Wives Loving Wives

[CalBishForNow]

@NoTalentHack puts this very well in one of his stories, noting this situation is just as unimaginable for a straight woman as PPD is for a man. If a woman’s child is mistakenly switched at the hospital, it’s a scandal; it makes the news.

PPD is probably short for post-partum depression in this context, if anyone else is confused. My first thought was about personal protective devices, and some kind of tuberculosis test and paranoid personality disorder were also higher google hits.

If a man raises another man’s biological child as a result of his spouse’s infidelity, the media calls it a “tradition”—something that has always existed.

Citation needed. This is ridiculous.

Which category does a guy look into if his mood is: "My cheating bitch deserves what she gets!"

Non-Erotic seems logical to me, but maybe that's because I don't have enough toxic masculinity deep-seated unhealthy implementation of traditional gender roles.

That's all bullshit. Behaviors are toxic. Masculinity is not. That's just a bullshit attempt to make men ashamed of being men.

This is missing the point in a big way. When adjectives modify nouns, it generally isn't saying that the whole of the noun is the thing. The existence of the phrase "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean that all masculinity is toxic any more than the existence of the phrase "black cat" means that all cats are black.

 

[NoTalentHack]

That's all bullshit. Behaviors are toxic. Masculinity is not. That's just a bullshit attempt to make men ashamed of being men.

This might be a more useful explanation:

https://cohoproductions.org/old/blog/toxic-masculinity-care/

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This is blaming women for men’s behavior. That might not be your intent, but it’s the logical conclusion of what you said.

It’s like saying if women had sex with men more there would be not rape. Really?

Actually, males modifying their behavior to attract females is a core aspect of sexual selection.
This is a foundational concept in evolution. Anyone with a basic concept of biology knows it.
Males engage in behavior that is rewarded by the female of the species, even when it is risky.

 

[Annabelle1990]

This might be a more useful explanation:

https://cohoproductions.org/old/blog/toxic-masculinity-care/

So the best you can do is to provide a link that discusses a work of fiction.

I have two boys and I cannot think of a form of child abuse that would be worse than raising them to think their natural impulses are toxic. Luckily for them I can send them to private schools when the time comes.

The concept of toxic masculinity is child abuse.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

A lot like the question "Why do serial killers come from good families"?"
aka the inevitable interviews with the neighbours who all comment on how normal tey seemed.
The variety is a treat on those rare occassions where somebody says "Everybody knew that they were weird. we all stayed clear of them."

Most serial killers seem to have come from fucked up abusive families. They may have seemed normal to the neighbors, but horrible things were going on behind closed doors.

 

[NoTalentHack]

So the best you can do is to provide a link that discusses a work of fiction.

I have two boys and I cannot think of a form of child abuse that would be worse than raising them to think their natural impulses are toxic. Luckily for them I can send them to private schools when the time comes.

The concept of toxic masculinity is child abuse.

I mean, I can send you scholarly works instead, but I thought something that explained it in a simpler, more concrete example might be more useful. But apparently not, and I'm trying to not get into pointless arguments on the internet anymore, so...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Citation needed. This is ridiculous.

Nothing says evil patriarchy like the government forcing a guy to pay for kids who are not his.

https://www.nbc26.com/news/national...not-be-the-father-but-still-owe-child-support

 

[Lifestyle66]

Non-Erotic seems logical to me, but maybe that's because I don't have enough toxic masculinity deep-seated unhealthy implementation of traditional gender roles.

Just my guess, but I think a majority of the readers on this site are male which is why I phrased it as "bitch". But the same goes for women. Where do they go looking for a story about their cheating "bastard" of a husband getting what he deserves? Does anyone refer to that as "toxic femineity"?

You say to put them into Non-Erotic, but they ARE erotic stories with erotic content!

I actually wrote such a story, and posted it to LW: "Going Down Together", about a wife getting "even" with her cheating husband.

It did rather well (for me and my average) at 3.81/341 votes in LW.

EDIT: My whole "Book Club" series includes a club where wives get "even" with their cheating husbands. Although, you'll find that offensive, too. But try reading through the origin of that club in "The Fucking Bitch!" to see who really holds the power.

 

[Annabelle1990]

I mean, I can send you scholarly works instead, but I thought something that explained it in a simpler, more concrete example might be more useful. But apparently not, and I'm trying to not get into pointless arguments on the internet anymore, so...

Scholarly works out of the humanities?!? I'm sorry but those fields don't even exist in a scholarly sense anymore.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Scholarly works out of the humanities?!? I'm sorry but those fields don't even exist in a scholarly sense anymore.

God, I wish there was an eyeroll react on here.

 

[CalBishForNow]

Nothing says evil patriarchy like the government forcing a guy to pay for kids who are not his.

https://www.nbc26.com/news/national...not-be-the-father-but-still-owe-child-support

That isn't an example of the media saying it's a tradition. That's a story about perverse consequences of a law (or body of court rulings) and the people trying to change it. It never was a tradition, the general concept of paying child support is probably less than a hundred years old and like so many other things it runs into problems when people lie outright, and the story is about proposals to fix/change that. That's the opposite of tradition.

You say to put them into Non-Erotic, but they ARE erotic stories with erotic content!

Some are, sure. Many aren't. I could probably find a dozen LW stories from the past month with no sex scene worth mentioning, nor even any flirtation or general sense of arousal tied to sexual content. The cheating bitch/bastard stories that also are erotic belong in LW, sure.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Some are, sure. Many aren't. I could probably find a dozen LW stories from the past month with no sex scene worth mentioning, nor even any flirtation or general sense of arousal tied to sexual content. The cheating bitch/bastard stories that also are erotic belong in LW, sure.

If you ever dare read the ones I mentioned above, leave a comment so I know it was you.

EDIT: And BTW, "That Look of Yours" written for Pink Orchid was the sequel to "Going Down Together".

 

[EmilyMiller]

Most people using the phrase "toxic masculinity" are not claiming that masculinity is inherently toxic; they're saying that there are expressions of masculinity that are toxic. That's what's being called out. This type of stuff:

View attachment 2630796

Precisely - men aren’t toxic. The sweetest person I know is a guy. Some behavior by some men is toxic.

The whole alpha misconception is based on debunked work relating to the behavior of wolves, compounded by wishful thinking by some men who crave having more agency in their lives.

 

[yowser]

Some are, sure. Many aren't. I could probably find a dozen LW stories from the past month with no sex scene worth mentioning, nor even any flirtation or general sense of arousal tied to sexual content. The cheating bitch/bastard stories that also are erotic belong in LW, sure.

I'll second the observation that 'eroticism' is downplayed in LW. The marriage is always the central feature, and the erotic aspects of it are missing or minimal in the majority of stories there, in contrast to almost all the other categories.

 

[CalBishForNow]

If you ever dare read the ones I mentioned above, leave a comment so I know it was you.

EDIT: And BTW, "That Look of Yours" written for Pink Orchid was the sequel to "Going Down Together".

Heh. I already have read four stories of yours (Yoga series and Hot-Wifing Gone Wrong) and have five more on my to-read list. I'll think about the two you mentioned here, but no promises.

 

[Annabelle1990]

God, I wish there was an eyeroll react on here.

You I do realize that what qualifies as 'scholarly' in the humanities is now nothing more than opinion, with the opinions of others in the same 'field' qualifying as 'peer review,' right? Not only that but the humanities consider anything more outrageous than what they have already approved to be 'courageous,' encouraging each other to continue to move further and further from objective truth.

I know someone is whack as soon as they use a phrase like 'toxic masculinity.'

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That isn't an example of the media saying it's a tradition. That's a story about perverse consequences of a law (or body of court rulings) and the people trying to change it. It never was a tradition, the general concept of paying child support is probably less than a hundred years old and like so many other things it runs into problems when people lie outright, and the story is about proposals to fix/change that. That's the opposite of tradition.

Some are, sure. Many aren't. I could probably find a dozen LW stories from the past month with no sex scene worth mentioning, nor even any flirtation or general sense of arousal tied to sexual content. The cheating bitch/bastard stories that also are erotic belong in LW, sure.

You're literally saying it's not a tradition because people are trying to change it...
Yes, the article is pointing out that it's unfair crap, but it's the existing law. The male dominated legislature passed laws doing that to other men.
There are plenty of other examples of similar.

 

[Annabelle1990]

God, I wish there was an eyeroll react on here.

I got a degree in finance for a reason. The level of subjectivity in the Humanities - they should publish their work here if it were not too boring for anyone to read.

 

[CalBishForNow]

You're literally saying it's not a tradition because people are trying to change it...

And because it's not normal. Those laws were not passed with the intention of creating that situation. It happens in a small minority of child support cases as an unintended consequence of people either breaking their marriage vows or committing actual fraud. "Tradition" doesn't just mean "thing that happens now and then," it means "thing that happens a lot and people think is normal and/or good." No person in "the media" or anywhere else ever said that the situation in that story was normal or good.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And because it's not normal. Those laws were not passed with the intention of creating that situation. It happens in a small minority of child support cases as an unintended consequence of people either breaking their marriage vows or committing actual fraud. "Tradition" doesn't just mean "thing that happens now and then," it means "thing that happens a lot and people think is normal and/or good." No person in "the media" or anywhere else ever said that the situation in that story was normal or good.

Actually, there are plenty of folks who argue that this is normal and good. Plenty of family advocates push for it as being "in the best interests of the child" and argue from that perspective.
You really ought to do some research before you make these bold pronouncements.
Concepts like Parentage by Estoppel are well established.

 

[NoTalentHack]

And because it's not normal. Those laws were not passed with the intention of creating that situation. It happens in a small minority of child support cases as an unintended consequence of people either breaking their marriage vows or committing actual fraud. "Tradition" doesn't just mean "thing that happens now and then," it means "thing that happens a lot and people think is normal and/or good." No person in "the media" or anywhere else ever said that the situation in that story was normal or good.

While I would agree with this, I'd also point out that certain countries (most notably France) did ban DNA testing to determine paternity specifically because of tradition. I mean, their language is something more like (from a Google summary, but accurate):

French law prioritizes the legal and social definition of family over purely biological ties. The French Council of State has long upheld the ban to preserve the "peace of families", operating under the premise that discovering unacknowledged paternity questions could cause undue family disruption.

... but the "read between the lines" of it, commented on even in French media at the time is, in a society where infidelity is so common and largely accepted (only 47% of French respondents in a Pew research study considered extramarital affairs to be morally unacceptable vs. 79% of overall respondents), that allowing for paternity testing which could definitively prove paternity would be massively disruptive. While judges are technically able to order paternity tests, they rarely do, and if a private citizen gets one, it's punishable by both fines (up to 15K Euros) and jail time (up to one year in prison).

And, yes, I have considered writing a LW story hinging on this.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Most people using the phrase "toxic masculinity" are not claiming that masculinity is inherently toxic; they're saying that there are expressions of masculinity that are toxic. That's what's being called out. This type of stuff:

View attachment 2630796

No offense, but this list here is BS. Sure, some of it does make sense, but the rest either infringes upon general freedoms and choices, isn't just a male trait, or just hinges on some idea of a utopia rather than the real world.

Not all of what is perceived as traditional masculinity is toxic masculinity. The list is biased and practically stipulates that no one in history ever had a clue about what's right and what's wrong in the sense of behavior and society, but today, somehow, we have it all figured out.

There's toxic masculinity out there, a lot of it probably, but this list isn't it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No offense, but this list here is BS. Sure, some of it does make sense, but the rest either infringes upon general freedoms and choices, isn't just a male trait, or just hinges on some idea of a utopia rather than the real world.

Not all of what is perceived as traditional masculinity is toxic masculinity. The list is biased and practically stipulates that no one in history ever had a clue about what's right and what's wrong in the sense of behavior and society, but today, somehow, we have it all figured out.

There's toxic masculinity out there, a lot of it probably, but this list isn't it.

It seems that the definition of "toxic masculinity" is a man who doesn't act like a woman.
Brought to you by the same people who claimed punctuality was white supremacy.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It seems that the definition of "toxic masculinity" is a man who doesn't act like a woman.

There's definitely some of that message in those lists.

I think I edited this post three times already. I swear I will read through the thread properly the next time I post.

 

[Ianus4]

Most people using the phrase "toxic masculinity" are not claiming that masculinity is inherently toxic; they're saying that there are expressions of masculinity that are toxic. That's what's being called out. This type of stuff:

View attachment 2630796

It seems that the definition of "toxic masculinity" is a man who doesn't act like a woman.
Brought to you by the same people who claimed punctuality was white supremacy.

My problem is exactly the opposite of this.
It's sad that many people refer to this as such, since most of these behavioral patterns can be observed just as easily in many women who are not at all masculine. For example, I know of a case among my close acquaintances where, during a marital argument, the wife slapped her husband on several occasions, and he did not retaliate in kind. The woman was middle-class and had a certain social status. Neither her father nor her grandfather was violent, yet it was common in the family to speak disparagingly about men in general (see misandry). Is this what toxic masculinity is?
Toxic masculinity is a misleading term. Because in many people’s minds, the "toxic" part gets erased, and "masculinity" is equated with these bad behavioral patterns.
And it’s also a devilish term because it makes it impossible to reduce the massive prevalence of physical or psychological violence committed by women against men. Not talking about marital violence committed by women, and even mocking it: well, that is truly patriarchy and sexism, but do only men commit this?
Homophobia and transphobia: JKR? The issue of trans people using public restrooms and being placed in prison? The latter could mean a death sentence for a trans woman. Is toxic masculinity fueling this issue?
Are we sure that every mother is so happy when her daughter wants to be a wrestler, or say, a car mechanic?
Calling these things toxic masculinity is like associating certain crimes with a specific skin color, religion, or ethnicity.

It’s just a sad joke that there’s a translation program that translates "misandry" as "misogyny" in certain languages.

But the answer is simple: there are good and bad people in every gender.