Wives Loving Wives

[sirhugs]

it’s simply genetics and primal instincts.

To the contrary, several anthropological studies suggest that the genetic risks underlie an instinct NOT to engage in incest. Obviously, early man did not have the means to calculate the risks, but in most civilisations, incest has been taboo from ancient even prehistoric times.
Because inbreeding results more commonly in defects, natural selection then accounts for breeding any incest "gene" out of the population. Populations that inbred has a much higher rate of dying off.
Even in European nobility, one of the last bastions of intermarriage, there was nothing "primal" or "instinct" about it- it was a combination of politics and wanting to keep the bloodlines "pure", very intentionally, which is the opposite of instinctual.

 

[Ianus4]

Don’t get me started on the bad boy crap, from experience this gets messy quickly.

I’m not saying this is the right direction; I’m saying you can’t isolate a phenomenon from its context. Traditional social roles have changed, but the role of men in this new society isn’t defined in a way that’s reassuring to everyone involved. Many feel they have to meet conflicting expectations. I think LW is a very good reflection of this, and we shouldn’t be horrified by it, but rather understand the processes and grasp what is actually behind the aggression. Just as incel culture is not a phenomenon in and of itself, but rather a symptom of a crisis in society. Where today the majority of young people are poorer than their parents were, independent housing is nearly unattainable.

 

[EmilyMiller]

If poor nerds with glasses were the objects of desire, men obviously wouldn’t want to be aggressive "alphas" either.

This is blaming women for men’s behavior. That might not be your intent, but it’s the logical conclusion of what you said.

It’s like saying if women had sex with men more there would be not rape. Really?

 

[EmilyMiller]

where children never had a father figure in their lives, but instead the image of a man was shaped by the streets.

[citation needed]

 

[Ianus4]

This is blaming women for men’s behavior. That might not be your intent, but it’s the logical conclusion of what you said.

It’s like saying if women had sex with men more there would be not rape. Really?

That’s really not what I said. "Aggressive" doesn't mean rape, but rather, for example, that many women are attracted to a guy who is assertive and dominant. Of course, violence can be a side effect of this. Many men also make (bad) choices based on their instincts, but that wasn't the main point here. But we can talk about that too, because it's also the cause of many divorces.

 

[sirhugs]

This is blaming women for men’s behavior. That might not be your intent, but it’s the logical conclusion of what you said.

It’s like saying if women had sex with men more there would be not rape. Really?

You know that I hate to disagree with you, so I agree.
Where I quibble is not about the excusing bad behaviour, but in wanting to make a distinction betwen "bad" behaviour, and what I might call "sad" behaviour. There seem to be a lot of males who just have no clue. But they still have a sex drive. What we need are more safe legal and socially acceptable ways to solve this issue. and the prblem seems to have gotten worse since the rise of the Internet, not better.
And then there's the whole intimacy problem, and (most) men needing it as much as (most) women, but being so cluelless at finding it.
We need a sequel to the movie "Clueless". Maybe called "Clueless Men". Casting it should be easy.

 

[tristantrotsky]

Do stories of married women stepping out with other women get the same blow-back as stories of wives cheating with men? Do readers see the girl-girl cheating sex as infidelity or an opportunity for a 'vicarious threesome'. How should such a story resolve? In sexual politics, what does the male protagonist think about himself when his wife cheats with another man? With another woman? If a spouse in a lesbian couple cheats with a man is it a lesbian story or a Loving Wives story?

There is nothing more beautiful to my eyes than two women seeking to satisfy each other's erotic drives, whether that be two wives exploring and furthering the possibilities of their sex life experience, or whatever configuration their desire expresses itself. Every woman has a duty to themselves to at least sample Sapphic loving... within, or beyond their conventional marital situation. I fully applaud them.

 

[Ianus4]

[citation needed]

Correction: loving and attentive parents, regardless of their gender.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That’s really not what I said. "Aggressive" doesn't mean rape, but rather, for example, that many women are attracted to a guy who is assertive and dominant. Of course, violence can be a side effect of this. Many men also make (bad) choices based on their instincts, but that wasn't the main point here. But we can talk about that too, because it's also the cause of many divorces.

You said:

If poor nerds with glasses were the objects of desire, men obviously wouldn’t want to be aggressive "alphas" either.

That’s not really open to misinterpretation in any way.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Correction: loving and attentive parents, regardless of their gender.

Agreed - but not my point. Many men who treat women like dirt had fathers who were present growing up. Maybe those fathers weren’t great role models, maybe they were. Either way people are responsible for their own behavior.

 

[sirhugs]

Agreed - but not my point. Many men who treat women like dirt had fathers who were present growing up. Maybe those fathers weren’t great role models, maybe they were. Either way people are responsible for their own behavior.

A lot like the question "Why do serial killers come from good families"?"
aka the inevitable interviews with the neighbours who all comment on how normal tey seemed.
The variety is a treat on those rare occassions where somebody says "Everybody knew that they were weird. we all stayed clear of them."

 

[Ianus4]

Agreed - but not my point. Many men who treat women like dirt had fathers who were present growing up. Maybe those fathers weren’t great role models, maybe they were. Either way people are responsible for their own behavior.

Of course, there are people like that, and individual predisposition plays a role, but the influence of the environment cannot be ignored. Nor is accepting an abusive relationship something we’re born with.

 

[Ianus4]

You know that I hate to disagree with you, so I agree.
Where I quibble is not about the excusing bad behaviour, but in wanting to make a distinction betwen "bad" behaviour, and what I might call "sad" behaviour. There seem to be a lot of males who just have no clue. But they still have a sex drive. What we need are more safe legal and socially acceptable ways to solve this issue. and the prblem seems to have gotten worse since the rise of the Internet, not better.
And then there's the whole intimacy problem, and (most) men needing it as much as (most) women, but being so cluelless at finding it.
We need a sequel to the movie "Clueless". Maybe called "Clueless Men". Casting it should be easy.

That is exactly why stories about ordinary people are so important. And that is why I really appreciate it when someone writes a believable reconciliation story for LW.

 

[sirhugs]

That is exactly why stories about ordinary people are so important. And that is why I really appreciate it when someone writes a believable reconciliation story for LW.

The BTB crowd would burn it to the ground.
I began my Lit writing "career" with Loving Wives tales where hubby was supportive and the open marriage pleased both. This was back before LW became a total sewer.
Even allowing for the fact that I had a lot to learn as a writer, they got less positive feedback than when I broadened into other categories.

 

[Ianus4]

The BTB crowd would burn it to the ground.
I began my Lit writing "career" with Loving Wives tales where hubby was supportive and the open marriage pleased both. This was back before LW became a total sewer.
Even allowing for the fact that I had a lot to learn as a writer, they got less positive feedback than when I broadened into other categories.

Some people are truly hopeless, but judging by the comments, most BTBers also praise the good reconciliation stories. It’s true that they punish harshly if they don’t feel forgiveness is warranted, but if the redemption works, even the hardest of hearts will soften. It’s a very difficult subgenre indeed, but most readers are grateful for it.

 

[Annabelle1990]

Let me reframe the question. I have a story where I share a vibrator with my best friend. That's not even what the story is about. I just use that experience to describe my relationship with my best friend.

We did not consider that having sex. It was just two young girls exploring their bodies, and we only had access to one vibrator so we had to share.

I'll share a link. Read that story, and then tell me - if Sarah and I did that now and you were her husband.. If you walked in on us, would you want us to stop, or would it turn you on? If we saw you watching and moved from sharing a vibrator - one of us using it at a time - to using it on one another, and then to having sex, would it bother you, or turn you on?

I'm going to guess 90% of men would not want us to stop. And from the feedback on that story, if I wrote an alternate universe where Sarah and I became lesbos who occasionally asked men to play prop, it would be very popular.

I might try that too. It would be true fiction but that might be fun to try writing.

https://www.literotica.com/s/our-first-threesome-pt-01-1

 

[Annabelle1990]

There is a lot of discussion on here regarding aggressive behavior. I think society can bear some fault for claiming masculinity is toxic. Masculinity is not toxic. I would call both of my men masculine alphas.

But they would never hurt a woman, and would go out of their way to protect one.

No means no. There is no possible way to justify anything else.

But at the same time if I say I really must go and you respond with, "Baby it's cold outside," that is playful banter and there is nothing wrong with that. If I really want to go I will. If I want you to talk me into staying, I'll play along.

 

[NoTalentHack]

The BTB crowd would burn it to the ground.
I began my Lit writing "career" with Loving Wives tales where hubby was supportive and the open marriage pleased both. This was back before LW became a total sewer.
Even allowing for the fact that I had a lot to learn as a writer, they got less positive feedback than when I broadened into other categories.

I would disagree. Roughly 30-40% (I haven't checked in a bit, but I try to keep it around that level) of the stories I write in LW end in some form of reconciliation, and I usually write about normal people; of those, none are lower than a 4.2, and most of them are at least within spitting distance of an H.

Do I get the "1* cuck shit" comments in there, too? Sure; you're not going to please everyone. But the flipside is that I also have stories where the couple don't reconcile (at least not int he sense where they stay together, i.e., they still divorce), where even some of the hardcore BTBers are like, "Aw, man, I hoped they'd make it."

 

[NoTalentHack]

Let me reframe the question. I have a story where I share a vibrator with my best friend. That's not even what the story is about. I just use that experience to describe my relationship with my best friend.

We did not consider that having sex. It was just two young girls exploring their bodies, and we only had access to one vibrator so we had to share.

I'll share a link. Read that story, and then tell me - if Sarah and I did that now and you were her husband.. If you walked in on us, would you want us to stop, or would it turn you on? If we saw you watching and moved from sharing a vibrator - one of us using it at a time - to using it on one another, and then to having sex, would it bother you, or turn you on?

I'm going to guess 90% of men would not want us to stop. And from the feedback on that story, if I wrote an alternate universe where Sarah and I became lesbos who occasionally asked men to play prop, it would be very popular.

I might try that too. It would be true fiction but that might be fun to try writing.

https://www.literotica.com/s/our-first-threesome-pt-01-1

I think it would bother me, because it isn't something we'd discussed, i.e., it's still cheating.

 

[Annabelle1990]

I think it would bother me, because it isn't something we'd discussed, i.e., it's still cheating.

How is two girls sharing a vibrator cheating if they are not touching each other or using the vibrator on each other? Don't guys masturbate in front of each other when you watch porn? I'll bet you don't consider THAT cheating.

 

[NoTalentHack]

There is a lot of discussion on here regarding aggressive behavior. I think society can bear some fault for claiming masculinity is toxic. Masculinity is not toxic. I would call both of my men masculine alphas.

But they would never hurt a woman, and would go out of their way to protect one.

No means no. There is no possible way to justify anything else.

But at the same time if I say I really must go and you respond with, "Baby it's cold outside," that is playful banter and there is nothing wrong with that. If I really want to go I will. If I want you to talk me into staying, I'll play along.

Most people using the phrase "toxic masculinity" are not claiming that masculinity is inherently toxic; they're saying that there are expressions of masculinity that are toxic. That's what's being called out. This type of stuff:

 

[Lifestyle66]

When it comes to readers looking for stories to fit their mood at the time, anyone wanting girl-on-girl sex might look into Lesbians. If they want guy-on-guy, there's Gay. Trans, BDSM, Non-con/Reluctance, etc have categories where someone might find stories to fit the mood if that's what they prefer.

Which category does a guy look into if his mood is: "My cheating bitch deserves what she gets!"

I think THAT is what drives the train on about 40% of the LW audiences' mood when they read any story there. They've read the category descriptions, and that description for LW comes the closest where they might get the stories they want.

So, if you post other types of "loving wives" tales of reconciliation, swingers, or even a lesbian couple with one wife cheating, you'll have to contend with that 40% faction possibly reading your story, because they have nowhere else to look to find what they WANT!

They are part of the audience, so take the good with the bad.

 

[Annabelle1990]

Most people using the phrase "toxic masculinity" are not claiming that masculinity is inherently toxic; they're saying that there are expressions of masculinity that are toxic. That's what's being called out. This type of stuff:

View attachment 2630796

That's all bullshit. Behaviors are toxic. Masculinity is not. That's just a bullshit attempt to make men ashamed of being men.

 

[NoTalentHack]

How is two girls sharing a vibrator cheating if they are not touching each other or using the vibrator on each other? Don't guys masturbate in front of each other when you watch porn? I'll bet you don't consider THAT cheating.

I have literally never masturbated in front of another person when watching porn unless sex was on the table, i.e, as foreplay. I don't know that I know anyone who has, even amongst the lovely, rather debauched group of grad students I used to hang out with, ones who threw parties that were just this side of orgies and were into polyamory way back in the 90s.

I am very open-minded when it comes to sex and sexuality, and if this were something I'd discussed with my SO beforehand, I'd have no problem with it. If it were "oh, teehee, we just got soooo horny and started masturbating with the same dildo?" I'll be honest that I'd play it by ear, but most likely I'd very politely but firmly ask the other woman to get dressed and leave so my wife and I could have a serious talk.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Agreed - but not my point. Many men who treat women like dirt had fathers who were present growing up. Maybe those fathers weren’t great role models, maybe they were. Either way people are responsible for their own behavior.

[Citation needed]