Why Is Sex Dirty?

[English Lady]

With all due respect to the discussion (and threadjacking) that has ensued, about whether or not we, as individuals, actually believe sex to be dirty, or whether or not we enjoy dirty sex (it's gone into a terminology debate), *THAT*, I believe was the whole point of Zoot's thread.

He was asking us (those of us who do acknowledge and enjoy dirty sex) how we define it; what does it mean to us... what makes a particular sexual act dirty for us. It's an interesting discussion, and one I was enjoying having.



Lou

I think, as the good Doc said, it does have something to do with control. Either who has control (like in your example, Lou) or losing control (like Doc's example.)

I think Dirty to me = lots of talking, grunting, moaning -lots of noise, or (going back to control) something making a person hold this in (a gag, the fact they're in a semi-public place, a command etc).

It's got to be wild, impulsive and higly passionate. Elements of danger, of being discovered come in to it too. Dirty sex is just that, it involves all kinds of bodily fluids. It involves writing in the mud or scrunching up sheets on a bed, dribbling massage oil then smearing it all over the bed covers. It's about not giving a damn about anything but the other person and the sex, and the journey to climax.


Or something like that

 

[Guest]

I think, as the good Doc said, it does have something to do with control. Either who has control (like in your example, Lou) or losing control (like Doc's example.)

I think Dirty to me = lots of talking, grunting, moaning -lots of noise, or (going back to control) something making a person hold this in (a gag, the fact they're in a semi-public place, a command etc).

It's got to be wild, impulsive and higly passionate. Elements of danger, of being discovered come in to it too. Dirty sex is just that, it involves all kinds of bodily fluids. It involves writing in the mud or scrunching up sheets on a bed, dribbling massage oil then smearing it all over the bed covers. It's about not giving a damn about anything but the other person and the sex, and the journey to climax.


Or something like that

That just made me hot... and breathless.

I think you got it, girl!

 

[English Lady]

That just made me hot... and breathless.

I think you got it, girl!

*blushes, giggles and attempts not to hijack the thread*

Dirty is good, really good. I love being a dirty, dirty girl

 

[Aurora Black]

Dirty is good, really good. I love being a dirty, dirty girl

From Bridget Jones's Diary:

Bridget: Apparently, I used to run round naked in his paddling pool.
Daniel Cleaver: I bet you did, you dirty bitch.

 

[Guest]

*blushes, giggles and attempts not to hijack the thread*

Dirty is good, really good. I love being a dirty, dirty girl

So do I.

And I wanna pick up on something you said... it's about the being noisy part of it: the filthy talk.

Being called a "Filthy slut" or a "dirty bitch" while actually having incredibly delicious dirty sex REALLY heigthens it, and makes it feel even more dirty. I even like it to the point of degredation (but I realise that doesn't float everyone's boat), but growling out, "Do me! Do me like the filthy whore I am!" makes it extra dirty.

Having my long hair held tight in his hands, while I'm down on him is also very filthy. And being down there, not only sucking on his dick, but servicing (licking/sucking/pushing my face into) his balls, for example, while he wanks over me, is very dirty - even more so when he blows his load in my face.

It's that power and control thing again, and feeling used, as a fuck toy. I know not everyone enjoys that, but I do, and I'm more than happy to admit it!

I think we know the mere act of sex is not dirty, but it's precisely because of that (and the lack of taboos nowadays) that we want to make it feel dirty, which, in turn, excites us.

Most of all - it's fun! It's not serious (although it can feel very serious in the "moment") - it's sex games.

Anyway, I've said enough now.

 

[elsol]

*burp*

Q: Why is Sex Dirty?
E's A: Because the loss of innocence is most commonly associated with sex.


Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[English Lady]

So do I.

And I wanna pick up on something you said... it's about the being noisy part of it: the filthy talk.

Being called a "Filthy slut" or a "dirty bitch" while actually having incredibly delicious dirty sex REALLY heigthens it, and makes it feel even more dirty. I even like it to the point of degredation (but I realise that doesn't float everyone's boat), but growling out, "Do me! Do me like the filthy whore I am!" makes it extra dirty.

Having my long hair held tight in his hands, while I'm down on him is also very filthy. And being down there, not only sucking on his dick, but servicing (licking/sucking/pushing my face into) his balls, for example, while he wanks over me, is very dirty - even more so when he blows his load in my face.

It's that power and control thing again, and feeling used, as a fuck toy. I know not everyone enjoys that, but I do, and I'm more than happy to admit it!

I think we know the mere act of sex is not dirty, but it's precisely because of that (and the lack of taboos nowadays) that we want to make it feel dirty, which, in turn, excites us.

Most of all - it's fun! It's not serious (although it can feel very serious in the "moment") - it's sex games.

Anyway, I've said enough now.

Exactly, and I've boldly the bit that I think is the real insightful sentance -I think you've got it right there.

 

[Liar]

In almost every human society, the private sphere is one of the most sacred things there is.

Save for surgery, sex is the most private and exposing thing you can't do by yourself. You have to let your personal territory be invaded. Letting go of the safety of distance and protective layers, and finding safety in sharing that space. It's a bigger leap than a first glance would suggest.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

In almost every human society, the private sphere is one of the most sacred things there is.

Save for surgery, sex is the most private and exposing thing you can't do by yourself. You have to let your personal territory be invaded. Letting go of the safety of distance and protective layers, and finding safety in sharing that space. It's a bigger leap than a first glance would suggest.

I absolutely adore this post. Beautifully worded. Thank you

 

[CharleyH]

I've been wondering about this for a long time-- What makes sex "dirty"?

Editing everything I just said because - Maybe dirty is simply our individual imaginations, Zoot, and not, in fact, a reality?

 

[AchtungNight]

I've been wondering about this for a long time-- What makes sex "dirty"?

It's more than just our upbringing or what we're taught. Sex is concsidered special the whole world over. It's dirtier in some cultures than in others (dirtier in the US than in Europe, for examp,e, and even dirtier yet in the Arab countries), but even in the most sexually liberated cultures it's still treated with a great deal of respect and circumspection. Shame and pwer are always associated with it.

I have a couple of ideas, but I don't know if they're of much use.

One is Freud's old idea that anatomy is destiny, that the fact that our sexual organs are also our excretory organs teaches us at a very young age that there's something forbidden about them. Might be something to that, but I'm not too convinced.

Another is that sex involves loss of personal control and a kind of power exchange that we find threatening to our autonomy. It makes us vulnerable and exposes us at our most unguarded moments. Sex is dangerous, and therfore has to be treated with a lot of respect.

But what makes a story "dirty"? There are plenty of stories on Lit of open, loving sex, and they always seem flat and pretty unintersting to me. I always look for the dirtiness, the sense of transgression. It's not just breaking social taboos--there's as many dull, undirty incest storries here as any other kind--it's something else.

I'd be interested in any ideas or opinions. What makes sex dirty and exciting?

--Zoot

I agree with these thoughts. I like breaking taboos in sex too. There's some you can't touch, period, others you can only touch in fantasy, but it's still fun to approach them. It's all in how you look at things. If you can get used to something you found dirty before, like bondage or ws, you can handle it. Same for any barrier that prevents sexual closeness. But you have to open your mind first, relax your inhibitions, and then... As I said, most of these taboos can't be talked about in the real world, though. Only in places such as this. That's why these places were created. I wonder if those who still insist on finding sex dirty knew what would result.

 

[fifty5]

Hi Lou, lovely to see you round again!

I think we're disputing semantics here

I think that goes to the heart of it. My reading of the thread is that there's lots of disagreement about using the word, and pretty well fuck all disagreement about the idea it is being used for (subject to personal inclinations).

I agree wholeheartedly with what the 'dirty' fans have said, except for using that word - but that's just me: I find its connotations are a turn-off.

Exploring a bit further, what does using other words with similar definitions do to everyone's thoughts?

Do you like your sex greasy, unclean, grimy, unwashed, muddy, or unhygienic, even unhealthy or diseased?

Do you like it raw, wild, untamed, forbidden (even illegal), outrageous, or uncontrolled / uncontrollable?

How about gritty or earthy?

Or are the special words those like dirty, mucky, filthy or sluttish - the backlash against puritanical denigration? (Feel free to add your own equivalents to any of the lists.)

My guess is that use of that word is likely to have started from the proximity to excreta, went through the control thing ("Don't do that, Billy, it's dirty!") and acquired backlash attraction - but I'm sure it's gone a long way.

If we can get rid of the semantic issue, maybe we can get back to answering Doc's question. Zoot, can you paraphrase it without that particular word? And if so, would you?

 

[Nirvanadragones]

I don't see it as disputing semantics - A discussion within a discussion. Not a debate on terminology.

The opening post closed with the following:

I'd be interested in any ideas or opinions. What makes sex dirty and exciting?

We all have subjective experiences (or desired subjective experiences) and we should be able to verbalise how we define something before we can relate that to what someone else sees.

It just so happens that the word "dirty" has various, yet very specific connotations to different people.

 

[shereads]

Twat Sighting!

I'm with Tatelou on what makes certain variations of sex dirtier/more taboo than the basic missionary position. But there's a larger question of why sex itself is perceived as a less-than-wholesome activity; something to be hidden, whispered about, giggled about by children stealing a peek at the secret stash of Playboy magazines their older brothers keep hidden beneath a mattress.

Joe W. equated sex with other activities that defy control, like recreational drug use and high-risk sports. I get the comparison, to the extent that all those things can free us, temporarily, from social restrictions and self-imposed boundaries, but only sex is perceived as 'dirty' or shameful; the others are just illegal, dangerous or unconventional.

Nobody hides the fact that they skydive or scuba dive or climb Mt. Everest. Pot smokers hide their habit to avoid arrest; among their peers, they don't hide what they're doing. But even friends who discuss every other aspect of their lives are sometimes uncomfortable with explicit discussions of sex.

Why is sex dirty?

A trip to the zoo will prove that other primates are no more private with their private parts than when peeling a banana. Homo sapiens seems to have invented the concept of Dirty Sex; the Victorians perfected it; the Superbowl Committee and the FCC have revived it with aplomb.

But why? It wasn't even a bare nipple!

Sexual taboos clearly function as a means of controlling one of the most powerful human functions: reproduction. Confining reproduction to married couples means requiring an official okay by someone in authority...In societies where power and wealth are inherited by males, it makes a mean kind of sense that husbands wouldn't want their wives to express a lot of enthusiasm about sex. (If she likes sex with her husband, what's to stop her from partying with the court jester when you're off at the Crusades and presenting you with an heir of questionable lineage? Safer to choose a bride who just shuts her eyes and thinks of England; the more distasteful she finds the Dirty Deed, the less likely she'll pop out a bastard who'll inherit your title, your land and your peasants.)

Mistresses made sure the men who could afford them didn't suffer too much from their wives' distaste for sex. Like wives in Bizarro World, they could enjoy sex, or pretend to and accept lavish gifts for a believable performance, because they didn't have to be trusted; their children needn't be legitimate and wouldn't gain anything by it if they were. But mistresses didn't get invited to join the Junior League or play bridge with the neighbors. Presumably, it was feared that their sexuality could contaminate ladies and narrow the pool of properly shocked and disgusted brides.

Maybe the ultimate tribute to Dirty Sex was the Victorian fashion of hiding furniture legs beneath draped fabric, to protect ladies from corrupting thoughts of naked limbs.

But why were Victorians so much more uptight than previous cultures? Why did the pornography they dug up at Pompeii shock and titillate them, when it was evidently okay for public display when it was made?

What is it about a big stone penis that makes one society reach for the smelling salts and inspires another one to throw an orgy?

And why, when I enjoy dirty stories so much and consider myself fairly liberal on this topic, does the thought of my parents having once had sex make me want to boil my eyeballs? (Okay, twice. Two children, two episodes of parental sex.)

We can't lay all the dirt at the feet of the Bible or the Koran or religious leaders; until a few centuries ago, there were popes who lived openly with their mistresses and children. (Referred to in polite society as 'nieces' and 'nephews.')

Maybe we should ask chimpanzees why human sex is dirty and chimp sex is just good, clean fun, like throwing feces at onlookers.

Someone else will have to ask them, though; I don't like to see them mastur..mastu...touching themselves.

 

[rgraham666]

Sex always for me is about emotion, passion.

I've written stuff that might be very vanilla. Basically missionary position with a little foreplay. But the emotion is there, the lust and love the characters have for each other.

And I've done stuff that push the boundaries a little. Women played with, teased, bound, aroused. Again, it's about emotion.

'Dirty' is in the beholder's mind. So is emotion. If a story catches, invokes emotion, who cares how dirty it is.

 

[Xelebes]

Why does dirty have to go hand-in-hand with exciting?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Exactly so! In my mind, what you described there is a very dirty and sexy act - and not only for the guy. I can imagine the girl would have found it very dirty indeed, not to mention frustrating (maybe another reason why it's a dirty act).

It is very much about power and control, and giving in to our most intimate and animalistic desires.


Now, to those of you in this thread who are saying, "I don't think sex is dirty". I think you are missing the point. Completely.

No, loving sex between two individuals isn't, in itself, dirty. BUT, some people (myself very much included) want sex to be dirty, and to feel filthy, so we go out of our way to experiment and find ways to sate those base, animalistic needs.

For example, I know for a fact that if I want a hard dirty fuck, I don't want him to be all "lovey-lovey" and take me to bed... I want him to grab hold of the back of my neck, shove me over (whatever surface is closest - or failing that, for him to tell me to hold my ankles), yank my knickers down - most likely after feeling me up through them first, then hold my hips and force his hard dick into my throbbing, needy cunt.

THAT'S dirty, and it's the best kind of sex (in my opinion).

I want to feel taken, I want to feel used. I want to give up all power and I want control to be taken away from me. When I feel that, I feel filthy, and it feels fucking amazing.

There's many, many more acts, too (loads including sucking off), but I wanna watch the footy in a min, so I have no time.

You dirty girl! (Said with eyes wide, brows raised, and big leering, knowing, "nod-nod-wink-wink" grin.)



(Substantive post in a minute - I'm reading the full thread for the first time. Had react to this one! )

 

[sweetnpetite]

I've been wondering about this for a long time-- What makes sex "dirty"?

It's more than just our upbringing or what we're taught. Sex is concsidered special the whole world over. It's dirtier in some cultures than in others (dirtier in the US than in Europe, for examp,e, and even dirtier yet in the Arab countries), but even in the most sexually liberated cultures it's still treated with a great deal of respect and circumspection. Shame and pwer are always associated with it.

I have a couple of ideas, but I don't know if they're of much use.

One is Freud's old idea that anatomy is destiny, that the fact that our sexual organs are also our excretory organs teaches us at a very young age that there's something forbidden about them. Might be something to that, but I'm not too convinced.

Another is that sex involves loss of personal control and a kind of power exchange that we find threatening to our autonomy. It makes us vulnerable and exposes us at our most unguarded moments. Sex is dangerous, and therfore has to be treated with a lot of respect.

But what makes a story "dirty"? There are plenty of stories on Lit of open, loving sex, and they always seem flat and pretty unintersting to me. I always look for the dirtiness, the sense of transgression. It's not just breaking social taboos--there's as many dull, undirty incest storries here as any other kind--it's something else.

I'd be interested in any ideas or opinions. What makes sex dirty and exciting?

--Zoot

Religion (not all but *certain* ones) makes sex forbidden which fuels the desire for it, not to mention oppresses and twists it, creating porn which only makes it 'dirtier' (thus "Keep sex dirty" that you occasionally see.) If religion
didn't make sex this big forbidden thing, there wouldn't even be a point to pornography. I just found out today that bukkake was invented because penetration was illegal to show on film so the film makers had to come up with another way to visually stimulate veiwers. (which I find funny, because I think most people would consider bukkake 'dirtier' than intercourse) In the end, it's a cycle. Repression fuels porn, porn fuels more religious pressure against it fueling more repression.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Forbidden, taboo

Danger. Pushing boundaries and restrictions. Defying inhibitions. Forbidden fruit.

Fifty5 wants a different word than "dirty." I think that word is "forbidden." This is from an essay I've written and can never decide whether to post:

"Added to this is the taboo, the attraction of forbidden fruit. . . . it's no accident that most of my own lesbian stories involve one or more women for whom it is the first time. This plays to the deliciously illicit dimension. During a 'first time' experience the excitement of violating the taboo is most intense. In time that part of the thrill wears off as one becomes habituated to the formerly forbidden experience."

That's the key for me: the forbidden, illicit aspects. I'm kind of with Lou-Lou in that regard, although the specifics are different.

Here's part of my response to a "fan" excited by my incest story: "I totally understand what you mean about the 'mommy-little girl' fantasy. Actually, it appears that being titillated by the idea of incest is almost as universal as the taboo itself, even though hardly anybody would ever really want to do it. It's the 'forbidden fruit' aspect, I guess."

Shereads writes. "Sexual taboos clearly function as a means of controlling one of the most powerful human functions: reproduction." I think this goes a lot deeper than just Christianity or any particular cultural iteration, and no doubt it's where the "forbidden" and "illicit" come from. Here's a thoughtful essay on some aspects of that relevant to the current socio/political environment:

Phillip Longman The Return of Patriarchy Foreign Policy March/April 2006 http://www.fsa.ulaval.ca/personnel/vernag/eh/f/cause/lectures/The return of patriarchy.htm

 

[Seattle Zack]

Well, an interesting extension of the Doc's original query, "what makes sex dirty?" is "how can we profit from it?"

Anyone who publishes in the mainstream press has often run up against this. Step over the line, and your erotic masterpiece becomes mere porn. But, then again, I've read romance novels where the heroine was gang-raped by pirates. And liked it. Dirty? Without a doubt. Marketable? Depends on the story.

It's very powerful, that essence of the forbidden (Lolita, anyone?), and when we can sprinkle it into our tales effectively, it makes for a compelling read. Just like any other conflict, it needs to be presented appropriately, in context, and if the reader buys it, you've hit a home run.

 

[Edward Teach]

Is sex dirty?

"Only if it's done right" - Woody Allen

Eddie the Succinct

.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Being called a "Filthy slut" or a "dirty bitch" while actually having incredibly delicious dirty sex REALLY heigthens it, and makes it feel even more dirty. I even like it to the point of degredation (but I realise that doesn't float everyone's boat), but growling out, "Do me! Do me like the filthy whore I am!" makes it extra dirty.

Having my long hair held tight in his hands, while I'm down on him is also very filthy. And being down there, not only sucking on his dick, but servicing (licking/sucking/pushing my face into) his balls, for example, while he wanks over me, is very dirty - even more so when he blows his load in my face.

It's that power and control thing again, and feeling used, as a fuck toy. I know not everyone enjoys that, but I do, and I'm more than happy to admit it!

*GULP*
damn.....
I need a shower, now...

can I just say, "Hell yes!" to this post!?

and I think El Sol was really onto something... with that "loss of innocence" thing...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Danger. Pushing boundaries and restrictions. Defying inhibitions. Forbidden fruit.

Fifty5 wants a different word than "dirty." I think that word is "forbidden." This is from an essay I've written and can never decide whether to post:

"Added to this is the taboo, the attraction of forbidden fruit. . . . it's no accident that most of my own lesbian stories involve one or more women for whom it is the first time. This plays to the deliciously illicit dimension. During a 'first time' experience the excitement of violating the taboo is most intense. In time that part of the thrill wears off as one becomes habituated to the formerly forbidden experience."

That's the key for me: the forbidden, illicit aspects. I'm kind of with Lou-Lou in that regard, although the specifics are different.

Here's part of my response to a "fan" excited by my incest story: "I totally understand what you mean about the 'mommy-little girl' fantasy. Actually, it appears that being titillated by the idea of incest is almost as universal as the taboo itself, even though hardly anybody would ever really want to do it. It's the 'forbidden fruit' aspect, I guess."

Shereads writes. "Sexual taboos clearly function as a means of controlling one of the most powerful human functions: reproduction." I think this goes a lot deeper than just Christianity or any particular cultural iteration, and no doubt it's where the "forbidden" and "illicit" come from. Here's a thoughtful essay on some aspects of that relevant to the current socio/political environment:

Phillip Longman The Return of Patriarchy Foreign Policy March/April 2006 http://www.fsa.ulaval.ca/personnel/vernag/eh/f/cause/lectures/The return of patriarchy.htm

Well, I think that's interesting and there's something to it, but there are plenty of other things that are forbidden that aren't "dirty"--robbery, child-neglect, embezzlement, wiping your face in the tablecloth. And on the other hand, you can have nice, hot, dirty sex without really violating any taboos too. Two people having wild, bed-breaking sex can be hot and dirty without breaking any taboos.

I do agree that one of the reasons sex is so powerful is because of its procreative nature, whether we want to admit it or not. I mean, as far as nature is concerned, sex is what we're here for and it's the ultimate act of our lives, passing on our genes, so its importance is going to be wired pretty deep into us. We're going to be very cautious about it. But what does giving someone a handjob in a theater or fingering a girl out behind a bar have to do with procreation?

Of course, sex is all tied up with love too and, love is terribly important and dangerous and often threatening. It occurred to me that maybe "dirtyness": itself is simply sex without love, but that's not quite right either. You can be wildly in love with someone and still have thrillingly filthy sex, thank God.

I'm kind of with Joe W. on this. Just like fast cars and drugs and extreme sports are "sexy" because they threaten us, I think sex is dirty because it threatens us too. It threatens our autonomy, our ideas of who we are.

I think for me it's all about surrender to our feelings and loss of control and having our personal or "sexual" space invaded. It's emotional and mental, not physical. The physical stuff is just the instigator. The seriously sexy and dirty stuff happens in the mind.

 

[NoJo]

I'm kind of with Joe W. on this. Just like fast cars and drugs and extreme sports are "sexy" because they threaten us, I think sex is dirty because it threatens us too. It threatens our autonomy, our ideas of who we are.

By that rather tenuous logic, extreme sports are dirty.

I think that in order to understand the question posed by the thread title, it's important to first tackle the prior question is about why dirt is dirty.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Well, I think that's interesting and there's something to it, but there are plenty of other things that are forbidden that aren't "dirty"--robbery, child-neglect, embezzlement, wiping your face in the tablecloth. And on the other hand, you can have nice, hot, dirty sex without really violating any taboos too. Two people having wild, bed-breaking sex can be hot and dirty without breaking any taboos.

I do agree that one of the reasons sex is so powerful is because of its procreative nature, whether we want to admit it or not. I mean, as far as nature is concerned, sex is what we're here for and it's the ultimate act of our lives, passing on our genes, so its importance is going to be wired pretty deep into us. We're going to be very cautious about it. But what does giving someone a handjob in a theater or fingering a girl out behind a bar have to do with procreation?

Of course, sex is all tied up with love too and, love is terribly important and dangerous and often threatening. It occurred to me that maybe "dirtyness": itself is simply sex without love, but that's not quite right either. You can be wildly in love with someone and still have thrillingly filthy sex, thank God.

I'm kind of with Joe W. on this. Just like fast cars and drugs and extreme sports are "sexy" because they threaten us, I think sex is dirty because it threatens us too. It threatens our autonomy, our ideas of who we are.

I think for me it's all about surrender to our feelings and loss of control and having our personal or "sexual" space invaded. It's emotional and mental, not physical. The physical stuff is just the instigator. The seriously sexy and dirty stuff happens in the mind.

Good points all, Doc. One point of clarification: I don't think the analogy with "robbery, child-neglect, embezzlement, wiping your face in the tablecloth" holds, because none of those things involve acts that are intrinsically pleasurable. (Which does not mean that some robbers have a big hard one at the moment of, and wank as soon as they're in private with the boodle. Emphasis on "intrinsically.") I do think "forbidden" is an important element, but you've shown that it's an incomplete explanation. The fingering in the theater and loss of innocence points, and the danger of fast cars analogy, all strike chords with me.