex. It's the other parts of those puzzles that define relationships, fucking's some fucking.


It REALLY has to be interesting and good for me to bother, I still consider myself a selective person generally.

Not so wack. I'm with you on all of this. 100%.

I do, however, believe that my sex thinking is far more aligned with the way males see things. Chuck calls me a "guybrid".

 

[Keroin]

Right about now, I don't think I even want to try relating to a pet rock. I'm still in the not-yet-a-grasshopper stage of my apprenticeship.

So, you won't be picking up any boiling cauldrons with your naked forearms in the near future? LOL.

(I kind of liked it back when this thread made you all feisty, BTW.)

 

[ZRT]

I always knew my sexuality was different. I just sort of made it up as I went along until I found a pattern that was comfortable for me.

Nothing really profound there.

 

[Homburg]

A lot of times people say they're distressed on behalf of their children when they are more distressed on behalf of their own aspirations and desires and fantasies about them being let down. All coming-outs are kind of analagous.

Differentiating between those things can be a lifetime long process.

Outsiders will often tell me things like "oh it's just because she cares" or whatever. But the real story is multi-layered and it's as likely to be about her and her and not me at all./QUOTE]

This is a solid portion of it. She is not living up to their expectations in this department, and they're not taking it all that well.

--

Oh, I'm sure it's frustrating but, seriously, if I had come to my parents around that age and told them that I was a masochist and I was going to become the slave of a man who was 30-something and already with another woman and had kids...wow, after they recovered from their heart attacks, they would have yelled and screamed and cried and probably disowned me, and maybe hired a hitman to deal with the guy. And my parents were fairly liberal compared to others I knew.

Soooooo, I still think MIS's parents are pretty cool, in the big picture.

*Yes, I know it probably didn't all happen the way I described above, but you get the general idea, I hope.

Heh, yeah, this is true. They aren't being utter assholes about it, and could certainly be worse. They are not, however, being "cool".

--

In most cases, I would agree 100%.

But if my college-aged niece had jumped from a multi-year abusive relationship to TPE slavery with a married, sadistic, middle-aged, out-of-state guy, it would be very, very hard for me to view that situation with a restrained, 'an uncle has no business commenting on his adult niece's choices' perspective. I like to think that I'd be smart enough not to react in a way that would be counterproductive. But I would definitely be concerned, for reasons relating to the whole "sound mind and body" capacity for consent thing Shank mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that whatever treatment they're dishing out is right, fair, helpful, or even reasonable. I'm just putting myself in the older relatives' shoes, and guessing that the situation must be painful for everybody.

This is largely my take on it. If you've noticed, I've complained very little about them. What complaints I've offered were usually about treatment unrelated to this issue.

It was actually the core of my anxiety prior to meeting them the first time. I empathised too well, and could not help but put myself into their shoes. The situation, from their perspective, is understandably spurious.

Still, their behaviour in other areas has been, well, aggravating. It adds to the existing aggravation, as I feel that it is unfair to allow their irritation here to roll over into other areas of the relationship.

 

[Keroin]

Heh, yeah, this is true. They aren't being utter assholes about it, and could certainly be worse. They are not, however, being "cool".

--

This is largely my take on it. If you've noticed, I've complained very little about them. What complaints I've offered were usually about treatment unrelated to this issue.

It was actually the core of my anxiety prior to meeting them the first time. I empathised too well, and could not help but put myself into their shoes. The situation, from their perspective, is understandably spurious.

Still, their behaviour in other areas has been, well, aggravating. It adds to the existing aggravation, as I feel that it is unfair to allow their irritation here to roll over into other areas of the relationship.

I think, in this situation, "not being utter assholes" is something to celebrate. LOL. Dude, you should see how my parents reacted to things I did that were minor, and I mean itty-bitty, compared to what MIS has chosen for her life.

Not that any kind of parental grief is fun. Not at all. I have a feeling they'll adjust. Some things can only happen with time. My guess is that once they see their daughter happy and flourishing, for a good length of time, they'll chill a bit. (I was 27 before mine eased up on me).

As for text in bold, I admit I'm dead curious to know what that was like - that first meeting. (But I won't be pushy, just curious). I haven't been around here long enough to know your history but it intrigues me.

 

[ZRT]

It's funny. The one area where I'm not reasonably open about my proclivities is with my parents.

They wouldn't get it. At all.

So I've always taken the 'they're better off not knowing' approach.

God damn, it's so awkward to even think about it.

 

[Homburg]

I think, in this situation, "not being utter assholes" is something to celebrate. LOL. Dude, you should see how my parents reacted to things I did that were minor, and I mean itty-bitty, compared to what MIS has chosen for her life.

Not that any kind of parental grief is fun. Not at all. I have a feeling they'll adjust. Some things can only happen with time. My guess is that once they see their daughter happy and flourishing, for a good length of time, they'll chill a bit. (I was 27 before mine eased up on me).

As for text in bold, I admit I'm dead curious to know what that was like - that first meeting. (But I won't be pushy, just curious). I haven't been around here long enough to know your history but it intrigues me.

There was a thread on here that went into details IIRC. I couldn't tell you which. The gist of it was what I said above. I found it far to easy to put myself in their shoes. I Will say again that I don't generally complain. The things I have gotten irritated about are the sort of things that I would be grumpy about with anyone I know.

My overall take is that time will sort it out as well.

--

It's funny. The one area where I'm not reasonably open about my proclivities is with my parents.

They wouldn't get it. At all.

So I've always taken the 'they're better off not knowing' approach.

God damn, it's so awkward to even think about it.

*shurg* I didn't get the choice. A supposed friend outed me "for the children."

ETA: It's been almost two and half years. My parents have mostly gotten used to the idea. They don't approve of course, but at least I don't have to hide MIS from them.

 

[Keroin]

It's funny. The one area where I'm not reasonably open about my proclivities is with my parents.

They wouldn't get it. At all.

So I've always taken the 'they're better off not knowing' approach.

God damn, it's so awkward to even think about it.

I love my dad but I'm an adult and there are things he just doesn't need to know. I would argue that even if I was open about it, he probably wouldn't want to know.

He came to one of my fights, back in the day, and had to leave half way through because I took a good blow to the face and he said, "I just can't stand anyone hurting my baby". (I was 21 at the time).

Nineteen years later and he still answers with, "How's my little baby?" whenever I call. Yeah, he'd be real happy to know what goes on in my bedroom. LOL.

There was a thread on here that went into details IIRC. I couldn't tell you which. The gist of it was what I said above. I found it far to easy to put myself in their shoes. I Will say again that I don't generally complain. The things I have gotten irritated about are the sort of things that I would be grumpy about with anyone I know.

My overall take is that time will sort it out as well.

--



*shurg* I didn't get the choice. A supposed friend outed me "for the children."

ETA: It's been almost two and half years. My parents have mostly gotten used to the idea. They don't approve of course, but at least I don't have to hide MIS from them.

WTF??!!! What kind of idiot does something like that? For the children, my sweet ass. Please.

 

[graceanne]

Just extra careful. I don't think all men are abusers, but I have issues on which ones to trust and not. So I just don't allow her to sit on any male's lap. Haven't got up the nerve to allow her to go to sleepovers etc..

*hugs* It's a hard situation. The girls had a friend in our old apartment complex who was not allowed to spend the night at other people's homes for that reason.

*shurg* I didn't get the choice. A supposed friend outed me "for the children."

ETA: It's been almost two and half years. My parents have mostly gotten used to the idea. They don't approve of course, but at least I don't have to hide MIS from them.

Sounds very similar to how MIS was 'outed'.

My best friend and sister know I like kinky sex. Mostly cause K got drunk and TMI'd them. That's as far as they know. Part because I know they wouldn't get it, and part because I don't think it's anyone's freaken business.